2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[macy]

Why doesn't she try doing a 3lutz-3 loop, or a triple lutz-half loop-triple flip? I am not impressed with 3t-3t-3t....and I am skeptical adding a tano or rippon makes the jump harder, so many younger girls can do it and Maria sotskova added hers in such a short time.....it's harder to take off on the right edge, and girls who can't jump properly should get penalized heavily......why isn't this happening? The scoring system is so stupid.

it makes the jump MUCH harder, it throws your entire center of gravity much higher than when you do a jump with your arms pulled in as normal. it requires a whole lot more core strength to stabilize through the takeoff and into the air, so you have a good landing. if you put too much effort when raising your arms on the takeoff, there's a good chance you're going to miss the jump because you're leaning out of the circle. just because a lot of skaters can do it doesn't mean it isn't challenging.

 

[temadd]

Why doesn't she try doing a 3lutz-3 loop, or a triple lutz-half loop-triple flip? I am not impressed with 3t-3t-3t....and I am skeptical adding a tano or rippon makes the jump harder, so many younger girls can do it and Maria sotskova added hers in such a short time.....it's harder to take off on the right edge, and girls who can't jump properly should get penalized heavily......why isn't this happening? The scoring system is so stupid.

Seriously, we have a 15 yr US skater who can jump like that and you're complaining? I am so impressed by the speed she carries all the way through. I was at nationals and was awestruck by her talent and you should be too.

 

[mrrice]

Has Polina Edmunds retired?

 

[creaturelover]

Has Polina Edmunds retired?

As far as I know there has been no official announcement

 

[Cindy1983]

Here's what I think.

First, I think that more fundamental to consistency is CONFIDENCE. US skaters need confidence which will help thier consistency. One thing that they can do is have them execute skills in pressure situations. Another thing is that they can do is all involved can ACCEPT THAT MISTAKES WILL HAPPEN. It's wrong to dump skaters once they make mistakes. It not only shakes the confidence of the cast-off skater, but ends up in the minds of current and future stars. It then affects confidence, a domino which falls into consistency. It's a recipe for failure. Harder elements equal more mistakes. To be fair, though, I think they feel the need to course correct when hype doesn't pan out and go too far.

I've been incredibly critical of UR deduction because there's no guarantee that it is taken consistently across skaters. It's an honour system in every sense of the term because it's not seen with the naked eye. I do agree with Johnny that anyone can go out, fully rotate something and fall.

There's a lot of talk about nationalized system in the wake of the gymnastics scandal. A nationalised system is not bad in and of itself. What were bad were the ABUSES. I read about it. The girls would inflict injuries on themselves to not have to go to the ranch. Something was CLEARLY wrong. What I wanted to point out was that many of the gymnasts were under 20 (and the ones that did came back after LONG breaks). UCLA gymnastics coach Valerie Kondos-Field said she heard horror stories about the ranch. Anyway, girls in thier teens are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to control than a woman in her 20s. This brings me to the Russian Eteri school. It's very telling that the 2 rivals were 18 & 15. If Medeva sticks around, she'll be 21 or 22. Young phenoms are easy to control. It's the difference between a Zagitova (15) and a Wagner (24). Ease of control requires that the controlled not (or very rarely) question you. I also think that some of it had to do with the Karoyi's background in the Soviet system. This was a very brutal win-at-all-costs system. If the cost was the athlete's physical, mental and emotional well being, so be it. All the Eastern Bloc countries participated. A prime example is East Germany which juiced their athletes at 6-, 7-, and 8-year's-old, basically messing up their secondary sex characteristics. This mentality clearly carried over to the States. I do wonder if aspects of the Russian system mimic it's Soviet past. You CAN nationalize the system w/o the abuses of a win-at-all-costs culture.

 

[klutzy]

Last thing I read about Edmonds regarding her skating was an interview with her school paper. Her plan was to keep skating with the idea of training full time when she graduates. I expect the injury is still a big question mark. She needs her flip and lutz. Weird to have a skater who can do a triple-triple, but can't do a flip.

I agree with Cyndy above that a lot of the issue with the American women is confidence--there's a lot of pressure on them to rescue American skating and it's too much. To succeed, you've got to be able to fail and then figure out how to deal with that. Davis/White had some disastrous skates (Sorry, Charlie) before they became the never-fail champions they became before 2014. I've sometimes wondered if Polina's on-ice poise was because she stayed in school and trained at home. She had a strong support network--I think it helped her last season when getting back her skills had to be grim and frustrating.

 

[concorde]

it makes the jump MUCH harder, it throws your entire center of gravity much higher than when you do a jump with your arms pulled in as normal. it requires a whole lot more core strength to stabilize through the takeoff and into the air, so you have a good landing. if you put too much effort when raising your arms on the takeoff, there's a good chance you're going to miss the jump because you're leaning out of the circle. just because a lot of skaters can do it doesn't mean it isn't challenging.

Not always. For some skaters it is actually easier becuase requires the skater to tighten up which in turn provides better jumping position in the air. It may also have to do with the individual skater's technique and adaptable it is to the variation.

 

[concorde]

Why doesn't she try doing a 3lutz-3 loop, or a triple lutz-half loop-triple flip? I am not impressed with 3t-3t-3t....and I am skeptical adding a tano or rippon makes the jump harder, so many younger girls can do it and Maria sotskova added hers in such a short time.....it's harder to take off on the right edge, and girls who can't jump properly should get penalized heavily......why isn't this happening? The scoring system is so stupid.

The combination you just requested is apparently the hardest combination for all skaters - I believe Zag is about the only lady that can do it. Adding a loop as the second jump in combination is ALOT harder than adding a toe.

 

[sinnerspinner]

Thank you skylark! It looked to me like Mirai gave up the second she popped the axel. I understand that she wanted to finally show some joy in her skating but smiling during Miss Saigon - a tragic love story? The whole program felt very disingenuous and I am puzzled that no one has pointed that out.

I'm trying to sympathize with Mirai, but she came across as not serious. I like mirai a lot, but that program was dreadful!

Sometimes in class I make a nervous smile when I make mistakes. I wish Mirai hadn't done that at the OLYMPICS!!!

This is true and it's actually quite sad. My first and favorite ballet teacher was Russian and she was very strict. Parents were not allowed in class until we had recitals. I see that Dance Mom show and I can't believe the way those parents behave. There's no amount of money that could get me to teach a rude, or disrespectful child. If a parent want's to discuss things, they made appointments. I remember a mom storming into class one day and our teacher told her to take her daughter and leave.

Teaching is difficult enough without having to play baby sitter for rude parents or disrespectful kids. Once you get to the elite level you need understand that time is money and if that's not for you, go somewhere else.

Bring it, as well. The kids often had more sense than the moms. Sometimes I think the moms were vicariously living through their kids and wouldn't let the kids thrive in their own way.

Why pay someone $$$ and not value their expertise?

 

[LiamForeman]

Bring it, as well. The kids often had more sense than the moms. Sometimes I think the moms were vicariously living through their kids and wouldn't let the kids thrive in their own way.

Why pay someone $$$ and not value their expertise?

I started realizing this in the 90s. A young skater, and I know I am generalizing, is someone who is extremely driven and competitive, and they got that from SOMEWHERE. Enter, the Helicopter Parent. I think, yes there are the Marjorie Chins, but when I grew up in the 70s and 80s, no one wanted a helicopter parent, and in my case they were too busy to spend all their time hanging out at the gymn, tennis court, pool, whatever. They would be embarrassed to just sit there with nothing to do but watch their kid practice, and would NEVER have approached a coach. This really has changed. But now that it is soooo expensive to skate competitively, I can sorta see why parents want more control. I don't agree with it, but then again I would never put my kid in such an expensive sport where there really cannot be any expectation of recuperating your money. And they better have already saved up for the college fund, because you can't even get a meaningful scholarship from skating. Tennis or golf, or swimming is what I'd encourage. I'd never be a Helicopter Parent. Yeah, maybe after a broken arm or leg I'd become a PARENT and say NOPE no more. I'm sure this is across the board. Even my school teacher friends complain to me about the HeliParent. They have no respect for the teaching profession, and if Brilliant Briana makes a B it's somehow the teacher's fault... eeek.

 

[sidwich]

I started realizing this in the 90s. A young skater, and I know I am generalizing, is someone who is extremely driven and competitive, and they got that from SOMEWHERE. Enter, the Helicopter Parent. I think, yes there are the Marjorie Chins, but when I grew up in the 70s and 80s, no one wanted a helicopter parent, and in my case they were too busy to spend all their time hanging out at the gymn, tennis court, pool, whatever. They would be embarrassed to just sit there with nothing to do but watch their kid practice, and would NEVER have approached a coach. This really has changed.

The great tradition of the Crazy Skating Parent goes back decades, unfortunately. Certainly back in my day, Tiffany Chin's mother was considered the epitome of Crazy Skating Mom, verbally abusing Tiffany and everyone around her in the name of furthering her career. I think there's a really good argument that she ruined it instead when she refused to let Tiffany get treatment for her injuries and claimed she was going to heal them herself. (Really!)

Older skating fans usually say Peggy Fleming's mom was the ultimate Crazy Skating mother, driving a long line of coaches crazy, firing a lot of them, and sometimes leaving Peggy coachless. (Fortunately, Peggy's insane talent won out in the end).

I've heard Dick Button's mother was fairly involved in his skating as well, but that's well before my time...

We've had threads on the Crazy Parents of skating history in the past. Unfortunately, it seems like overly controlling parents who live vicariously through their kids transcend any space or time period.

 

[klutzy]

The thing about crazy (blank) parents is that at the early stages of the game, it kind of works. The kid gets pushed harder and more effort is invested and, in the early stages, those two things compensate for natural differences in ability. I did and my kid does theatre, so I've seen stage moms as a performer and as a fellow parent. Stage moms will talk to the director more, get on the local theatre board and make shows are picked that will showcase their little star. It's enough so that you sometimes wonder if you're shortchanging your kid by not being more obnoxious.

But my take is that you want your kid to be a functional adult who doesn't hate you. And, honestly, a career in any really competitive fields takes toughness and resilience--the kid has to want it more than the parent. When it comes to the insanely high-pressure context of skating (years of effort coming down to four minutes balanced on knife blades on ice), I think a skater has to skate for him or herself on some level. This year, I felt like I saw that with Adam Rippon (going to the Olympics was his dream, not his mom's), Mirai Nagasu (learning a triple axel in her mid 20s) and Bradie Tennell (She knew she could do it--thus, her Korean SD--even though no one else did.).

 

[topaz emerald]

You have just defined the problem with US figure skating fans in a nut shell. A young Junior level skater who’s done just one JGP does something impressive and you dismiss her because she’s not at the level of a Olympic Gold Medalist.

How about you let her learn these combos? There is no rush! How about we allow US girls be kids and develop into future champs and stop demanding they be absolutely everything out the gate. The world won’t end if we just allow one 14 year old kid to develop her skills over time.

the problem is not the fans, the problem is the stupid judging system.....nothing wrong with what I said. How about trying hardo combos? what' wrong with that? a 3toe/3toe is not up to par with her foreign competitors, unless the judges miraculously give her high marks with this combo. I know the world won't end and I could care less...just giving my input, especially with what her foreign competitors are putting out there, how about actually trying to challenge them?

 

[topaz emerald]

Why are you not impressed.... these are the hardest and best combos we have seen in practice from a US girl in a while... maybe ever.

she will impress me if she can beat the russians and japanese.

 

[topaz emerald]

The combination you just requested is apparently the hardest combination for all skaters - I believe Zag is about the only lady that can do it. Adding a loop as the second jump in combination is ALOT harder than adding a toe.

I think hers is cheated, she prerotates before she gets off in the air on the 3 toe, and I'm skeptical of her edge takeoff on her lutz, it's not clear cut. Anyway, I haven't seen a US lady or any lady attempt a triple lutz half lool triple flip....what Vincent Zhou did on his last jump combo in his LP at Olympics....I think that's probably even harder than a lutz-loop.

 

[frida80]

the problem is not the fans, the problem is the stupid judging system.....nothing wrong with what I said. How about trying hardo combos? what' wrong with that? a 3toe/3toe is not up to par with her foreign competitors, unless the judges miraculously give her high marks with this combo. I know the world won't end and I could care less...just giving my input, especially with what her foreign competitors are putting out there, how about actually trying to challenge them?

Yes the fans are the problem. There is a lot of problems with the scoring system, but you’re the one that’s upset that a first year junior with next to no international experience isn’t cracking off loop combo like Alina. US ladies don’t move at the pace of Russian juniors. Ting will get to that level in good time. Back off.

 

[Shayuki]

I think hers is cheated, she prerotates before she gets off in the air on the 3 toe, and I'm skeptical of her edge takeoff on her lutz, it's not clear cut. Anyway, I haven't seen a US lady or any lady attempt a triple lutz half lool triple flip....what Vincent Zhou did on his last jump combo in his LP at Olympics....I think that's probably even harder than a lutz-loop.

BTW, this is a pointless combo for ladies without quads or 3As. There's no sense in doing a x-1Lo-3F over x-1Lo-3S. It's unnecessarily difficult for no benefit. That said, I also think a 3T-3T-3T is even more pointless a combo. There's no place for 3T as the first jump for any serious lady and it's just an unnecessary handicap. Gabrielle Daleman is the frontrunner of that combo, obviously. A usual free program that hits max levels might have a base value of 62 points, give or take a bit depending on backloading and the specific jumps. Gabrielle Daleman's free skate has a base value of 60.68. Still, her other combo was quite impressive. Asking for a +3Lo combo is pretty unnecessary at this point in time. It oftentimes isn't worth the effort, it only gives 0.8 extra points.

To me, Ting Cui is quite a promising skater and she's a ray of hope for the American ladies at this point in time. She is my favorite when it comes to the junior skaters. Of course, Alysa Liu is one thing, but she will not be age eligible until the 2021-2022 season(Just in time for Olympics). And really, Ting's jumps are at a decent level. Performing 7 triple programs is all you can ask for at this point in time.

 

[hippomoomin]

Here's what I think.

First, I think that more fundamental to consistency is CONFIDENCE. US skaters need confidence which will help thier consistency. One thing that they can do is have them execute skills in pressure situations. Another thing is that they can do is all involved can ACCEPT THAT MISTAKES WILL HAPPEN. It's wrong to dump skaters once they make mistakes. It not only shakes the confidence of the cast-off skater, but ends up in the minds of current and future stars. It then affects confidence, a domino which falls into consistency. It's a recipe for failure. Harder elements equal more mistakes. To be fair, though, I think they feel the need to course correct when hype doesn't pan out and go too far.

I don't think confidence is the ultimate factor, because confidence does not come from nowhere; Eteri's students have confidence because they do many run- throughs and they skate clean, or even had harder jumps in their run-throughs. So unless US ladies have lots of clean run-through in practice, or have a very good success rate in their practice, there won't be "consistency." But if consistency means always skate the same quality/clean jumps, US ladies may well have good consistency, they are just consistently not having clean skates, or what they skate in competition are just a reflection of what they skate on an average day of practice. Landing a jump by itself is far-from landing it in the program other elements. The only skater I can think of confidence being the major factor is Gracie.

 

[frida80]

I don't think confidence is the ultimate factor, because confidence does not come from nowhere; Eteri's students have confidence because they do many run- throughs and they skate clean, or even had harder jumps in their run-throughs. So unless US ladies have lots of clean run-through in practice, or have a very good success rate in their practice, there won't be "consistency." But if consistency means always skate the same quality/clean jumps, US ladies may well have good consistency, they are just consistently not having clean skates, or what they skate in competition are just a reflection of what they skate on an average day of practice. Landing a jump by itself is far-from landing it in the program other elements. The only skater I can think of confidence being the major factor is Gracie.

Tons of skaters can do clean practices. What matters is that they can deliver under pressure. Eteri skaters know that if they don’t, there’s five skaters that can take their place. It’s that internal competition that translates into their uncanny consistency.

Our ladies aren’t challenged as much. The lack of depth and lack of internal competitions leads to inconsistent skaters.

 

[Cindy1983]

I know that internal competition can push competitors, but that's not the end all be all. Sometimes the motivation is found from within. What motivated Mirai to even learn a triple axel? No one in the US was doing it. Yes, her external motivation was the Olympics, but she needed to improve to get there. There was a lot of internal motivation to get better, especially when many had written her off. Also I think this quote by Teddy Roosevelt is instructive (as well as an answer to any snarky 'well she missed it in the individual' posters):
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/it_is_not_the_critic_who_counts-not_the_man_who/12121.html

Other things play into confidence, not just clean skates and good practices. This goes back to what happened with Kimmie Meisner. She was put in the position where she had to prove that her success wasn't a fluke and was cast off the minute she failed and some new young skater came along. This kills confidence. This created a CULTURE where this became the norm. Knowing you can be cast off the minute you fail or are less than perfect, creates an atmosphere that kills confidence. The fruit of this was what happened with Gracie Gold. Failure happens. You learn to work through it. That said, TPTB need to be more supportive and not so quick to cast aside skaters who fail.

There are debates about nationalising the system which isn't a bad idea. Incentivising hard skills is good. However, the CULTURE has to change because this is a recipe for failure. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and wxpecting different results.