As far as Nathan is concerned, he is a man with few words, and he mean what he say. I will just put it like that.
Also, that msg is private to his Japanese Fan club, I am not even sure if it is allowed to post link here or elsewhere.
2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
As far as Nathan is concerned, he is a man with few words, and he mean what he say. I will just put it like that.
Also, that msg is private to his Japanese Fan club, I am not even sure if it is allowed to post link here or elsewhere.
USFS does give certain skaters the benefit of the doubt and other skaters always have to be clean to get the same "love." It happens at the lower levels as much as with the upper levels and both with the men and ladies. To not see that, you are wearing some foggy glasses.
I grant that sometimes it is much easier to overlook when your own fav gets the benefit which turns into tiny "extras" that are added together can effect final placement. But it is real.
I grant that sometimes it is much easier to overlook when your own fav gets the benefit which turns into tiny "extras" that are added together can effect final placement. But it is real.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
The more intense the competition is, the more obnoxious the fans get about "how hard" it is for their "underscored" favorites and "how easy" it is for the "overscored" skaters they don't like as much. We get it - everyone is afraid that their particular favorites won't make the team, so you want to de-legitimize their competition ahead of time. It's rude and negative and it's a plague on this thread.
As far as I'm concerned, every US man has fought hard and 100% deserves everything they have achieved. When USFS gives some skaters the benefit of the doubt, it's because they have proven themselves in the past - they've essentially earned that benefit of the doubt (such as Ashley in 2014, or Jason last year going to Worlds over Vincent). Pretending otherwise is bitterness and insecurity over the ability of any individual favorites to make the Olympic/World team.
As far as I'm concerned, every US man has fought hard and 100% deserves everything they have achieved. When USFS gives some skaters the benefit of the doubt, it's because they have proven themselves in the past - they've essentially earned that benefit of the doubt (such as Ashley in 2014, or Jason last year going to Worlds over Vincent). Pretending otherwise is bitterness and insecurity over the ability of any individual favorites to make the Olympic/World team.
Was that directed at me? My comment was general in nature.
At one time Jason was the underdog. El Henry isn't wrong that USFS did not see Jason has a big contender in the past -- there is the story of how they actually asked Kori & Co. to consider keeping him junior internationally during the Sochi season. Thankfully they didn't take USFS advice and we all saw what happened.
But I don't think that's his status now. He's the only Olympian among this group of contenders and he gets the cache for it. He is well-regarded by USOC and other Olympians and Olympic hopefuls and he even has some sponsors this season. A total 180 from four years ago.
He hasn't made that *big* international breakout yet, which is what a lot of people were expecting from him after his initial breakout in 2014. He hasn't won any ISU championship medals or made GPF. That's where the lack of quad(s) is really hurting him. Fourth at Worlds 2015 was nice, but you don't get a pewter medal for that.
That said, his reputation among the international judges, even with being out a full season and having a few bad competition segments (see 2015 4CC SP, 2016 NHK Trophy overall and 2017 4CC SP), is strong and they like his overall aesthetic. He is only one of three skaters so far this season to score 90+ PCS in the free skate (Javi and Shoma being the two others. Hanyu would be there too if not for his problem FS at Autumn Classic and Nathan was also close with 88 PCS at U.S. Classic).
The discussion/view comes down to this: Nathan has already experienced rapid international breakthroughs due his strong technical content last season, making/medaling at GPF and winning 4CC. It's natural that people will think Vincent will do the same thing.
With Jason, it's a matter whether you think he's peaked internationally -- hence all the potential talk with team selection. I don't think Jason hasn't shown the best of what he can do but if people think there's an expiration date when someone can master a quad jump, then I can see why some think otherwise (4th at Worlds sans the quad wunderkids is the best he can do). IMO not everyone takes the fast train to pinnacle success.
But I don't think that's his status now. He's the only Olympian among this group of contenders and he gets the cache for it. He is well-regarded by USOC and other Olympians and Olympic hopefuls and he even has some sponsors this season. A total 180 from four years ago.
He hasn't made that *big* international breakout yet, which is what a lot of people were expecting from him after his initial breakout in 2014. He hasn't won any ISU championship medals or made GPF. That's where the lack of quad(s) is really hurting him. Fourth at Worlds 2015 was nice, but you don't get a pewter medal for that.
That said, his reputation among the international judges, even with being out a full season and having a few bad competition segments (see 2015 4CC SP, 2016 NHK Trophy overall and 2017 4CC SP), is strong and they like his overall aesthetic. He is only one of three skaters so far this season to score 90+ PCS in the free skate (Javi and Shoma being the two others. Hanyu would be there too if not for his problem FS at Autumn Classic and Nathan was also close with 88 PCS at U.S. Classic).
The discussion/view comes down to this: Nathan has already experienced rapid international breakthroughs due his strong technical content last season, making/medaling at GPF and winning 4CC. It's natural that people will think Vincent will do the same thing.
With Jason, it's a matter whether you think he's peaked internationally -- hence all the potential talk with team selection. I don't think Jason hasn't shown the best of what he can do but if people think there's an expiration date when someone can master a quad jump, then I can see why some think otherwise (4th at Worlds sans the quad wunderkids is the best he can do). IMO not everyone takes the fast train to pinnacle success.
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- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
I agree with Jaana (surprise!) that it's far too early to predict much. One thing I learned from watching Nathan last season was not to judge too quickly: At Finlandia, he was pretty much a sloppy mess; by Nats, he looked far better. Right now, Adam is coming back from injury, Vincent is plagued with < and (IMO) still appears "juniorish", Max is trying to integrate a 4T and improved presentation but is not fully there yet, and Jason, as he has for the past few years, is struggling to land quads in competition and make something of a SP that he strongly believes in but that seems problematic to many. Which of these guys makes the team will depend on who improves the most by Nats.
But as to your point about "favored" skaters being "held up" and young "upstarts" being held back, frankly I don't see a lot of evidence of that. For example, starting with Finlandia last season, Nathan placed quite high at almost all of his competitions. It's funny that you cite Jin and Kolyada as "established" skaters who might have been held up over Vincent here, because only a couple of years ago, they were the upstarts - and they - like Shoma - pretty much shot to the top as soon as they showed what they could do. If you're specifically talking about PCS: I'd say that IMO a lot of those guys were marked on the low side initially because they were fresh out of juniors and their presentation reflected it. To their credit, all of them, and especially Boyang, have worked hard and improved in that area.
How fast Vincent will improve and deserve PCS and GOE higher than what he got at Finlandia is an open question, but it's the important one for me in terms of assessing his potential to medal at the Olympics. The fact that he won the FS at Finlandia and silver overall is nice, but neither his SP/FS performances nor his scores would be competitive at a championship event, where the winning totals are likely to be 300+ - quite a bit higher than the 250 he scored here. Perhaps Vincent, like Nathan, will improve to the 300+ level by February, but at this point, it's a bit early to say.
Again, I agree with most of what you've said here.
I feel as though I've become head cheerleader for Vincent, and that was really not my intent. I am, however, impressed with his skating this season. I still maintain that his FS result at Finlandia was impressive, and that he and his team should be very encouraged.
Regarding the score: Yes, I agree that the performance he gave will not be enough in big events at the end of the season. But, he certainly has potential to score much higher. I'm going from memory here, but I think in SP he had a hand down on <4Z and a virtual fall on 3A. In FS, he had a sketchy <4Z and a popped 3A. If I'm remembering correctly, there was another big jump fail, but I can't be sure. There's plenty of room for TES to climb. And, as you correctly point out, the PCS will have to improve over the course of the season. Will all of that be enough to gain an extra 50 points? I don't know, but for sure he can get better.
One place that does need clarification:
My point was not that favored skaters were being held up. Quite the opposite. I said that the Finlandia FS result indicated that favored skaters would NOT be held up. Or, at least they weren't at this competition.
Everyone has an opinion, and I certainly have mine: At this point in the season, with the baselines we've seen and reasonable expectations of how programs can grow, my betting-favorites for the Olympic Team are Nathan, Vincent, and Max.
But take note: I am fickle. I "fanboy" for very few skaters, and none of them are currently competing.
None of these skaters are my family; there are no unbreakable bonds of loyalty. I'll switch my rooting interest in a heartbeat should they falter and someone else step up to the plate.
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- Aug 12, 2014
This is totally false. I was there. Adam Rippon absolutely did deserve the National title. Everyone in the audience knew it. A majority of the judges agreed.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Not directed at anyone specifically - just in general, there seems to be major pattern of posters tearing down specific skaters who are deemed as threats to their favorites.
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- Aug 12, 2014
Wha-a-a-a-t? You mean that ever happens? Surely not. :sarcasm:
Wouldn't that be unjust, unfair, and contrary to a healthy spirit of competition?
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- Jul 9, 2014
I love this comment and here's why. Even if you've skated in your own rink and "think" you can tell by watching an event on television, you really can't. When I saw Todd Eldredge in person, I had NEVER heard edges that deep. Even my coach didn't have edges that sounded like that. It was after seeing in him 1991 that I became obsessed with a skaters edge quality. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a live event in years but, Adam looked great at Finlandia and if he deserves it, he should go.
I think we all want our best skaters to represent us at the games and with the depth of the US Men, I can guarantee that someone will go home disappointed. I just hope that Nationals is a well skated event and if someone has the performance of a lifetime, I hope they make the team.
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- Jan 28, 2013
I'm going to take your word for it - that it was much better in person than it seemed on the TV.
Because I've got to tell you, my impression on first viewing was that the result was wrong. I rewatched several times afterwards, and my opinion didn't change.
I'd be interested in knowing if your opinion changed after rewatching it on video - although I guess it's not fair to suppose you could objectively dismiss what you perceived watching it in person.
Edit: Of course, without a time machine it is impossible for me to perform the experiment in reverse. I'll never have the chance to see that competition live.
I don't think Adam is the best example as someone that has amazing skating skills. Great choreography, yes. Great performer, yes. Skating skills? Not really. Now that's not to say he doesn't have good skating skills -- they are perfectly fine for elite level skating -- but superior skating skills to the rest of the field? No.
The best U.S. man currently competing in SS is Ross Miner. That doesn't change even if he misses jumps or messes up his programs. Watch Ross' actual skating and ignore the jump attempts and mute the music. He manages to get to one side of the rink to the other with a lot of multi-directional skating.
(Although if your point mrrice is less about SS and just about the difference in general between live/video, then I do support you there )
That said, Adam seemed to have two very electric performances in 2016 and that may have influenced the judges a bit. It's natural. I do think that if the difference between Adam winning and getting silver was his calls on the 4Z then there is room for debate on that result. There is a reasonable spectrum between saying "GIFTED" to "absolutely no question" regarding this.
The best U.S. man currently competing in SS is Ross Miner. That doesn't change even if he misses jumps or messes up his programs. Watch Ross' actual skating and ignore the jump attempts and mute the music. He manages to get to one side of the rink to the other with a lot of multi-directional skating.
(Although if your point mrrice is less about SS and just about the difference in general between live/video, then I do support you there )
That said, Adam seemed to have two very electric performances in 2016 and that may have influenced the judges a bit. It's natural. I do think that if the difference between Adam winning and getting silver was his calls on the 4Z then there is room for debate on that result. There is a reasonable spectrum between saying "GIFTED" to "absolutely no question" regarding this.
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- Jan 28, 2013
This is a sensible post. I agree that he is an excellent "pure" skater.
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Thanks! Also I didn't mean to edit your post -- I meant to edit mine. All I did was edit the part in my quote.
Also Jeremy Abbott's Japan Open skate from this past weekend is worth watching. The jumps weren't quite there, but there is some lovely skating and performing.
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- Aug 12, 2014
If you meant to chide me, Mrs P, I'll point out that karne's post used the words "absolutely did not deserve." I countered that with my own "absolutely did deserve."
I also think there's a negative connotation to saying someone was "gifted" with a title, meaning the title wasn't earned. It would be surprising to me if people thought otherwise. It seems to me the connotation is intentional and clear. But as always, YMMV.
Not trying to point fingers at all. I am speaking to the viewpoints regarding that particular Nationals result. I think there's an reasonable argument to say that Adam may have benefited from some technical panel calls that could have impacted the final result. A lot of people disagreed with Jason's national win in 2015 too. I don't think it should be seen as an afront to that skater just that people would have judged things differently given the knowledge and facts we have.
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- Mar 23, 2014
It's one thing to say "I disagree with this result because X, Y, Z." That kind of debate is absolutely wonderful. What comes off much more angry and negative is "Skater X was gifted the title they didn't deserve" or "Skater Y was robbed of the title they 100% did deserve," as if whoever ought to win and lose at figure skating is objective and indisputable - or somehow the competition was "fixed."
Figure skating is subjective - that's what makes it both wonderful and terrible.
But even then people have factual basis for that angry/negative reaction. You may not agree with the wording/the tone, but the underlying concern is there. It's best to just respond the claim at face value and not attack the person for having that opinion or the way they stated that opinion(even if you don't like the tone).
(Besides...insulting other posters is against guidelines anyway.
)
A question on the Olympic team selection: assuming that Nathan will go (barring total disaster) and that he is in contention for an individual medal, do you think that the federation will have him skate in both the SP and LP events for the team competition or, as it seems more reasonable, they will try to save him for the big day? In the second case, who would be, as of now (I know, a bit premature before even GP season), the best candidate for a team medal shot? Do you think that these considerations will impact on the selection of the 3 mens at Nationals?
The men's competition is not too much longer after the team event. I believe it's about a week later.
I don't think the team event will have much impact until after the team is selected, in other words, once they know who is going, they'll decide who will do the team event. If the men is split, I think it will be whoever has the top international scores in each segment.
I think will also depend on how much that person can help. Davis and White did both in Sochi, but I think it's because it was clear that was a guaranteed first place. If they feel like having Nathan will help firm a medal placement in the team event, then they'll have him do both. On the other hand, D&W had a much more secure medal position than Nathan probably would have, so there's that consideration.
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