2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[concorde]

No, I don't think it would be unfair, because the only two in the body of work scenario that he would lose to on the basis of Worlds experience would be Nathan and Jason, who are both better skaters, so it's irrelevant. Only 2017 Worlds counts, as I understand it.

I think it's unfair to equate a JWC with a top-10 finish at Senior Worlds. I think it's unfair to proclaim that a JWC somehow automatically makes him a lock when that has never happened before for a Senior Championship assignment. I think it's unfair to proclaim him a lock when his SB is only fourth of the US men and barely a point above the fifth. I think it's unfair to proclaim he should be sent on the basis of his jumps when he can't damn well rotate them. I think it's unfair to proclaim that he should be sent "for the future" while Max and Adam should be left off as "the past" when neither of those two were ever chosen for a Senior team "for the future".

And as I said - in 2014 no-one gave a damn about the JWC, and he was a much better skater than Vincent. Should have even had the bronze medal the previous Nationals. Now suddenly it's an all-important justification for a technically inferior skater? Damn right I'm not buying it!

Well at Nationals last year, the judges disagreed with your opinion. They thought Vincent as the 2nd best overall skater and awarded him the silver.

And that is what makes figure skating so exciting! On any given day, you have a bunch of skaters that potentially could place high and it becomes a question of who is the best at that particular time. If you shift the event a day, chances are you would get a different outcome.

I have never said that Vincent should be given an Olympic spot. I just think that if he finishes top 3 at Nationals, he should definately be sent to the Olympics over any skater who has a better "body of work" but finishes below him at Nationals.

 

[el henry]

Whether you think it is "unfair" to take Jason's placement at Worlds over Vincent depends entirely on what you think of the decision to send Jason to Worlds.... So let's go back in time and space

It is completely ethical to take Jason's placement at 2017 Worlds into consideration. Just in case anyone has forgotten my brilliant and stellar arguments USFS did NOT disregard Vincent's placement, "hold back" a stellar young gun, or promote sentimentality in the 2017 Worlds selection. The skater who finished second at 2017 Nationals was *not eligible* to go to senior Worlds. Therefore, rather than give that skater special treatment by holding a slot open and assigning him to a senior B so he could actually go out and qualify, USFS chose to select the highest placing skater who was actually eligible at the time of team selection.

So, from this point of view, it would not be "unethical" to take Jason's placement at 2017 Worlds into consideration over Vincent, any more than it would be unethical to take Jason's placement at Worlds over Ross, Grant, Max or any other senior male skater who did not have the opportunity to skate at Worlds.

That being said, I would be most happy with the top three at Nats.
If that is Ross, Sean Rabbit and Adam, (trying to think of "older" skaters), fine and dandy.
If that is Nathan, Alex K. and Vincent (trying to think of "younger" skaters), fine and dandy.

And I definitely do NOT think any spots for the Olys should be treated as some kind of farm team for "promising" skaters. As we Phila. Eagles fans now say, "next man up".:agree:

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker, first time poster. Let me preface this by saying I'm in no way a Vincent Zhou fan, in fact I much prefer Jason, Ross, and Adam as overall skaters, and I'm also a fan of Max. However, the need to disparage Vincent's accomplishments and discredit his results thus far is not okay. First, Vincent has only under-rotated one quad at Finlandia (according to the tech callers and judges, whose opinions matter much more than a fan typing away in a forum.) It is unfair to Vincent to repeatedly bash him for under-rotated quads, when it only happened once in the SP of Finlandia. It also unfair to judge the guy based on one performance in his first major senior competition. I remember reading this forum last year and seeing similar posts about Nathan and this same poster disparaging his accomplishments and calling him 'USFSA's new toy.' It is apparent that these 'new' kids are a threat to the old guard, but they have worked extremely hard and are landing much harder quads more consistently than other senior men. Everyone deserves a fair shot at the olympic team and ALL the senior men must earn their spot. There is no need to tear down and bash another skater to build up your favorite, their accomplishments will speak for themselves. If Vincent has a a successful grandprix series and skates well at Nationals (top-3), he should be allowed to be on the olympic team. The same is true for all the other senior men including Max. That being said, the only lock for the olympic team is Nathan

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for posting, NathanandMiraifan, and welcome!

 

[andromache]

And as I said - in 2014 no-one gave a damn about the JWC, and he was a much better skater than Vincent.

I didn't know we could use damn on here!

Anyway, I think the JWC has increased in importance over the past few years. This is primarily in the ladies, as the junior ranks are packed with Russian and Japanese ladies who are as good as many senior. Junior men tend to be more awkward, with inferior PCS, and this often stands out when they move up to seniors. But that has changed a bit since Nathan, Shoma, and Boyang (especially Shoma and Boyang) all had very successful seniors during their very first year. Shoma and Boyang were both reigning JWC medalists when they came to seniors, and Boyang won a bronze at his first senior worlds! Nathan had to withdraw from Junior Worlds during the season he was sweeping everything, but he was JGPF champion.

Times change. Juniors are more relevant than ever. Sorry that wasn't the case in 2014.

 

[chuckm]

People are forgetting that Vincent Zhou won the FS at Finlandia and placed 2nd overall, beating Mikhail Kolyada, Michal Brezina, Adam Rippon, and Ross Miner.

Vincent's FS (which scored 173.91): 4z, 4f, 4s, 4t, 3z+2t, 1a, 3a+2t, 3z+1lo+3f

Not a carrot in sight, and pretty darn good for so early in the season.

 

[beki]

I don't want to go the route of viewing judges and callers as infallible. We know they aren't. I think it's fair to side eye lenient technical panels.

 

[karne]

Everyone deserves a fair shot at the olympic team and ALL the senior men must earn their spot.

You're right, of course. Everyone deserves a fair shot at the Olympic team and all the Senior men must earn their spot. Which means no-one is a lock and especially not Vincent. Glad you see my point.

I don't want to go the route of viewing judges and callers as infallible. We know they aren't. I think it's fair to side eye lenient technical panels.

Especially when we know one of those teddy-bear soft panels will be on board at Nationals. Really, Max and Nathan should just go for anything they want at Nationals. It won't matter if they rotate it or not since we know rotation doesn't count at Nationals. Skaters like them get punished for actually rotating.

People are forgetting that Vincent Zhou won the FS at Finlandia and placed 2nd overall, beating Mikhail Kolyada, Michal Brezina, Adam Rippon, and Ross Miner.

With a score lower than Jason's zero-quad (one attempt) TCS at Lombardia, Max's five-quad TCS at SLC, and Nathan's three-quad TCS at SLC.

And he only beat Rippon's zero-quad TCS by a point.

This is my point. You're all carrying on about Vincent supposedly being some sort of lock but neither you nor he have provided any actual grounds for that reasoning. What they have actually done on the ice, meanwhile, shows that Vincent? Not a lock. Not by any means. Not while Jason, Max, Nathan and Adam have breaths in their bodies.

Nobody here cared so much about "for the future!" when the USFS sent a very-much-Senior Joshua and Jason back to Juniors for another year. Nobody here cared so much about "for the future!" when Joshua was bumped down to pewter in favour of an older skater in 2013. Nobody here cared so much about "for the future!" when Joshua and Jason set new scoring records when they dominated Junior Worlds.

And goddammit, nobody cared so much about quads in 2014, when it was already obvious that quads were needed on the World stage, and the USFS chose to promote the "artistic" skaters instead, and dumped their own reigning National champion, the one US man who consistently could.

 

[el henry]

In the immortal words, let me make this perfectly clear.

I have no problem with Vincent. If his skating and his programs and his jumps floats your boat, I'm all for that. I have never re-watched any Vincent program ever, but that's me. You may think he's the greatest skater since Toller. Cheer away

These are the arguments I disagree with:

1. That the USFS has been (post Sochi is my best frame of reference) "holding back" young jump-meisters, and "keeping them down". Particularly in 2017.
I do get aggravated by that happy hoo-hah, :angry1:

2. That Vincent is some kind of lock for the US Oly team, if it just wasn't for that (non-existent) "holding back" and "keeping down". Vincent, if he earns it, good for him. If not, good for those that beat him.

3. That selections for Worlds or heaven forbid the Olys should be based on some sort of "farm team" mentality, rather than sending the best we have at the moment. Really? I have no words.

It's not Vincent per se, but the arguments above.

Back to watching Skate Canada practice vids.......:yay:

 

[TontoK]

I'm NOT saying Vincent is a lock. I'm not even saying Nathan is a lock.

My position is that the top three skaters at US Nationals should be the Olympic/World team. Period. End-of-story. Many, including USFSA do not agree with that, and I respect those views, but I have been consistent.

However, to deny Vincent the chance in 2016 the chance to go to World's... and we all know he could have (and did) meet the qualifying standard in plenty of time... and then to use his lack of World's experience against him would be unfair.

Again to reiterate my position, No Locks. If Vincent or Nathan or Jason or Max or Adam or Grant or Larry the Cable Guy finishes third or better at US Nationals, they should make the team. If they finish lower than third, then better luck in four years.

My best guess (or highest hopes) as to who will make the team? Nathan, Vincent, and Max. Because they're the only US men who have demonstrated the jump content required to be really competitive at a major international event.

 

[Mrs. P]

FWIW, there are some that seem to think that Vincent should be a lock because he is the future and have lots of quads.

I don't think that is a universal opinion, but it's clear that some people feel that way.

I think there were some extraneous circumstances for Jason that led him to be on the 2017 team. I don't see the body-of-work thing applying to him if he's outside the top 3 this time around, unless he really shows up on the GP (i.e. make GPF, mainly).

I do think that people are underestimating Jason a bit. But that's nothing new.

 

[TontoK]

FWIW, there are some that seem to think that Vincent should be a lock because he is the future and have lots of quads.

I don't think that is a universal opinion, but it's clear that some people feel that way.

I think there were some extraneous circumstances for Jason that led him to be on the 2017 team. I don't see the body-of-work thing applying to him if he's outside the top 3 this time around, unless he really shows up on the GP (i.e. make GPF, mainly).

I do think that people are underestimating Jason a bit. But that's nothing new.

First bold: These people are wrong. He's one of my favorites at this moment, but we'll see how the season plays out.

Second bold: Whether I underestimate Jason remains to be seen. No one will be happier than I will be if I'm wrong. And I'll be watching this weekend to see if that's the case. I'll even watch his SP, although I do not like it, jumps or not. I'll definitely watch his LP, because you already know I think it's an artistic masterpiece.

 

[mrrice]

Holy Cow, Jason Brown!!!!! I will admit that I have always preferred Joshua to Jason but, he sure does look good in his practice sessions in Canada. He landed some good quads there and if he can land them in competition........The skies the limit.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9kW94w6O04&feature=youtu.be

 

[sc8]

His current trajectory where his score is the 4th highest of all the current US men?

Sorry, but this "send Vincent for experience!" is absolutely a-word-I-can't-use-on-here.

If he EARNS it, he goes. If he doesn't, he doesn't. End of the matter. Right now, he hasn't earned it. Right now, Max and Jason have both scored higher in international competition. Right now, Max is rotating all of his jumps and Vincent isn't. Right now, if you were to pick on scores, the team would be Nathan, Max and Jason.

Thank you! I agree, let’s let the season unfold. How each does on the Grand Prix will say a lot, but so too should placement at nationals. Nathan clearly looks like a favorite for the US team, but the other two spots are really any one of four men (alphabetical order) depending on how they deliver under the pressure of a tough season: Aaron, Brown, Rippon, Zhou. Admittedly, I would love to see Josh Farris have a magical return and make the Olympics, but I realize that odds are stacked against him. Our men’s team is going to be a very competitive fight and several great skaters will watch on tv like we fans.

 

[Blades of Passion]

karne, the things you say do not have basis in reality. Max Aaron was hardly dumped in 2014, he was picked for the World team over Jason Brown, which was ridiculous. Jason outskated him not only at Nationals and but also overall on the Grand Prix. Quads weren't "not cared about", Max simply did not skate well enough, and yet he was still given a big competition when normally someone wouldn't be. Josh and Jason were both "cared about" after their 2013 Junior Worlds performances as well, not sure what you're trying to say there. And at Nationals that season Jeremy Abbott deserved to place 2nd, Josh was "held down" only in comparison to Ross Miner, who was given preferential treatment because of his Quad.

Quads have always mattered since the 2010-2011 season (look at how Ryan Bradley was given a National title for doing 1 quad that whole competition), but you seem to think they are the only thing that matters. There are other factors in play, skating involves way more, and Max Aaron is the worst of the field in all the non-jump areas. Max hasn't received "better treatment" because even if he does skate clean with his Quads (which are now relatively lackluster compared to all the other quads people are doing), he is not at all a medal contender at the World level.

 

[ice coverage]

Max Aaron was hardly dumped in 2014, he was picked for the World team over Jason Brown, which was ridiculous. Jason outskated him not only at Nationals and but also overall on the Grand Prix. ...

According to the 2014 Worlds selection criteria, it made perfect sense for USFS to choose Max over Jason for Worlds.
Nothing ridiculous at all.

2013 GPs were *not* among the selection criteria for 2014 Worlds.
The selection criteria for 2014 Worlds were not identical to the selection criteria for Sochi.

The 2014 Worlds selection criteria were (in decreasing order of importance):

• 2014 Prudential U.S. Figure Skating Championships
• 2013 ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
• 2013 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
• 2013 ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
• 2013 ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships
• 2013 ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final

Plus the 2014 U.S. champion (i.e., Jeremy) was guaranteed a spot at Worlds.

As Mathman posted:

Looking at the official criteria, it is hard to find fault with the decisions of the USFSA selection committee for 2014 Worlds.

Abbott: U.S. Nationals, 1st. Automatic for Worlds.
Aaron: U,S. Nationals 3rd, 2013 Four Continents 4th, 2013 Worlds 7th
Brown: U.S. Nationals 2nd, 2013 Jr. Worlds 2nd.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...ture-prospects&p=953531&viewfull=1#post953531

 

[Mathman]

Vincent Zhou may not be a "lock," but I'm opening my book now for anyone who wants to bet against him. :yes:

 

[Jammers]

Vincent Zhou may not be a "lock," but I'm opening my book now for anyone who wants to bet against him. :yes:

Vincent last season got off to a slow start but by Nationals then Jr Worlds he was a different skater and got stronger. If he does that again and lands clean quads at Nationals he's going to the Olympics.

 

[skylark]

.... the need to disparage Vincent's accomplishments and discredit his results thus far is not okay. .... I remember reading this forum last year and seeing similar posts about Nathan and this same poster disparaging his accomplishments and calling him 'USFSA's new toy.'

Yes, I remember that as well.

Welcome, NathanandMiraiFan, and thanks for posting.

 

[Seren]

This is early in the season there are few bets I would be willing to make (maybe I'm just frugal!), but barring disaster Nathan is a lock.

On a different note Jason did a really great quad toe in his LP run through. I want him to conquer this demon once and for all, we know from his interviews how he feels about it.