2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Tavi...]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker, first time poster. Let me preface this by saying I'm in no way a Vincent Zhou fan, in fact I much prefer Jason, Ross, and Adam as overall skaters, and I'm also a fan of Max. However, the need to disparage Vincent's accomplishments and discredit his results thus far is not okay. First, Vincent has only under-rotated one quad at Finlandia (according to the tech callers and judges, whose opinions matter much more than a fan typing away in a forum.) It is unfair to Vincent to repeatedly bash him for under-rotated quads, when it only happened once in the SP of Finlandia. It also unfair to judge the guy based on one performance in his first major senior competition. I remember reading this forum last year and seeing similar posts about Nathan and this same poster disparaging his accomplishments and calling him 'USFSA's new toy.' It is apparent that these 'new' kids are a threat to the old guard, but they have worked extremely hard and are landing much harder quads more consistently than other senior men. Everyone deserves a fair shot at the olympic team and ALL the senior men must earn their spot. There is no need to tear down and bash another skater to build up your favorite, their accomplishments will speak for themselves. If Vincent has a a successful grandprix series and skates well at Nationals (top-3), he should be allowed to be on the olympic team. The same is true for all the other senior men including Max. That being said, the only lock for the olympic team is Nathan

Yes, I remember that as well.

Welcome, NathanandMiraiFan, and thanks for posting.

Okay, I'd just like to say something.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and many of us have very strong ones that we're not exactly shy about expressing. If I recall, last year we had about 50 pages of comments on the subject of whether or not Jason should have been sent to Worlds over Vincent, and to be honest, it got pretty ugly at times. The ugliness disturbed me, and it's one reason I post less frequently these days.

I think it's a good idea for all of us to remember that it's difficult to read tone / know the intent behind someone's posts. We should all be able to express our opinions freely. Just because someone expresses a negative opinion you strongly disagree with doesn't mean the post is, or is intended to be, disparaging. People like what they like, and see what they see, and express their opinions in ways you might not. They still have a right to those opinions, and with a few limits, to express themselves in their own ways. Before you characterize someone's words as "bashing" or "tearing someone down" or an attempt to "build up" a favorite, it's a good idea to remember that you may be reading an intent that isn't there, just because you disagree with what's being said, or the way someone said it.

 

[skylark]

=Tavi...;1818735
I think it's a good idea for all of us to remember that it's difficult to read tone / know the intent behind someone's posts.

True. A few times, people have mistaken my tone and intent; a few times I've mistaken others'.

Bitter sarcasm and repeated attacks on particular skaters are a little less difficult to discern.

NathanandMiraifan111 read GS forum posts, and observed the dynamic, for one year before posting. His, or her, first post received 13 thumbs up, so far.

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

Please excuse my language here, as English is not my first language. I agree completely that it is very hard to read intent, and I appreciate everyone's comments on this forum, which is why I have continued to lurk over the last two years and have read through the many comments about figure skating. i have learned a lot about the various aspects of figure skating and the different qualities skaters have that makes them unique through this forum. It was not my intent to mischaracterize anyone's comments as disparaging, and if I am incorrect I would like to sincerely apologize. However, when opinions are based on inaccuracies and are repeated several times in a less than positive tone, I tend to read the comments as denigrating. It is this "feels over reals" response against a skater followed by a platitude towards a person's favorite, that makes a comment sound disparaging. I was here during the Vincent vs Jason debate and I agree that those discussions became very ugly, as people are very passionate about their favorites. In this case, it is different when a lie is repeated to try to make a point to make an "illusion of truth." If people did not know better, they begin to believe the statements. I wanted to point out that certain comments were half-truths or even mostly untrue, and for people to not judge a certain skater so early in the season. We will see how the season turns out for all our favorites, there is no need to pre-judge or misspeak about these very hard working skaters.

 

[Mrs. P]

NathanandMiraifan111, no need to worry! We welcome your thoughts and perspective (within guidelines, of course. ) Welcome to Golden Skate and post often and post long.

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

NathanandMiraifan111, no need to worry! We welcome your thoughts and perspective (within guidelines, of course. ) Welcome to Golden Skate and post often and post long.

Thank you Mrs. P!

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

I don't want to go the route of viewing judges and callers as infallible. We know they aren't. I think it's fair to side eye lenient technical panels.

Beki, I don't want anyone to view judges as infallible, as they are human and often make mistakes. However, we know that USFSA will look at the protocols to determine whether or not a certain skater's quads were rotated. If the protocol does not have any < or only a few <s, this shows that the skater has rotated their most of their quads, at least officially. We can argue about whether or not the official tallies are correct on the forum, but they won't change the calls made on the protocol nor will they make our opinions true if the protocols state the opposite of what were are posting on the forum.

 

[mrrice]

This is why you can never count out Jason Brown!!!......He just took the Silver in Canada beating Patrick Chan and though he didn't land his quad, he did put it out there. The rest of his skating, especially his spins and musicality made the difference. Patrick admittedly, had a bad night with some very uncharacteristic falls. His program is absolutely stunning and he'll be back. Congratulations Jason.........

 

[mindatwork]

While I think Jason is a great skater, and his silver medal today was definitely well deserved, I just wish I liked his programs more. Neither of them work for me for slightly different reasons, which is unfortunate because he does have such lovely skating skills and spins.

Regardless, the way this season (and particularly the Grand Prix series) is going, the GPF might be shaping up a bit differently than I think most people would've initially predicted. Especially for the US men.

 

[karne]

While I think Jason is a great skater, and his silver medal today was definitely well deserved, I just wish I liked his programs more. Neither of them work for me for slightly different reasons, which is unfortunate because he does have such lovely skating skills and spins.

Regardless, the way this season (and particularly the Grand Prix series) is going, the GPF might be shaping up a bit differently than I think most people would've initially predicted. Especially for the US men.

You think he should be looking for a mind at work?

 

[mindatwork]

You think he should be looking for a mind at work?

HAH. No, but that would make a great Exhibition program.

If I had to pick a Hamilton program for him to skate, it'd definitely be Wait for It. Hurricane is also a great song, though I think I liked it better when I saw it in person than on the sound track (sorry Lin!)

 

[karne]

HAH. No, but that would make a great Exhibition program.

If I had to pick a Hamilton program for him to skate, it'd definitely be Wait for It. Hurricane is also a great song, though I think I liked it better when I saw it in person than one the sound track (sorry Lin!)

I would actually go with "What'd I Miss" for Jason, because that sort of super-jazzy upbeat number would do well for him. "Wait for It" for Max, "Yorktown" for Nathan, AND ONE LAST TIME FOR NOBODY KTHXBAI

 

[TontoK]

While I think Jason is a great skater, and his silver medal today was definitely well deserved, I just wish I liked his programs more. Neither of them work for me for slightly different reasons, which is unfortunate because he does have such lovely skating skills and spins.

Regardless, the way this season (and particularly the Grand Prix series) is going, the GPF might be shaping up a bit differently than I think most people would've initially predicted. Especially for the US men.

Expand on this, please. I haven't crossed paths with you before, so nice to meet you!

 

[mindatwork]

Expand on this, please. I haven't crossed paths with you before, so nice to meet you!

Nice to meet you as well! I'm a long time figure skating fan and former skater, who somehow didn't realize this forum existed until recently. I think I was living with my head under a rock.

Re: The GPF. I think most people predicted (or at least I did) that the six skaters in the GPF this season would end up being the top-6 at Worlds from last season, per the assumption that the top two contenders (WR wise) at each event would place at least on the podium, if not first/second. I think Patrick's 4th place finish could shake those settled expectations up a bit. Patrick of course isn't precluded from winding up at the GPF (Nathan qualified last year with a 2nd and 4th place after all), but I think he'd need at least silver in his next event to still be in the running for qualification. Given the field at NHK (Yuzu, Jason, Adam) that might be a tough (though not impossible) ask. And if either Jason and/or Adam podiums at NHK, they're in a good position to qualify. Particularly considering Adam will finish up at Skate America with a hometown crowd.

Obviously it's (a) early in the season/GP series, and (b) this is figure skating/the ice-is-wet/men's events in particular can be super surprising. Plus, we haven't seen how Vincent and Max (or Boyang, or Javi) will fair in their events. But whereas I might've only predicted Nathan of the US men would make it to the finals, I think the door is more open for other US men to qualify as well.

 

[jcmerman]

Holy Cow is right!

Holy Cow, Jason Brown!!!!! I will admit that I have always preferred Joshua to Jason but, he sure does look good in his practice sessions in Canada. He landed some good quads there and if he can land them in competition........The skies the limit.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9kW94w6O04&feature=youtu.be

I wonder what he would've scored had he not left this performance on practice ice? That was a gorgeous quad and it looked pretty easy for him. Thanks for posting!:thumbsup:

 

[TontoK]

Nice to meet you as well! I'm a long time figure skating fan and former skater, who somehow didn't realize this forum existed until recently. I think I was living with my head under a rock.

Re: The GPF. I think most people predicted (or at least I did) that the six skaters in the GPF this season would end up being the top-6 at Worlds for last season, per the assumption that the top two contenders (WR) wise at each event would place at least on the podium, if not first/second. I think Patrick's 4th place finish could shake those settled expectations up a bit. Patrick of course isn't precluded from winding up at the GPF (Nathan qualified last year with a 2nd and 4th place after all), but I think he'd need at least silver to still be in the running for qualification. Given the field at NHK (Yuzu, Jason, Adam) that might be a tough (though not impossible) ask. And if either Jason and/or Adam podiums at NHK, they're in a good position to qualify. Particularly considering Adam will finish up at Skate America with a hometown crowd.

Obviously it's (a) early in the season/GP series, and (b) this is figure skating/the ice-is-wet/men's events in particular can be super surprising. Plus, we haven't seen how Vincent and Max (or Boyang, or Javi) will fair in their events. But whereas I might've only predicted Nathan of the US men would make it to the finals, I think the door is more open for other US men to qualify as well.

Thank you for replying and clarifying what I couldn't understand from your post. My fault, not yours.

There's going to be a great fight among the US men all season long.

 

[karne]

Max vs Vincent round 1 is next weekend.


Come on Max. Show the world you're not to be thrown aside.

 

[mindatwork]

Thank you for replying and clarifying what I couldn't understand from your post. My fault, not yours.

There's going to be a great fight among the US men all season long.

Agreed. I feel like all the top U.S. Men (so far) have been more than making their case internationally this season, and it's super exciting to see. Of course, I might be biased because over the past two years Nathan has become my far and away fave of any of the current senior men, and he's continued to deliver.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I wonder what he would've scored had he not left this performance on practice ice? That was a gorgeous quad and it looked pretty easy for him. Thanks for posting!:thumbsup:

Theoretical possible score for Jason:

4Toe, +1 goe (possibly higher, but for now) = 11.3
3Axel, +2 goe = 10.5
CCSp4, +3 goe = 4.7
3Flip, +2 goe = 6.7
StSq4, +3 goe = 6.0
---
3Axel+3Toe, +2 goe = 16.08
CCoSp4, +3 goe = 5.0
3Lz+1Lo+3Sal, +2 goe = 13.39
ChSq, +3 goe = 4.1
3Lo, +1 goe = 6.31
3Lz+2Toe, +2 goe = 9.43
2Axel, +2 goe = 4.63
CCoSp4, +2 goe (although +3 is possible too) = 4.5

Technical Total = 102.64+

PCS = 95.0+ (he can get there, the judges already gave him 90 for an imperfect performance)

So that's 197.64+. Would be the highest score ever for a program with just 1 quad. Depending on PCS he can actually hit 200. I hope he achieves it!

 

[Mrs. P]

Skate Canada is done. Nothing earth shattering as far as the U.S. horse race other than Jason got silver (rather than bronze) and has put himself in a good position for GPF. Though he had a silver medal going into NHK last year and we all saw what happened. I'm hoping for a better result this time around!

The U.S. men are two for two for medals on GP, tied with Japan.

Next up: Cup of China with Max Aaron, Vincent Zhou and Grant Hochstein. Grant has another shot to make his case after a poor showing at Rostelecom Cup and Vincent and Max have their first head to head international face-off

 

[Tavi...]

It should be really interesting to see how the judges at COC respond to Max and Vincent. So many people tend to lump them both into the "strong jumpers" category, and yet they both have other good qualities, and they couldn't be more different as skaters.

It's too bad Jason didn't land his 4T last night after we saw such a good one in practice. He did say in the GS article that he was excited about how they were going in the 6-minute warm up (I assume he meant for the FS, which I didn't see) , so it sounds like he landed at least a couple then. Since that's about where he was at Salt Lake City last season, maybe he'll land one at his next competition - after his experience at NHK last year, I imagine it would mean a lot to land his first quad there.