2017 Japan Open

[OS]

Mai is lovely. I had to check what this Gabriel's oboe song is about, and I think her interpretation fits to that. I don't like Evgenia's interpretation, I think less would be more, I have never liked her acting rather than interpreting. Of these two Russians Alina seems more natural.
Many have said that the audience influences the scores. If this is true, I wonder how loud are the Koreans going to cheer for the Russians in the Olympics ?

Mai is relatively underrated only because this is the age of overrated. They like to push this overtly expressive western dramatics as the only way to express music, when there should be all sort of ways to interpret music, all-encompassing and free just as music are varied and free. She expresses it naturally innately outwards and they can be seen in her body movements, which actually suit the style and content of music narrative well in the simplicity and the pure intention to express welcoming communication without ulterior motives, one came from peace among tranquillity and curiosity..

I think Korea will cheer for any Russia just fine. A lot of people like to make this about Korea vs Russia due to Sochi whatever and this is extremely unfortunate.

Russia is a large complex country where they have their own sub groups and dissenting voice even among the figure skating fan groups themselves. Just as there is Korea figure skating fans openly admires many Russian and Japanese skaters despite the stereotype. Yuna's mum and Yuna herself are big fans of Russia figure skaters and have always invited them to her shows, including Irina S for many years. Unfortunately, the mismanagement of the sport in Sochi caused so many unintentional frictions when it should be about slanted judging panel. It is however unhelpful when so many evidence came to light since then proofing the host nation had made their event a huge political marketing exercise and made all necessary arrangements to ensure the results would be favourable to them.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Why on earth was Mai ranked ahead of Alina?? Homecooking at its finest...

 

[OS]

Why on earth was Mai ranked ahead of Alina?? Homecooking at its finest...

Haha it is home cooking ONLY when someone else is doing it.

WHy do you think so? I for one read this book and can see clearly the idea and the plot behind her program. Where is the so-called comedy there?:scratch3:

Tragedy done badly is dark comedy. Especially those with random voice overs, breathing sound effects and obligatory miming deaths scenes.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

No, it's homecooking when someone who had three jumping passes, including the triple triple that ended with a toe (as opposed to a loop), in the first half and who had a childish presentation compared to the music scores above a technically difficult and beautifully executed program, simply because they're from that country. If this had happened in Russia and Mai and Alina had each others' programs and scores, I wouldn't be happy either. Mai's 3F was also in the first half if you look at the video, as she landed it right before the 2 minute mark, and it was given the bonus mark in the protocols. That seems a bit fishy to me, as well as the fact that Alina's PCS is a full point lower than Mai's, if not more, across the board. One can argue that "Mai had better skating skills" but really, she had no passion that showed those so-called superior skating skills. She definitely had less transitions than Zagitova, and she didn't really seem to have many transitions besides that very nice spiral into the loop. Lastly, I think you could have put any music of that type behind her skating and it wouldn't have changed at all, whereas with Alina, nothing but her music could have worked. I really don't see the reason for Mai's sudden PCS boost like that--she's so close to Zhenya in PCS and Zhenya is miles above her. If this isn't homecooking, then nothing is.

Also: how on earth is Zhenya's TES below Mai's? I get that Mai did a 3Lz-3T while Zhenya didn't, but Zhenya's elements are miles above Mai's. This scoring is really starting to disgust me, especially considering that Zhenya and Alina are relatively well liked in Japan.

 

[OS]

OH I don't deny there could be some home cooking involved, but my point is every one has been doing it in their GP series for their own skaters for years, but the champion of this methods undoubtly belong to the Russian feds, and Russian controlled ISU, who has basically hijacked last 4 years of WC ladies FS event all about propping Russian/European Champion ladies, by ensuring heavily slanted judge panel consist of of 92% European judges majority. That is home cooking at its best at a global scale.

Why do you think PCS inflated so much in recently years but apply specifically to young Russian hopefuls despite these youngsters have yet to earn their PCS the natural way like say like Liza and Alena LEONOVA had done over the years: deliverying results, make improvements and make personal breathrough. Why PCS priority are given to youngsters who are light framed, skinny and are able to backload, rotate and stil remain flexible enough to avoid injury, therefore easier to be consistant and less of a risk. It is part of the homecooking process, instant noodle with guaranteed consistent standards of artificial flavourings, than working so hard, invest for years, nurturing a skater when they might never take off internationally, like Sotnikova.

 

[madison]

OH I don't deny there could be some home cooking involved, but my point is every one has been doing it in their GP series for their own skaters for years, but the champion of this methods undoubtly belong to the Russian feds, and Russian controlled ISU, who has basically hijacked last 4 years of WC ladies FS event all about propping Russian/European Champion ladies, by ensuring heavily slanted judge panel consist of of 92% European judges majority. That is home cooking at its best at a global scale.

Why do you think PCS inflated so much in recently years but apply specifically to young Russian hopefuls despite these youngsters have yet to earn their PCS the natural way like say like Liza and Alena LEONOVA had done over the years: deliverying results, make improvements and make personal breathrough. Why PCS priority are given to youngsters who are light framed, skinny and are able to backload, rotate and stil remain flexible enough to avoid injury, therefore easier to be consistant and less of a risk. It is part of the homecooking process, instant noodle with guaranteed consistent standards of artificial flavourings, than working so hard, invest for years,urturing a skater when they might never take off internationally, like Sotnikova.

Ohh, please!! Where exactly were Russian ladies favored by the judges? As far as I remember, at the Worlds in Boston 2015 Gracie and Ashley were pushed as hell. I think that Anna P deserved there the silver. And at last year Worlds, Osmond was again very pushed by the judges (I mean in the short, both Canadian ladies had inflated scores, to the detriment of Anna P). And Osmond was pushed all last season, and probably will continue this season as well. Zagitova will have a hard life to overcome this, because more than sure she'll be underscored as Russia no 2, and judges will favour Osmond and a Japanese.

 

[OS]

Ohh, please!! Where exactly were Russian ladies favored by the judges? As far as I remember, at the Worlds in Boston 2015 Gracie and Ashley were pushed as hell. I think that Anna P deserved there the silver. And at last year Worlds, Osmond was again very pushed by the judges (I mean in the short, both Canadian ladies had inflated scores, to the detriment of Anna P). And Osmond was pushed all last season, and probably will continue this season as well. Zagitova will have a hard life to overcome this, because more than sure she'll be underscored as Russia no 2, and judges will favour Osmond and a Japanese.

There are several factors that can slant scoring, but doesn't mean they will always work. Skaters still have to deliver. Think of them like conflicting factors.
FYI In the last 4 'world' championships ladies FS, 33 out of 36 judges selected were from Europe, 92% European majority. 1st time might be a coincidence, 2nd time, this is surely a mistake, 3rd time, this is clearly abuse. 4th time this is clearly strategic.

Home event slant home skaters.
Judge panel selection can slant marks pending on their historical prferences.
Of course US want to play it too, when it is their turn. That is what i mean everyone is doing it.
By everyone i mean only major federation who has home events, and the hopeful skater talent can afford to do this.

2 out past 4 WC took place in Japan, China did involve 100% European judge panel. Whether that affect the results does not change the fact attempts were made to slant the result in favour of European skaters. It was why Kostner (IMO) medaled by virtue of her PCS despite a disaster of FS, and poor Anna did not podium. The moment Evegenia become inconsistent, Zagitova's stock value will rise, as it also depends on who the fed support.

 

[madison]

There are several factors that can slant scoring, but doesn't mean they will always work. Skaters still have to deliver. Think of them like conflicting factors.
FYI In the last 4 'world' championships ladies FS, 33 out of 36 judges selected were from Europe, 92% European majority. 1st time might be a coincidence, 2nd time, this is surely a mistake, 3rd time, this is clearly abuse. 4th time this is clearly strategic.

Home event slant home skaters.
Judge panel selection can slant marks pending on their historical prferences.
Of course US want to play it too, when it is their turn. That is what i mean everyone is doing it.
By everyone i mean only major federation who has home events, and the hopeful skater talent can afford to do this.

2 out past 4 WC took place in Japan, China did involve 100% European judge panel. Whether that affect the results does not change the fact attempts were made to slant the result in favour of European skaters. It was why Kostner (IMO) medaled by virtue of her PCS despite a disaster of FS, and poor Anna did not podium. The moment Evegenia become inconsistent, Zagitova's stock value will rise, as it also depends on who the fed support.

It's unfair for the skaters, and an embarrassment for the judges and for whole the system. I mean the judges should treat the skaters as individuals not as an attachment to a country. I think the whole system, which now is country based, should be changed.
And overly inflated PCS can change a lot of things, take for example Caro's case from today.
If the majority of judges are from Europe, it doesn't mean they favour Russian skaters, and we could see that at the last Worlds.
So should Zagi wait Evgenia either becoming inconsistent or retiring? Even she keeps the better tech pack and becomes a better performer? It's just unfair... all the system. Because as it is now, Evgenia as Russian no 1 is always protected, even in the case of a small bombing, not major though she will score high. The same for Canada no 1, Japan no 1 and maybe USA no1 in detriment of Russia no 2

 

[Zora]

OH I don't deny there could be some home cooking involved, but my point is every one has been doing it in their GP series for their own skaters for years, but the champion of this methods undoubtly belong to the Russian feds, and Russian controlled ISU, who has basically hijacked last 4 years of WC ladies FS event all about propping Russian/European Champion ladies, by ensuring heavily slanted judge panel consist of of 92% European judges majority. That is home cooking at its best at a global scale.

This is just weird. Why should a judge of Germany (or France or Italy or whatever country) favor a Russian skater over a Japanese skater or a Canadian or an US skater...? That doesn't make sense at all!

 

[Tulipstar]

This is just weird. Why should a judge of Germany (or France or Italy or whatever country) favor a Russian skater over a Japanese skater or a Canadian or an US skater...? That doesn't make sense at all!

Exactly. And since Russia cultural imperialism was mentioned: None of those countries are all that influenced by Russia culturally. I would say they are much more heavily influenced by US culture. One skater skating to an Anna Karenina program is not going to change that.

 

[OS]

This is just weird. Why should a judge of Germany (or France or Italy or whatever country) favor a Russian skater over a Japanese skater or a Canadian or an US skater...? That doesn't make sense at all!

From experience having observed judging patterns or even commentary, I can say German judges, British judges are usually not part of the EU slant and they try to be fair for everybody. I wish that is the case for all judges and I did hope was the case, but being a long time watcher I get disillusioned by so many little games ISU play to tweak the results without technically breaking any rules.

All judges may want to try their best to judge true to their belief without concious of cheating, but by sharing similar cultural upbringing. does carry inherent preferences and favoured with a certain type of European style programs that can impact things like PCS impressions, especially when other cultural views are not being represented on the panel. This naturally disadvantages those who fall outside this purview, including those who may want to explore something non-classical, more modern. After all, it is not like European skaters will never attempt Chinese, Japanese, Latin traditional music all of a sudden.

Let's make up an example

If Marin Honda, Karen Chen, Julia Lipniskaya, Kaetlyn Osmond all skated to their best ability to Schindler's list, same music edit, same choreography, wears the exact same red costume and they have 100% executed the exact same technical content successfully at their prime. Which one would move the judges more and affect their PCS?

How would a panel consist of a Japanese judge, a Russian judge, a Mexican judge, a Canadian judge, a German judge and an Israeli judge able to judge their PCS?
How about an all European panel vs an All none European panel? Would there be subtle differences that separate their opinions and why?

Do you think diversity is important to a fair judging panel? Or would it be possible to create a slanted panel without technically cheating?

 

[snd]

i hate medvedeva's new lp. the music is so vulgar i just can't. she did away with her best lp ever as well as her prettiest dress. whatever. as a musician, i refuse to listen to this godawful 'musical' mess ever again.

javier is stiff and boring - but that's to be expected. good spins, though.

nathan has a genius lp choreo and music-wise, but it really wasn't a good day for him...

happy for mirai's clean-ish skate but she will never get anywhere near top 10 even with that trixel - her 1.5 transitions against zagitova and medvedeva's gazillion per programme make it impossible for the judges to reward her with good pcs. nothing to give good pcs for.

karen chen with her beautiful flow and lovely big jumps was the only ray of light here. way underscored.

 

[Zora]

From experience having observed judging patterns or even commentary, I can say for sure German judges, British judges are usually not part of the EU slant and they try to be fair for everybody, and they actually bother to reward PCS properly, acknowledge things like creativity, originality and genuine artistic credibility. I wish that is the case for all judges and I did hope was the case, but being a long time watcher I get disillusioned by so many little games ISU play to tweak the results without technically breaking any rules.

But what countries are we talking about then? Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Spain, Switzerland...? I'm pretty sure they don't favor Russian skaters either. And as Tulipstar said, these countries are more influenced by US culture anyway. East European countries? I don't know these countries well enough to know if they would favor a Russian skater, but they certainly don't make 92% of the judging panel.

All judges may want to try their best to judge true to their belief without concious of cheating, but by sharing similar cultural upbringing. does carry inherent preferences and favoured with a certain type of European style programs that can impact things like PCS impressions, especially when other cultural views are not being represented on the panel. This naturally disadvantages those who fall outside this purview, including those who may want to explore something non-classical, more modern. After all, it is not like European skaters will never attempt Chinese, Japanese, Latin traditional music all of a sudden.

This I don't get at all. First of all, what is a European style program? Brian Joubert, Javier Fernandez, Carolina Kostner, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Volosozhar/Trankov, they are one of the most successful European skaters, but they all have/had different styles. Most European people don't even care that much about classical music. German commentators are often quite vocal against using classical music.

If Marin Honda, Karen Chen, Julia Lipniskaya, Kaetlyn Osmond all skated to their best ability to Schindler's list, same music edit, same choreography, wears the exact same red costume and they have 100% executed the exact same technical content successfully at their prime. Which one would move the judges more and affect their PCS?

I thought Yulia's success with this program had more to do with the fact that she was still very child-like.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Better than a bomb or plane, I guess.

You do realize this is how Anna Karenina dies, right? You keep going on about this, talking how it has no meaning so for those who obviously haven't read this particular treasure of world literature - Anna Karenina commits suicide by throwing herself in front of a train.

The ending has meaning, it is not Evgenia's fault that you lack the knowledge to understand it.

 

[deedee1]

My thoughts on Ladoes:
Wow to Mirai's rotated 3A! Her other triple jumps looked much cleaner, quality jumps to me at JO. She is fit and well-trained. :thumbsup: My small complain would be she can attack the program with more fire, speed, ice coverage and try to sell it more.
Lots of < calls on Karen... Poor girl. C'mon ISU. Targeting on Karen this season? Who's next, Satoko? We've seen enough of it already. I'ts not a real competition, half exhibition match. Didn't need to be so harsh here. :noshake:
A lovely program by Mai. Her skating is even smoother than the last season. Hopefully she will work on her expressions esp upper body movements; shoulders arms hands and fingers. Or she again will get heavily critisized by some. Mai reminds me of Taka Kozuka and Patrick when they were still teens; superb skating skills and a littel lesser performing skills.
Overall, I still can't warm to back-loading programs by some top ladies. Like front-loading ones, they are NOT well-balanced as a program to my eyes to enjoy.

 

[OS]

But what countries are we talking about then? Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Spain, Switzerland...? I'm pretty sure they don't favor Russian skaters either. And as Tulipstar said, these countries are more influenced by US culture anyway. East European countries? I don't know these countries well enough to know if they would favor a Russian skater, but they certainly don't make 92% of the judging panel.

For fun, I found the details and list them here.
Here are all the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP LADIES FS judge panels since 2013.
I have only bothered to check SP for 2014 only, as I thought there were more than 7/9 EURO judge there, turns out my memory went a bit fuzzy and was referring to SP. (Will make corrections)
As this illustrate, this has become a truly European Sport, despite there's all these ISU judges world wide to pick from.
http://www.isu.org/inside-synchroni...ls-fs-id-sys-2016-2017-updated-oct-6-rev/file


2013 WC FS (London, Canada)
Bulgaria, Estonia, Demark, Spain, Austria, South Africa, Great Britain, Switzerland, Georgia.
8/9 European Judges (If include Georgia EasternEurope, Western Asia)

2014 WC (Japan)
SP
Switzerland, Estonia, Austrlia, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, Australia, Germany, Great Britain
8/9 European Judges

FS
Australia, USA, Lithunaia, Germany, Canada, France, Ukrain, Sweden, Belgium
7/9 European Judges


2015 WC FS (China)
Slovakia, France, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Czech Republic, Finland, Demark, Estonia
9/9 European Judges


2016 WC (Boston) FS
Ukraine, France, Korea, Netherland, Czech Republic, Finland, Canada, Lithunaia, Japan
7/9 European Judges

2017 WC (Helsinki) FS
Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovenia, France, Sweden, Austria, Japan, Norway, Switzerland
8/9 European Judges

Out of 6 events 47 / 54 European Judges, 87% Majority.
Or just for the FS event last 5 WCs, 39 / 45, 87% majority.

 

[[email protected]]

No, it's homecooking when someone who had three jumping passes, including the triple triple that ended with a toe (as opposed to a loop), in the first half and who had a childish presentation compared to the music scores above a technically difficult and beautifully executed program, simply because they're from that country. If this had happened in Russia and Mai and Alina had each others' programs and scores, I wouldn't be happy either. Mai's 3F was also in the first half if you look at the video, as she landed it right before the 2 minute mark, and it was given the bonus mark in the protocols. That seems a bit fishy to me, as well as the fact that Alina's PCS is a full point lower than Mai's, if not more, across the board. One can argue that "Mai had better skating skills" but really, she had no passion that showed those so-called superior skating skills. She definitely had less transitions than Zagitova, and she didn't really seem to have many transitions besides that very nice spiral into the loop. Lastly, I think you could have put any music of that type behind her skating and it wouldn't have changed at all, whereas with Alina, nothing but her music could have worked. I really don't see the reason for Mai's sudden PCS boost like that--she's so close to Zhenya in PCS and Zhenya is miles above her. If this isn't homecooking, then nothing is.

Also: how on earth is Zhenya's TES below Mai's? I get that Mai did a 3Lz-3T while Zhenya didn't, but Zhenya's elements are miles above Mai's. This scoring is really starting to disgust me, especially considering that Zhenya and Alina are relatively well liked in Japan.

It was in Japan in a show like competition. That's the main reason. But there is more. Mai is likely picked as the leading Japanese lady in the eyes of judges at this stage. Zagitova is likely picked as Russia's number 2. Hence, she will have to make extra efforts. It happened before with Satoko (up). It happened before with Pogorilaya (down). We shall see how it goes during GP. The third Russian lady will have the toughest luck, though.

At the same time, Zagitova beat both Wakaba and Marin - Japans #2-3 now.

 

[madison]

For fun, I found the details and list them here.
Here are all the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP LADIES FS judge panels since 2013.
I have only bothered to check SP for 2014 only, as I thought there were more than 7/9 EURO judge there, turns out my memory went a bit fuzzy lol. (Will make corrections)
As this illustrate, this has become a truly European Sport, despite there's all these ISU judges world wide to pick from.
http://www.isu.org/inside-synchroni...ls-fs-id-sys-2016-2017-updated-oct-6-rev/file


2013 WC (London, Canada)
Bulgaria, Estonia, Demark, Spain, Austria, South Africa, Great Britain, Switzerland, Georgia.
8/9 European Judgess if you count Georgia

2014 WC (Japan)
SP
Switzerland, Estonia, Austrlia, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, Australia, Germany, Great Britain
8/9 European Judges

FS
Australia, USA, Lithunaia, Germany, Canada, France, Ukrain, Sweden, Belgium
7/9 European Judges

2015 WC (China)
FS
Slovakia, France, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Czech Republic, Finland, Demark, Estonia
9/9 European Judges

2016 WC (Boston)
FS
Ukraine, France, Korea, Netherland, Czech Republic, Finland, Canada, Lithunaia, Japan
7/9 European Judges

2017 WC (Helsinki)
FS
Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovenia, France, Sweden, Austria, Japan, Norway, Switzerland
8/9 European Judges

Well, it happens that in Europe there are so many countries. It's normal that the majority of the judges in the panel to be from Europe... They cannot choose states from USA though, sorry...

 

[[email protected]]

Welcome to the 2017 Japan Open! It will be held on October 7th at Saitama Super Arena, which is located in Saitama, Japan. Here are the entries.

Edited for results.

Team Europe
Total: 615.35


Team Japan
Total: 614.93


Team North America
Total: 572.95

Just curious, are there monetary prizes for teams?

 

[Zora]

For fun, I found the details and list them here.
Here are all the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP LADIES FS judge panels since 2013.
I have only bothered to check SP for 2014 only, as I thought there were more than 7/9 EURO judge there, turns out my memory went a bit fuzzy lol. (Will make corrections)
As this illustrate, this has become a truly European Sport, despite there's all these ISU judges world wide to pick from.
http://www.isu.org/inside-synchroni...ls-fs-id-sys-2016-2017-updated-oct-6-rev/file

So tell me which of these countries you think are biased towards Russian skaters. Because that was my point. For most European countries it just doesn't make sense at all to prefer Russian skaters over other skaters because of nationality or for cultural reasons.