2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Shayuki]

Wrong. Liza, Carolina, Yuna Kim... when they land their Lutz without cheated takeoff. They do not UR.

The issue with Sotskova is that she is too tall to rotate fast enough.

Are you trying to make a point with this? We have one retired skater, one skater who doesn't almost ever even perform a 3Lutz, and one who indeed does do it properly and consistently. So one good example.

Remember I said "common" but that isn't the same thing as "without exception".

Actually nevermind, not having this discussion.

 

[chopinskate]

I'm not sure where this myth of having classic good technique lutz = tendency to UR is coming from. Lower the PR in a lutz, the better power you'll have into take off, and the better you can leverage that to create rotation. Of course, you'll still have to leverage that properly, but if you can't, that's not "good" technique anyway. Good technique doesn't end at entry edge and PR.

Karen Chen, Sotskova etc.

Karen sometimes closes her air position too slowly, and Sotskova, as far as I can tell, should either get more vault or learn to rotate more quickly. Not "good" habits, at any rate.

ETA: the distinction in these two cases has to do with their basic technique, not how they do their Lutz take-offs or anything. When they hit their Lutz, it is classic. But to hit it more often, they'll likely need to fix their issues.

 

[charlotte14]

Are you trying to make a point with this? We have one retired skater, one skater who doesn't almost ever even perform a 3Lutz, and one who indeed does do it properly and consistently. So one good example.

Remember I said "common" but that isn't the same thing as "without exception".

There bave been many skaters in the past who had good technique. Stop spreading false assumptions. Just because the current skaters cheat the takeoff more often it does not mean they are superior.

 

[charlotte14]

Are you trying to make a point with this? We have one retired skater, one skater who doesn't almost ever even perform a 3Lutz, and one who indeed does do it properly and consistently. So one good example.

Remember I said "common" but that isn't the same thing as "without exception".


Karen Chen, Sotskova etc.

Importantly, there's currently no value in having classic good tech.

Sotskova is too tall. If your favorite is same built as her, I doubt they could fully rotate a triple. What is the common UR problem when only Karen Chen has that issue?

There are many good examples who have proper Lutz technique. Nancy Kerringan, Bauil, even Tonya Harding (her misery was on her bad attitude, not her technique).

 

[leoleo]

it's from the video interview that was posted and translated before by Dante
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnL6J1XC6GU

It is a transcript of the video interview posted recently. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIpiyTQvl5E )


e: Ugh, I'm slow.

oh thanks! i thought it was something new about her!

 

[TGee]

Sotskova is too tall. If your favorite is same built as her, I doubt they could fully rotate a triple. What is the common UR problem when only Karen Chen has that issue?

There are many good examples who have proper Lutz technique. Nancy Kerringan, Bauil, even Tonya Harding (her misery was on her bad attitude, not her technique).

I agree...

It's difficult to get a good 3Lz period, but there is no case that classic technique means prerotation .

Quite the opposite actually. A clean spiky lutz with a good vault looks like nothing else.

Precisely because it is at the moment of picking and vaulting that the skater changes the direction of the arc of movement.

In my view, something beautiful is lost when a skater makes any kind of significant rotation in the new direction before leaving the ice.

Donald Jackson who landed the first ratified 3Lz to take the 1962 world championship had an amazing 3Lz.

See his jump pass starting 31 seconds in

https://youtu.be/Alrsemq_mzQ

But Jackson acknowledges that with the training methods of the time, it was difficult to get it down from a "quarter turn cheat" .

Yes, let's put it out there 'prerotation' was for a very long time referred to as a 'cheat'.

I don't think it's respectful of women to let a lower standard go by in the belief that it's the only way they'll get triples. Especially as they are not limited by the training approaches of the 1960s.

My preference would be for the rules to formalize the 90 degree limit as the have for URs on landings.

And then we will see these lovely, striking 3Lz again.

 

[atsumiri]

naive.

 

[TGee]

naive.

Or having more faith that a great talent like Trusova could actually do a jump like that if the judging system rewards it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Or having more faith that a great talent like Trusova could actually do a jump like that if the judging system rewards it.

I wouldn’t want Sasha to change a thing. I like her jumps and her potential.

 

[TGee]

I wouldn’t want Sasha to change a thing. I like her jumps and her potential.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

We both seem to want young female skaters to reach for more...

But I want to make sure that no one can say that they reached the gold under an unofficially modified standard.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

We both seem to want young female skaters to reach for more...

But I want to make sure that no one can say that they reached the gold, not under a unofficially modified standard.

Lets hope it can be worked out in the junior ranks TGee, before it becomes an issue as a senior.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Her jumps aren’t the biggest or the best but her heart is huge! She’s going for broke and she said she’s all in this year because she loves the sport and competing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmbdC27hlqi/


This is the definition of pure figure skating to me. She will be able to get some positive GOE for jumps like this. Not a lot but some and Inspite of her sort of awkward at times jumps that try to work against her she counters it with some nice air position and shear will power. I think her enthusiasm is going to be her greatest asset and I hope she can take advantage of any opportunity afforded to her.

Good Luck Sima!! Always proud of you!

 

[Shayuki]

Lets hope it can be worked out in the junior ranks TGee, before it becomes an issue as a senior.

Do you think that the tech on Lutz(or any other jump of your choosing) is a problem, though? Reminder that 3 of the last world champions and the last Olympic champion all have less than optimal tech on it. So judging by the results, it seems quite effective and rewarding. And Trusova has a very deep correct Lutz edge, something that she also is able to benefit from.

I honestly don't understand. Is it actual concern or just wanting to complain about something about her due to how threatening she is? There should be a dozen other skaters in line whose tech should be complained about before the girl's who jumps quads.

 

[tars]

Somebody reposted nice video from the past in yt, so...
is Anastasia Gubanova the best novice skater ever?

I mean, Akatieva, Berestovskaya and Co. have technical prowess and couple of years more, but her artistry and grace are gonna be hard to touch.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Somebody reposted nice video from the past in yt, so...
is Anastasia Gubanova the best novice skater ever?

I mean, Akatieva, Berestovskaya and Co. have technical prowess and couple of years more, but her artistry and grace are gonna be hard to touch.

I’ve been watching that video the last few days :

I just want to know what the plan is for her.

 

[TGee]

Do you think that the tech on Lutz(or any other jump of your choosing) is a problem, though? Reminder that 3 of the last world champions and the last Olympic champion all have less than optimal tech on it. So judging by the results, it seems quite effective and rewarding. And Trusova has a very deep correct Lutz edge, something that she also is able to benefit from.

I honestly don't understand. Is it actual concern or just wanting to complain about something about her due to how threatening she is? There should be a dozen other skaters in line whose tech should be complained about before the girl's who jumps quads.

You've hit the nail on the head.

We're concerned when the IJS rewards poor technique.

Quads or triples, it doesn't matter.

Beyond a matter of inherent fairness for those who can do the jumps without the 'cheat', good technique is important for raising the level without injury.

We've seen a lot of progress in terms of judging calls on edges and URs in the past quadrennial.

Many of us would like to see the same on prerotation.

---

Editing to add...if you look in the archives, there was a great technical thread about 2 years ago where we looked at 3Lz and found that there were only a very few skaters that were doing good ones with little prerotation and on the right edge.

One of the ones we critiqued as too often switching edges was Javier , and it was interesting how he and his team put a focus on correcting that in the last two seasons.

 

[Shayuki]

Somebody reposted nice video from the past in yt, so...
is Anastasia Gubanova the best novice skater ever?

I mean, Akatieva, Berestovskaya and Co. have technical prowess and couple of years more, but her artistry and grace are gonna be hard to touch.

Gubanova doesn't really have the tangible achievements... For instance, Anna Shcherbakova won the elder age nationals at a younger age(and with a higher score). Trusova was already 4th at Russian jr nationals as a novice skater etc. And Sofia Akatieva's achievements up until this point are, of course, completely unmatched. Still, if we look past the actual achievements, Gubanova was great especially in 15-16. But she unfortunately had the problem that she would start her seasons strong and finish them poorly, when all the important competitions were going on.

Akatieva and Berestovskaya have great merits, of course, but it'd be great if Veronika Zhilina ended up becoming the novice skater to beat. :agree:

Many of us would like to see the same on prerotation.

That's great, but I still think that the focus with that discussion being on the skater performing quads and reaching heights never reached before isn't right. It's you trying hard to paint her achievements in a negative light.

 

[leoleo]

If Eteri's team did decide that they wanted to work on bettering her 4lz, they can afford to do so cause she has no competition now, even being inconsistent she's gonna win. But as it was already said pages ago, pre-rotations are rampant in the sport in both the male & female senior field and the judges are clearly not going to punish her for it (not much at least) despite how much they're pretending their new scoring system is gonna fix judging mistakes. In an ideal world everybody has clear correct edges, correct landings & non pre-rotated or under-rotated jumps but that's not happening. And if Shoma Uno or Vincent Zhou can get away with pre-rotated jumps, there's no reason why she should be targeted for having the same minor issue. I'm more bothered by unclear edges being given +GOEs personally cause a flat edge on a lutz or flutz being given +3, that's scandalous!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Are we actually going to discuss Russian ladies again

 

[leoleo]

Are we actually going to discuss Russian ladies again

there's nothing new to talk about! we're bored