2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

[MarinHondas]

Thank you! Tired of the effort to shame people for enjoying young talent. Sure, it's not necessary to project their future as the next big thing, future Worlds/Olympics medalist, but let's enjoy them and root for them to accomplish great things both now and as they develop further.

Anyway, this time last year I was feeling super skeptical about Starr. She had little polish and extremely weak skating skills, but she impressed me at Nationals with her improvement, and the glimpses we are getting of her new program are marvelous. Very sophisticated and cool! I love it. Her SS look as though they have continued to improve as well. (That said, her 2A looks fine - but it's not a 2A that I expect to see from someone who is on the verge of accomplishing a real 3A on a regular basis. Prove me wrong, Starr!)

I mean her 2a isn’t particularly huge but she does an extremely difficult entry into it and also does it when the music says “jumping”. Both these indicate to me that she’s very very comfortable with the jump and must (pretty much) never miss it. Not to say that I totally believe she can get 3a but it does seem like a jump worth trying to get another rotation out of.

 

[el henry]

Thank you! Tired of the effort to shame people for enjoying young talent. Sure, it's not necessary to project their future as the next big thing, future Worlds/Olympics medalist, but let's enjoy them and root for them to accomplish great things both now and as they develop further.

....

Who here is trying to *shame* anyone for “enjoying” young talent?

But enjoying means exactly that: enjoying. Enjoying what they bring to the ice, hoping they improve, hoping they are given the space and time and breathing room to develop their art and grow in their sport.

For me, “enjoying” has nothing to do with “wow, this 12 year old can jump! Watch out old ladies, she’s a gonna podium, yippeeeeee, an American lady who’s gonna conquer the world”. That kind of wishful thinking and overpromotion I personally can do without:disapp:

That type of thinking, when directed to a 12 year old, to me *is* a shame and I see nothing to celebrate in it. ETA: And has diddly bop to do with enjoying their skating. But that’s my opinion....

 

[Mrs. P]

^ Part of the problem is that you have multiple groups of people and they usually talk to over each other.
-- The fan that says "This skater isn't going anywhere in the future because they don't have X, Y, Z." For some, it's certain jumps. For others its artistry. For other's it's maturity.
-- The fan that says "She can do 3As and quads, OMG! Watch out, this girl's a future national/world/olympic champ! Get out of the way older skaters!"

Then there are the fans who:
-- Simply appreciates the skater for their potential and enjoys their skating where it is now and hopes for good things.
-- Appreciates the skater's talent but don't necessarily enjoy their skating yet.

All these groups can overlap a little bit, so it's hard to tell where everyone stands.

 

[skylark]

Summertime, IMO, is a pretty tough song to skate to. It’s deep and soulful without a lot of musical crescendos to highlight your jumps. I think Starr is doing particularly well with it.

Yes! Well said, that's what I meant about the contrast. Starr manages to put in wonderful emotion and intensity, which is in the music, but not everyone can bring it out

 

[skylark]

Thank you! Tired of the effort to shame people for enjoying young talent. Sure, it's not necessary to project their future as the next big thing, future Worlds/Olympics medalist, but let's enjoy them and root for them to accomplish great things both now and as they develop further.

Anyway, this time last year I was feeling super skeptical about Starr. She had little polish and extremely weak skating skills, but she impressed me at Nationals with her improvement, and the glimpses we are getting of her new program are marvelous. Very sophisticated and cool! I love it. Her SS look as though they have continued to improve as well. (That said, her 2A looks fine - but it's not a 2A that I expect to see from someone who is on the verge of accomplishing a real 3A on a regular basis. Prove me wrong, Starr!)

Shaming? What the .... ? :scratch:

Well, I don't see it. But we do agree about Starr. That's the sort of development that's so fun to watch.

 

[Ice Dance]

For me, “enjoying” has nothing to do with “wow, this 12 year old can jump!

I'm not sure, however, why you seem convinced that fans who love athletes that experience early success like Alysa & Nathan & Alexandra Trusova love them because they can jump. I love that Alysa & Nathan can jump because I love watching them skate & perform. The former gives me a better shot of seeing young athletes experience success in the sport but it isn't ever what draws me to an athlete first. (Obviously, seeing as I love ice dance). I have been a fan of Alysa since seeing her SP in novices at 2017 Nationals. No one else wanted to talk about her then so--yay!--that she now has a triple axel and other people are excited about watching her on the ice. The girl has pizzazz. The reigning Junior World Champion does as well. I don't know if either Trusova or Alysa will keep their jumps, but their odds are as good or better than an athlete that doesn't have them. And they have all kinds of spunk.

You appear to love Torgashev because you are drawn to him as a performer as well. And you like Kraznozhon, whom I would describe as mainly a jumper & you clearly wouldn't.

Maybe consider that fans who celebrate the technical achievements of young athletes are just happy that the performers they personally connect to also have the skills to compete technically. Truly, would you be angry at people for celebrating if Torgashev or Kraznozhon started rotating & landing those elusive quadruple jumps consistently. My guess is that you would be happy for them and even feel like celebrating online.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm not sure, however, why you seem convinced that fans who love athletes that experience early success like Alysa & Nathan & Alexandra Trusova love them because they can jump.

Not speaking for El Henry, but:

This is part of the point I was making earlier. I think while there are many fans -- like you, clearly -- who truly celebrate the technical achievement of young athletes and connect to them for a wide variety of reasons, not just jumping, I feel like el henry's directing her ire to those who like to hype up those achievements at the expense of other skaters -- usually older. Or wonder why certain fans don't want to completely buy into that person's skating automatically because of them doing certain technical feats or achievements.

I think it's okay to say, "Hey, that's great you're doing a quad and/or 3A, but you don't wow me yet." You can respect someone's talent and technical prowess without having to buy into their skating. Or to immediately displace one's respect for other, namely older, skaters.

That is not what you're doing Ice Dance, but there are examples.

All that said, I think Alysa has a lot of promise and talent and a good competitive drive, which should fare well in the future. If she wins Nationals come January, that's great and is a reflection of all those things. However, the hope is that will be the start of something great, not just an end within itself. (And if she doesn't win Nationals or blow up the skating world right away till she's older, that's OK too).

 

[andromache]

I just don't think there's anything wrong with getting excited about young talent that, yes, can jump really well.

There seems to be an implication that getting excited over and enjoying young technical talent is somehow bad or less valid than excitement over veteran artistry. Young technical talent is great for pushing the sport, particularly in a country and discipline where competitive achievements have declined over the past few decades. I'm excited to see how Alysa Liu develops and progresses over the next few years, including her 3A. And I'm also excited to see more of Starr's artistic development this season, as well as Bradie's. And my fingers are crossed for Gracie as well! She's my favorite veteran and all I want are good things for her.

Sure, there are also veterans whose skating I've never cared for, but it's not like I'm losing respect for them because Alysa Liu has a 3A.

 

[andromache]

Alysia Liu, for example. I wish fans would just let her be, and mature, and improve at a steady pace, rather than act as though being on the senior podium at 13 would be some wonderful accomplishment for Alysia and ladies’ skating. Really???

This is the kind of comment that seems to unnecessarily throw shade. What's wrong with getting excited over Alysa's technical accomplishments? And why would Alysa making the podium at Nationals NOT be a wonderful accomplishment for her and for the US ladies? It would OBVIOUSLY be a huge accomplishment for her and a good sign for the US ladies that there is young talent for the future, not to mention that anyone on the Nationals podium with Alysa's level of technical difficulty would be an accomplishment for US ladies' skating.

 

[frida80]

A photo of Alysa and Starr before the show. So cute!

https://instagram.com/p/BlLbI6DFl4n/

 

[brightphoton]

This is the kind of comment that seems to unnecessarily throw shade. What's wrong with getting excited over Alysa's technical accomplishments? And why would Alysa making the podium at Nationals NOT be a wonderful accomplishment for her and for the US ladies? It would OBVIOUSLY be a huge accomplishment for her and a good sign for the US ladies that there is young talent for the future, not to mention that anyone on the Nationals podium with Alysa's level of technical difficulty would be an accomplishment for US ladies' skating.

Yeah I guess you're right.

It's not like there hasn't been another extremely promising skater who skyrocketed to fame because of a triple-triple-triple on Instagram, gigantic and beautiful triple lutz-triple toe, and Olympic and World gold medals were practically hers to have -- and then later she left the sport due to depression and anorexia due to not being able to meet the overwhelming expectations. She only got 4th place at the freakin' Olympics and Worlds, you know.

Surely, we should apply the same overwhelming expectations to this Alyssa, who is even younger. While we're at it, let's give her a nickname like "Our Lord and Savior Alyssa Liu" as per TSL.

 

[Shayuki]

This is the kind of comment that seems to unnecessarily throw shade. What's wrong with getting excited over Alysa's technical accomplishments? And why would Alysa making the podium at Nationals NOT be a wonderful accomplishment for her and for the US ladies? It would OBVIOUSLY be a huge accomplishment for her and a good sign for the US ladies that there is young talent for the future, not to mention that anyone on the Nationals podium with Alysa's level of technical difficulty would be an accomplishment for US ladies' skating.

Indeed. It certainly would be a wonderful achievement.

I honestly don't understand the attitude where a skater is only supposed to try to become good after they are 16 or some such. This is the kind of an attitude that would cause the medal drought to last for an eternity.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Skate Detroit is almost here, which US ladies are participating besides Amber Glenn? I’m just dying to hear new music selections and see what the skaters worked on over the summer!

 

[LiamForeman]

Summertime, IMO, is a pretty tough song to skate to. It’s deep and soulful without a lot of musical crescendos to highlight your jumps. I think Starr is doing particularly well with it.

Really? I think this is wonderful music to skate to. You have use the phrasing to highlight your jumps instead of just relying on the BOOMs to hit your jumps. Of course this takes someone with some level of musical sophistication. This is perfect for Starr.

 

[Tavi...]

This is the kind of comment that seems to unnecessarily throw shade. What's wrong with getting excited over Alysa's technical accomplishments? And why would Alysa making the podium at Nationals NOT be a wonderful accomplishment for her and for the US ladies? It would OBVIOUSLY be a huge accomplishment for her and a good sign for the US ladies that there is young talent for the future, not to mention that anyone on the Nationals podium with Alysa's level of technical difficulty would be an accomplishment for US ladies' skating.

I don’t want to put words in el henry’s mouth or derail the thread into an OT argument, but I think she was probably referring more to US men than US ladies or Alyssa, specifically.

You can see what happened easily in the US men’s threads for the past couple of years - as Mrs P said, it’s great that people get excited about new young technically strong talent, but when fans of a new skater also devalue the accomplishments and technical skills of “veteran” skaters, it can get unpleasant.

I honestly don’t see much of that going on in the US ladies thread because (1) Alyssa can’t yet compete internationally as a junior, let alone a senior; and (2) many of the veteran US ladies are taking a break from competition this season, at least the first half. So there’s not really an active conflict.

I think, though, that the bitter divide among supporters of different US men has pretty much destroyed what used to be a lively and interesting thread. I’d hate to see the same thing happen to the US ladies thread.

 

[andromache]

Yeah I guess you're right.

It's not like there hasn't been another extremely promising skater who skyrocketed to fame because of a triple-triple-triple on Instagram, gigantic and beautiful triple lutz-triple toe, and Olympic and World gold medals were practically hers to have -- and then later she left the sport due to depression and anorexia due to not being able to meet the overwhelming expectations. She only got 4th place at the freakin' Olympics and Worlds, you know.

Surely, we should apply the same overwhelming expectations to this Alyssa, who is even younger. While we're at it, let's give her a nickname like "Our Lord and Savior Alyssa Liu" as per TSL.

It is up to the skater's family, coaches, and the rest of their support system support system to help the skater manage pressure and expectations in a healthy way. It's part of training to be a future elite athlete. Let's not blame anxiety/depression/anorexia on fan excitement, ok? They are more complex problems than that. And anyway, I think that Gracie was, up until after her 4th place at the Olympics, allowed to develop without an extraordinary amount of pressure. It was only post-2014 in a relatively open field where the pressure really began to build - and that was due to pressure and hype that Gracie created for herself with her great performances at Nationals and the Olympics.

Not to mention that the intention of sharing awesome technical content on social media is to build excitement and enthusiasm around a particular skater. Though one hopes that a literal child like Alysa doesn't actually monitor her own account or google herself, and that her parents and coaches are helping her to manage the (relatively little) attention she is receiving.

Regardless, becoming a champion requires the capacity to deal with the pressure you create for yourself through your own increasing accomplishments.

 

[Mrs. P]

And anyway, I think that Gracie was, up until after her 4th place at the Olympics, allowed to develop without an extraordinary amount of pressure. It was only post-2014 in a relatively open field where the pressure really began to build - and that was due to pressure and hype that Gracie created for herself with her great performances at Nationals and the Olympics.

There was the incident where people were calling for Gracie to be considered for the World Team in 2012 even though she had never even competed as a senior nationally. There was lots of Gracie Gold hype circa 2012 after she won her JGP/ summer comps.

That said, you're right that the skater needs to learn to handle pressure and expectations.

 

[andromache]

entire post

Re: the men's thread

As an "outsider" to that thread who doesn't follow the US men as closely as I follow the women (though I do a decent job on keeping up with the thread) here's my perspective on what I've seen as the recurring argument over the past 2-3 years:

Person A: Oh wow I am so excited about Nathan/Vincent's quad lutz! Can't wait to see him on the Worlds team.
Person B: HOW DARE YOU ASSUME THAT NATHAN/VINCENT WILL BE ON THE WORLDS TEAM??? WHAT ABOUT MAX/JASON???? MAX/JASON IS THE REASON WE HAVE THREE SPOTS.
Person A: WELL JASON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A QUAD/MAX DOESN'T HAVE ARTISTRY OR ENOUGH QUADS SO YOU'RE DELUSIONAL
Person B: THERE'S MORE TO THE SPORT THAN QUADS/MAX DOES HAVE ARTISTRY/IF YOU CARE ABOUT QUADS YOU'RE PART OF WHAT IS RUINING THE SPORT/YOU NEED TO APPRECIATE THE VETERANS
Person A: I DON'T WANT TO BC I LIKE NATHAN/VINCENT

(Oddly enough, I haven't really seen any of these arguments over the latest up-and-coming talents like Camden/Alexei/Torgashev/Tomoki. But fans of Nathan and Vincent specifically seem to be at odds with fans of Max and Jason.)

 

[andromache]

There was the incident where people were calling for Gracie to be considered for the World Team in 2012 even though she had never even competed as a senior nationally. There was lots of Gracie Gold hype circa 2012 after she won her JGP/ summer comps.

That said, you're right that the skater needs to learn to handle pressure and expectations.

That level of hype is, in the grand scheme of things, relatively minimal (IMO - I understand that others might disagree with how I view it). It's very niche and coming from a very small community, and it's easier to insulate yourself against. Gracie wasn't making headlines or appearances on national television at that point (at least from what I can recall).

 

[Mrs. P]

No, but consider that US figure skating is a very small community, relatively speaking so even if the hype wasn’t on tv, that expectation still could be felt.

That said Alysa doesn’t seem to mind being in the limelight and seems to embrace her jumping talent, so perhaps things will turn out differently for her. I think what helped her is that they really pinned her to the wall on URs as a Novice, which wasn't hte case with some of our past jumping prodigies in the U.S. ladies.

ETA: Regarding the men. I will say while people always argued over the relative lack of breadth (i.e. World/Olympic medal contenders), the U.S. men have had some really solid depth that I think has helped keep some longevity in the careers of many U.S. men. In the last two Olympic cycles, we've had several men finish top 10 (and top 6) at Worlds/Olympics, multiple men contributed to keeping 3 spots for Worlds/Olympics and we've had a few make GPF. The U.S. Ladies can only wish for similar depth at this point.

Similar back-and-forth hasn't come up with Alexei, Camden, et al, because they haven't been in the picture for Worlds/Olympic spots yet. Those arguments RE: Vincent and Nathan came when they were gunning for Nationals podium/a Worlds berth.

At one time people wanted Jeremy Abbott's head so Jason and Josh could get on the Worlds team, so it's a cycle, lol.

Anyway, I got that out of my system, let's proceed with talking about ladies.