2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mathman]

No you will not convince me or others including Olympic Team hockey, basketball or volleyball teams, that their medal is not real.

Still, hockey, basketball and volleyball are team sports. If your team wins a medal, good for you.

People don't look at figure skating the same way. The reason why is that there is no "team" to the team -- it is just individual athletes doing their individual thing, then add up the points (why?) at the end.

Even in relay races there is some skill involved in passing the baton. And even in gymnastics they have to present the strongest team by mixing their specialists in with their all-arounders to maximize their efforts. I for one can see why fans are luke-warm about the whole team thing in figure skating. It seems to have more to do with patriotism and provincialism than with sport.

On the other hand, the skaters don't make the rules. All they can do is go out there and try their best, and good luck to them, one and all.

 

[TallyT]

No you will not convince me or others including Olympic Team hockey, basketball or volleyball teams, that their medal is not real. Your attempts to somehow downgrade or diminish the accomplishments of other athletes, will not undo history, thq.

This argument again???? They are real medals. They are not as yet or ever likely to be the equivalent in worth - to the eyes of the world, the history books, the fans or most of all the skaters themselves - as the more prized individual ones, except to some of those athletes who had them and not the individual. Witness that no one calls Plushenko two-time Olympic Gold Medallist, not even Plushy himself. Kaetlyn will not be remembered as 2018 OGM, Alina will.

But that does not make them not real medals.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

This argument again???? They are real medals. They are not as yet, or ever likely to be, the equivalent in worth - to the eyes of the world, the history books, the fans or most of all the skaters themselves - as the more prized individual ones, except to some of those athletes who had them and not the individual. Witness that no one calls Plushenko two-time Olympic Gold Medallist, not even Plushy himself. Kaetlyn will not be remembered as 2018 OGM, Alina will.

But that does not make them real medals.

I agree. The team event is important and is a good chance for skaters to get medals, but the individual medals have a much higher importance. You can see it by just rewatching the individual events versus the team event. There is much more pressure and anticipation in the individual events. Plus the team even is about how strong the country is overall. Which does not matter as much to me because it doesn’t show the whole picture. For example, Evgenia and Alina both won the short and free programs for the team event, but no one would know it because team Russia won the silver medal. I just get bothered when skaters only get a medal only because their team carried them to it. I am not saying that team Canada carried Kaetlyn to an Olympic gold medal because they didn’t. She had a very strong performance and deserved to get that medal. I am talking about other skaters that I will not name, who act like they earned it on their own.

It is kind of similar to gymnastics. While teams do take the team event seriously, the all around gold medal is much more coveted by the athletes.

 

[TallyT]

I am not saying that team Canada carried Kaetlyn to an Olympic gold medal because they didn’t. She had a very strong performance and deserved to get that medal. I am talking about other skaters that I will not name, who act like they earned it on their own.

I doubt anyone would claim that the Russian ladies, in 2014 or 2018, didn't do their share in their team successes, though. And this is their thread...

 

[ancientpeas]

I think the most reasonable comparison is the team medal in Gymnastics vs the all around gold medal. Both are important but the the All around is the ultimate goal. The team gold in Gymnastics has a longer history and I know that the USSR prioritized it but the All around has always been the jewel in the crown. I think that in 20 years or so the team medals will have the prestige that they do in Gymnastics.

I'm Canadian and I love KO but I don't think the team gold is the same as the individual gold. I don't think KO believes that either.

Can we please keep Kaetlyn out of the Russian Ladies thread? She is not a Russian lady and you guys know the rules about that.

Also, rehashing 2014 here is OT, isn't it? Also it will only lead to senseless arguments. Everyone has an opinion. No one is budging on their opinion so lets just let sleeping dogs lie.

(for the record I think Yuna should have won but I can see how some feel Adelina was worthy of winning. Yuna seems at peace with it. I feel sad that Adelina didn't get to skate on and win a WC or two. I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alina shouldn't have won in 2018. It seemed pretty clear cut to me.. and I was rooting for Evgenia but mostly for Satoko and my personal dream of Anna P. coming back to win a medal. Alas)

 

[theharleyquinn]

I think the most reasonable comparison is the team medal in Gymnastics vs the all around gold medal. Both are important but the the All around is the ultimate goal. The team gold in Gymnastics has a longer history and I know that the USSR prioritized it but the All around has always been the jewel in the crown. I think that in 20 years or so the team medals will have the prestige that they do in Gymnastics.

I'm Canadian and I love KO but I don't think the team gold is the same as the individual gold. I don't think KO believes that either.

Can we please keep Kaetlyn out of the Russian Ladies thread? She is not a Russian lady and you guys know the rules about that.

Also, rehashing 2014 here is OT, isn't it? Also it will only lead to senseless arguments. Everyone has an opinion. No one is budging on their opinion so lets just let sleeping dogs lie.

(for the record I think Yuna should have won but I can see how some feel Adelina was worthy of winning. Yuna seems at peace with it. I feel sad that Adelina didn't get to skate on and win a WC or two. I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alina shouldn't have won in 2018. It seemed pretty clear cut to me.. and I was rooting for Evgenia but mostly for Satoko and my personal dream of Anna P. coming back to win a medal. Alas)

I'm just one person but I thought the 2014 discussion here was pretty interesting and I enjoyed reading other posters' takes. Also the Yulia vs. Adelina aspect of it is underdiscussed compared to the obvious, and I think a lot of insightful things were said in the past few pages about it without it getting rude or uncivil.

We'll have to see about the future of the prestige of the figure skating team medals. It's true that they are very, very young. It's just difficult to compare even to Gymnastics because the figure skating team events still have the disciplines siloed. If the other skaters didn't come out to sit in the team booths, there would be very little cue for viewers' to know it's a country versus country competition.

 

[ancientpeas]

I'm just one person but I thought the 2014 discussion here was pretty interesting and I enjoyed reading other posters' takes. Also the Yulia vs. Adelina aspect of it is underdiscussed compared to the obvious, and I think a lot of insightful things were said in the past few pages about it without it getting rude or uncivil.

We'll have to see about the future of the prestige of the figure skating team medals. It's true that they are very, very young. It's just difficult to compare even to Gymnastics because the figure skating team events still have the disciplines siloed. If the other skaters didn't come out to sit in the team booths, there would be very little cue for viewers' to know it's a country versus country competition.

We have had many threads about the 2014 Olympic ladies event and, unfortunately, it nearly always devolves. Not because most people here are not capable of having a reasoned discussion about it but because there are always a few who start throwing around charges of corruption (which is unproven) or insulting Korean fans. As you can imagine as soon as that starts things become defensive and arguments happen.

If people want to rehash the 2014 Ladies event I suggest they either start a thread or find an older thread about it and contribute to that (that will bring it back to the first page and I'm sure others will jump in with insights). Then people who want to talk about it again can and those who just want to discuss Russian Ladies (which is the topic of this thread) can do so here without wading through pages and pages of OT discussion. It's more of a thread management issue.

 

[Scott512]

No you will not convince me or others including Olympic Team hockey, basketball or volleyball teams, that their medal is not real. Your attempts to somehow downgrade or diminish the accomplishments of other athletes, will not undo history, thq.

I think everyone in here likes Osmond but there's no reason to be talking about her in this thread. No way does having a team gold in figure skating equal any other Olympic team sport or world champion team sport when they don't even have a world championship team competition in figure skating. They should. But the Canadian team that won Gold in 2018 Winter Olympics in figure skating is not compared to the Canadian hockey team that won Gold in overtime against America in the 2010 Winter Olympics. You always want that team gold in figure skating and it means something but it's just not on the same level as the major sport team events. Osmond had a good career. But she's not a super decorated Olympic athlete. Team medals cannot compare to individual medals in figure skating. In other words her team gold medal from the 2018 Winter Olympics does not compare to evgenias silver medal in the individual event when she skated great and won a silver medal on a broken freaking foot.

 

[Amei]

Oh Please Amei, envy is the green eyed monster as they say. Medvedeva's skating and her medals are without question remarkable and the same can be said of Kaetlyn's. No other skater of her generation than KO, has won as many OGM's of all colours, as well as a World's Gold and Silver in a span of a 6 year career. Can you imagine what could have been accomplished if she hadn't missed 2 of those 6 years of competitive skating due to injuries in her prime?

All this coming at a time when most fans including judges, could not fathom Canadian women being even remotely competitive with Russian, American and Japanese women. This was reflected in marks given in some competitions. As Johnny Weir said, "If you had asked me at the start of the season if I thought 2 Canadian women would be on a Worlds podium..."

Please Amei, don't dismiss others and their accomplishments just to promote your favs. Canadian women slayed the hard way in that, they earned it!

If you are going to respond to my comment, to get context you should read the comment I quoted in my response - the poster I quoted remarked that Medvedeva's edge problems were exaggerated while no one called out Osmond on her lutz edge problems nearly as much.

I do not care who the 2 skaters are, nor is it an insult or statement of 'envy' what I said, it is a statement of fact: Osmond did not win gold as much as Medvedeva. Which in my opinion led to her not getting scrutinized as much for her technique problems as Medvedeva who won gold at most competitions.

Take out the skater names if you want to remove any potential bias you imagine that I have to understand the point of my initial response - if skater A and skater B have technique problems with bad edges but skater A is regularly winning gold at every competition with said technique and skater B is not - skater A is generally going to get more scrutiny than skater B because skater A is winning everything.

 

[Shayuki]

For me, the end of the figure skating season until May was the time I was eagerly looking forward to, so it's been difficult to get through this time without any figure skating. For next year, things are looking quite interesting especially when it comes to juniors, as the early 2007s have been quite impressive, especially since it's the first time in quite a while since there was a super talented skater who doesn't belong on team Tutberidze making her junior debut. In general, I feel like outside of Valieva the 2005 and 2006 age groups were quite shallow in comparison to both 2004 as well as what'll be after. 21-22 will be the big one, of course, which should have similar talent level to the 04 age group.

Speaking of 2004 ladies, the situation will be especially interesting with Trusova switching over to Plushenko. While she wasn't a skater I really enjoyed watching very much at all, it still is interesting to see whether she at least has more success than Tarakanova did. I didn't like the way Plushenko was talking about Tarakanova at all, so hopefully Plushenko's team will handle this better. As for the others, I hope Shcherbakova has more success in the major competitions this season - a gold would be fantastic. Not very convinced by Zagitova, and while Medvedeva showed some improvement in some aspects, I still don't think that she'll be able to accomplish that much next season, either. This next season is going to be very important when it comes to Olympic dreams, obviously, because I think that Valieva has some serious potential to do a repeat of Zagitova did, and in fact looks to be in a significantly stronger position to do so.

No you will not convince me or others including Olympic Team hockey, basketball or volleyball teams, that their medal is not real. Your attempts to somehow downgrade or diminish the accomplishments of other athletes, will not undo history, thq.

Why are you comparing team sports to an individual sport? That makes zero sense. At least use Archery or something, where the comparison actually makes sense and the methodology is similar(Though it actually is balanced, unlike figure skating which has unfair weighing for certain disciplines over others). Something that makes even less sense is the way you still continue to spam this completely unrelated thread about Osmond.

 

[Resa]

It would be more interesting for me if there was a team event, but for every single category. Then we could also see more skaters. lets say the 3A earned their way to worlds indivoduals, but Alina and Liza can go too, because of the team event (which could have for example 5 person teams)

 

[Greengemmonster]

The following is all dependant on Kamila being healthy and performances on the day but if everyone performed at their best (which was the case in 2018 where they were clean and just awesome all round):

*If Kamila just has her jumps now she's likely to win the gold
*If Kamila gets one more quad, it's game over and she's definitely winning the gold

I say this as a HUGE fan of someone else.

Kamila is........ very very very special!!!!!

 

[flanker]

Nothing is decided when the competitions (in fact even trainings ) didn't start yet. E.g. if Daria would get 3A (and her 2A is a top quality), she can be very strong competitor to Kamila, Sofia Akatieva or Sofia Samodelkina. Maiia, if she would stabilize her 4S, shouldn't be underestimated as well, at junior worolds her free program, apart from the shaky landing of the 4S and touching the ice, was high quality and she made huge big progress during the season. If clean, she could have even gained bronze, and still her 4th place was a great success, beating both Korean girls who were beating her during the GP series.

We will see more after several weeks of trainings. I must say I'm very excited that the trainings will start tomorrow and I hope there will be some info during the summer. And above all I wish all the girls to get back into the form quickly.

 

[Skatesocs]

I think everyone in here likes Osmond.

No.

 

[milkgirl]

My personal favourite is Kamila, provided that she stays healthy , doesn`t grow too much and is not affected by puberty. With her style and her flexibility and of course her jumps, she can win everything.

 

[plushyfan]

The little Kamila Valieva. When I noticed her, and I fell in love with her immediately . It was 5 years ago ! Unbeliveable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKR5cdPAdh0

 

[Greengemmonster]

The little Kamila Valieva. When I noticed her, and I fell in love with her immediately . It was 5 years ago ! Unbeliveable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKR5cdPAdh0

There is a bit of magic involved when it comes to Kamila.

There are so many skaters whom I think are insanely talented. And then there's Kamila!

 

[Sugar Coated]

This description may sound harsh to some here I guess (considering there have just been 5 pages of discussion about name abbreviations). But it perfectly summarizes how I feel about Evgenia's past performances as well, especially the 9-11 one.
I don't know why she changed her style, maybe cause of being freed of Averbukh's choreography haha. But good for her. And tastes differ, some here just stated they liked the miming.

It's such a fine line to walk where people subjectively deem your interpretation well done, you'll lose either way. Either you have no facial expression to the music and get criticized for it, like Trusova, or you start miming and get criticized for it, like Medvedeva.
Not everyone can be Yuna Kim I guess

I was new to figure skating in 2018 and could not stand Zhenya’s miming at first. It felt so over the top. It doesn’t bother me as much any more and now I sometimes can appreciate it after greater exposure to the sport.

But to me this is why I prefer Alena’s performance to Anna’s. A lot of Anna’s moves to me feel like posing. They are beautiful poses but there is something slightly exaggerated in the movements that sometimes to me makes it less sophisticated and fluid. Like she’s moving into the next pose. Alena here criticism for not being expressive in her face but I disagree entirely. She communicates with her eyes and very subtle expressions on her face. I mean, watch the end to her free skate. That performance could easily become corny or inappropriately sexual for someone her age but she manages to sell it and keep it just the right mix of subtle flirtations and elegance. Her subtly is what makes it truly artistic and sophisticated. She is absolutely communicating emotions but more subtly with her eyes and body. And she flows, it never feels like posing rather one fluid, graceful performance. Both girls are extremely talented but I think the miming and over expression actually detracts from the performance. Sorry for the rant! Extremely bored these days lol.

 

[Mawwerg]

Considering Trusova and Tuktamysheva will be in Kislovodsk camp together can we refer to them as 2T?

 

[Fried]

What about Titova? 3T! Rhymes even.