2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[meadow]

Just seen Kostantinova FS from yesterday. The video didn't have music for the first part, but for what I've seen it seemed great! I find her really improved this season, or maybe she just meets my tastes more this year, I don't know. I'm excited to see what she will do in future competitions! I really hope she will stay consistent because that has been a real issue in the past for her. Anyway, well done!

As for Kamila's exhibition, I really hope the fall wasn't too bad. In the end, when the commentator asked her to jump one more time, it was clear she wasn't into it and she wanted to get off the ice.
I have to admit that, as a fan, I like the exhibitions of Russian girls and especially the ones from Eteri's skaters because they don't water down the programs and they do difficult jumps like in competition, but I also get that sometimes is an unnecessary risk. It's exciting and not boring at all, but maybe it would be better to choose the safest way. I know skaters could get injured in a lot of ways when they skate, even when they do simple things, but getting injured in a gala just for the sake of doing the hardest jumps seems really unwise.

I've also seen Alysa Liu FS at Aurora Games and she really surprised me. I think is good that finally there are other skaters (her, Rika, for example) that could threaten the Russian dominance in the field. I think it makes things a lot more exciting for us fans and also it makes the competitions real competitions again when you don't know in advance who is going to win every time.

 

[neud]

I don‘t think she necessarily flutzes. But her lutz is overall just... weird. From the take off to the landing, it just seems like strange technique. Especially her combos, how she pauses, shifts the foot from the inside to the outside back to inside and only then reaches back.. I just have never seen anyone jump like that.

Judges evaluated her 3Lz-3T 4 3 3 4 2 4 4 4 4, but Fluture thinks her combo is somehow "weird" and "strange". Oh my God.

 

[starla16]

I don‘t think she necessarily flutzes. But her lutz is overall just... weird. From the take off to the landing, it just seems like strange technique. Especially her combos, how she pauses, shifts the foot from the inside to the outside back to inside and only then reaches back.. I just have never seen anyone jump like that.

its very bad technique the reason she makes mistakes with her combos, It will get worst when she gets older if not fixed.
That fall from the gala was from that terrible lutz take off

 

[karina17]

That commentator was nuts for watching a kid fall twice in the dark and then asking her to go jump a quad. He should know better, no thirteen-year-old is going to say no to a dare like that, especially not in front of that many people.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I think Alysa is the one to beat; she has the 3A and seems more artistically mature. With the injury that will not help Kamila. The Japanese ladies also are a threat.

Yes, I do think Alysa is probably going to be the top junior or at least a real challenge for Kamila, but no, Alysa is in NO WAY more artistic or mature than Kamila. Though her programs don't help her all that much, you can see through spirals, transitions and some parts of her SP that Kamila is an extremely artistic and mature skater,, and the judges seem to agree. And while Kawabata and Araki (and the new ones like Tanaka etc) are wonderful, I think right now the biggest threat for the Russians (beyond Alysa) are the Koreans. Seoyeong Wi, Seoyeon Ji, Haein Lee are all huge threats while I don't really see Araki or Kawabata making it to the JGPF.

Besides, Courchevel took place at a rather high altitude, so this isn't even the best of Kamila. If she performs like she did at test skates, I wouldn't be so sure about Alysa beating her.

 

[Fluture]

That commentator was nuts for watching a kid fall twice in the dark and then asking her to go jump a quad. He should know better, no thirteen-year-old is going to say no to a dare like that, especially not in front of that many people.

Exactly. Especially since Eteri girls are perfectionists by nature, so if Kamila did not want to to attempt to jump that combo again, let her! She knows something‘s off then. It doesn‘t even have to be an injury but if she fell on a sore spot or just was too tired and didn‘t want to risk anything... it‘s just not cool how he urged her to jump again. What should she have said? No? She probably didn‘t even understand him properly and there was a big audience.

 

[flanker]

What the hell are all these people talking about??
What is your plroblem with Kamila's lutz edge?
1 Lz SP http://prntscr.com/owyvg6
2 Lz FP http://prntscr.com/owvw0q
3 Lz FP http://prntscr.com/owvww9

This was a hoax that somehow spread here about half year ago and I too posted a picture with Kamila's lutz taking off. The voices were silenced for a while, but now that delusion spreads again. And unfortunately, it's in human's mind rather believe in fiction than see reality.

 

[Fluture]

Judges evaluated her 3Lz-3T 4 3 3 4 2 4 4 4 4, but Fluture thinks her combo is somehow "weird" and "strange". Oh my God.

So, you think judges are 100% correct all the time? Okay then. Good for you.

 

[flanker]

So, you think judges are 100% correct all the time? Okay then. Good for you.

You're right. We will revoke all the judges and establish a new panel from GS users

 

[Fluture]

You're rigt. We will revoke all the judges and establish a new panel from GS users

No. We’re not experts here, at least I am not, no idea about you. But some things are just blatantly obvious and it annoys me that whining about judges is only allowed in some cases whereas in others criticism is met with that “BUT the judges said....“ card. Seriously. Just out of interest: Do you believe Evgenia Medvedeva has a correct lutz edge most of the time? Because judges do. But you don‘t see me running around claiming Zhenya‘s lutz is correct just because the judges make it seem as if it was. According to them basically everyone at Worlds 2019 had a correct lutz edge, even though they actually mistook Sofia’s lutz for a flip to a degree that they entered it incorrectly in the system. No one should revoke the judges but it’s not like they’re infallible either.

As for Kamila: I didn‘t say her combination wasn‘t good. It didn‘t have particularly good flow between the two jumps but she has a beautiful rippon and gets good height. So, yeah, I‘m not even having a problem with the judges there. I never said she flutzes either because I don‘t think she does. I just said her technique was strange because I‘ve never seen anyone jump like that and as of right now, it doesn‘t seem to be very sustainable or practical. We will see and maybe she‘ll surprise me. Rant over lol.

 

[Orlov]

So, you think judges are 100% correct all the time? Okay then. Good for you.

Ahh... Eight judges at the same time? From different countries? Come on, be reasonable.

 

[fabienne1996]

Ahh... Eight judges at the same time? From different countries? Come on, be reasonable.

Ok the next time I see anyone whining in here about now for example zhenyas lutz edge is not correct, and that the judges should give her different scores for that I will use your words in her, but they are judges and they know best right?! So if the jjdges think that in one competition most skaters do not haventhe wrong edge when we can see they do have than heck we are wrong because they are the judges and know better than us right? And nobody even said that kamila has a flutz, just that her take of in the combo is a bit weird .

 

[ruga]

Kamila's combo may look weird, but it's less weird than it was last season - now she takes less time to go from lutz landing to toe take off. Kamila leans forwards a bit, but does it quickly. She certainly gets points for good air position, great height, good landing, transitions. For me (I'm no judge though) it's a +3 and a few judges agree.

 

[Fluture]

Kamila's combo may look weird, but it's less weird than it was last season - now she takes less time to go from lutz landing to toe take off. Kamila leans forwards a bit, but does it quickly. She certainly gets points for good air position, great height, good landing, transitions. For me (I'm no judge though) it's a +3 and a few judges agree.

Yes.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwma-lSHa-2/?igshid=6ptfvfcq716b

This is from last season. The first and last competition. So, I think she‘s working on it and steadily improving. Which might be a reason why she had some problems on the lutz at this competition, they‘re trying to rework that technique. She still has time after all. And this might be her only weakness, so for 13 she‘s ridiculously good anyway. It‘s just a question of whether that technique can last once she grows but I think they‘re looking at it from the way her combo changed from last season to this.

 

[Vandevska]

Watching Alysa made me respect Sasha more....

What the hell are all these people talking about??
What is your plroblem with Kamila's lutz edge?
1 Lz SP http://prntscr.com/owyvg6
2 Lz FP http://prntscr.com/owvw0q
3 Lz FP http://prntscr.com/owvww9

I think the person meant "edge" in the sense of "advantage" in this context.

 

[Orlov]

Ok the next time I see anyone whining in here about now for example zhenyas lutz edge is not correct, and that the judges should give her different scores for that I will use your words in her, but they are judges and they know best right?! So if the jjdges think that in one competition most skaters do not haventhe wrong edge when we can see they do have than heck we are wrong because they are the judges and know better than us right? And nobody even said that kamila has a flutz, just that her take of in the combo is a bit weird .

Firstly. The edge is called by a technical team of three people, and not a team of judges of 9 people. Do you understand that there is a difference? Let me give a close analogy - a coin can fall tails three times (1/8 probability), but if it falls tails 8 times, then the probability is already 1/256. In stochastic problems, it is critical to have as many averaged quantities as possible.

Secondly, and this is very important - the technical team gives the result on a very rough scale, in fact, a discrete scale having three divisions - a norma, "!" and "e". And technical team does not give out averaged values. A bit of arithmetic - imagine that the true wrong edge is -1, the true unclear edge is 0, and the true right edge is 1. And imagine that at the same time there is a more detailed scale, as in GOE. And the first member of the technical team believes that the edge is unclear, but closer to the wrong one, and gives -0.3, the second member not sure and gives 0.5, and the third (Medvedeva’s big secret fan ) says that “it was certainly not perfect, but he’s ready to give 0.7". The average value is 0.3 (and a hypothetical team of 9 people would give 0.22 in this situation, for example). And in the case of Tuktamysheva, everyone agreed on 1 And we would all see the difference. But in the existing system, the technical teams in both cases just call the right edge.

And the line judges who give GOE should not look at the edge - this is simply not their task. So it turns out such a paradox: Medvedeva's lutz rated better than Tutamysheva's. But this is more about small flaws in the system, which in some rare cases (as with the final of the Russian Cup) can become critical.

To summarize: we talked about a detailed grade scale (11 positions) of nine line judges, averaged and personally known grade. And you gave an incorrect example with an grade scale of 3 positions from 3 people. You do not know detailed opinion of the technical team members, you do know only their consolidated position. These are completely different things.

 

[[email protected]]

No. We’re not experts here, at least I am not, no idea about you. But some things are just blatantly obvious and it annoys me that whining about judges is only allowed in some cases whereas in others criticism is met with that “BUT the judges said....“ card. Seriously. Just out of interest: Do you believe Evgenia Medvedeva has a correct lutz edge most of the time? Because judges do. But you don‘t see me running around claiming Zhenya‘s lutz is correct just because the judges make it seem as if it was.

I could try to explain. There are cases, indeed, which are obvious and somehow relate to "the rules of the game" which are not official. And Medvedeva's case is one of the best to illustrate it. Of course, it is just my speculation but I see the logic behind that. Zhenya had multiple lutz edge calls in her career. Most of them were ! rather than e. But for me it is clear that she was not judged completely objectively in this department. Medvedeva's lutz edge was frequently forgiven because her main rival Osmond had the same issue. If only one of them were punished with "e" that would be against "unofficial rules" and would be unfair from common sense as well. At the same time, there was "the price" - the system did not have to be abused. Hence, Zhenya had just 1 lutz in 2 programs - without lutz her BV would be grossly penalized. Kaethlyn was "more pragmatic" and had 2 lutzes. Still, she did not go for 3. As soon as Medvedeva started to increase the number of lutzes last season the calls became stricter - she broke the unofficial rules and had to pay with calls.

Why did it happen in the first place? I see several reasons. Medvedeva is an outstanding skater, the top Russian lady for some seasons. There are too harsh penalties for the wrong lutz edge which 99% of viewers do not see in the first place without slow-mo. There are no black and white rules about the correct edge. Medvedeva at first has it outside but then switches to inside right before the take-off. 5 years ago I saw the same thing with Wakaba whose lutz is praised by many. We had heated debates. The popular opinion about my picture which showed obvious inside edge was that at this moment her weight is already off the blade that's why the edge angle is not relevant any more. To me it is too difficult to comprehend and clearly is not black and white.

The thing is - it is not random. We who follow the sport for some time know these several "judging anomalies" quite well. Not that we have to agree with them because they are unfair to other skaters. But they are known and may be treated as "unofficial rules" rather than the pretext to say that judging in figure skating is irrelevant per se.

 

[Vandevska]

I miss our girls... Test skates can't come fast enough.

Firstly. The edge is called by a technical team of three people, and not a team of judges of 9 people. Do you understand that there is a difference? Let me give a close analogy - a coin can fall tails three times (1/8 probability), but if it falls tails 8 times, then the probability is already 1/256. In stochastic problems, it is critical to have as many averaged quantities as possible.

Secondly, and this is very important - the technical team gives the result on a very rough scale, in fact, a discrete scale having three divisions - a norma, "!" and "e". And technical team does not give out averaged values. A bit of arithmetic - imagine that the true wrong edge is -1, the true unclear edge is 0, and the true right edge is 1. And imagine that at the same time there is a more detailed scale, as in GOE. And the first member of the technical team believes that the edge is unclear, but closer to the wrong one, and gives -0.3, the second member not sure and gives 0.5, and the third (Medvedeva’s big secret fan ) says that “it was certainly not perfect, but he’s ready to give 0.7". The average value is 0.3 (and a hypothetical team of 9 people would give 0.22 in this situation, for example). And in the case of Tuktamysheva, everyone agreed on 1 And we would all see the difference. But in the existing system, the technical teams in both cases just call the right edge.

And the line judges who give GOE should not look at the edge - this is simply not their task. So it turns out such a paradox: Medvedeva's lutz rated better than Tutamysheva's. But this is more about small flaws in the system, which in some rare cases (as with the final of the Russian Cup) can become critical.

To summarize: we talked about a detailed grade scale (11 positions) of nine line judges, averaged and personally known grade. And you gave an incorrect example with an grade scale of 3 positions from 3 people. You do not know detailed opinion of the brigade members, you do know only the consolidated position. These are completely different things.

I think that this is a good analogy.

 

[karina17]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1jJpX5pmfa/?igshid=16ikg6uycergo

Please appreciate this meme. I don't know if it's going to get me a warning or not (because there's a swear word in it) but I've been laughing at it for the past ten minutes. Help

 

[ruga]

Well, Evgenia in fact had her lutz called the majority of times. https://skatingscores.com/unit/rus_evgenia_medvedeva/
Scroll way down this page, and you will see what kind of score she received for her lutzes each competition. But she was never called in most important competitions - Worlds and Olympics. That's what causes controversy IMO.