2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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About this Lutz edge discussion and Anna.

We all know that this Amano guy who was judging these championships are a strict guy and nit picking everything.
So if he is giving out URs that we think might be borderline or too strict - why would we at the same time think that he would ignore edge calls on Lutzes?

I suspect that people don't really know how to judge a Lutz edge at all.

I agree with you. Also some people refer to other people who "saw" wrong edges and to tech callers during GP series, the callers who managed to give e to Alina who never had any lutz edge issues while ignoring the edge of Mariah. Selective "evidence" in my book.

 

[Mishaminion]

I have a gif of Anna's lutz from her SP on my phone but have no idea how to uplaod it here.

Though I think the slowmo replay on video will do quite enough, so providing a gif will change no one's opinion.

My opinion is, it was no way an "e" lutz but ! would have been justified.

This is what I've been trying to say. Asking for a gif is suspect to me because it really isn't that different, in fact the process of converting to gif/compression would actually make it HARDER to judge the edge.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you. Also some people refer to other people who "saw" wrong edges and to tech callers during GP series, the callers who managed to give e to Alina who never had any lutz edge issues while ignoring the edge of Mariah. Selective "evidence" in my book.

And like others have pointed out before. Someone never getting an e before doesn't mean they never ever deserve one

 

[Fluture]

Her Lutz was inside in the SP and completely flat in the FS

Watching live, I thought the edge in the SP was inside as well but on the replay it looks more flat. I don’t think it was completely inside to warrant an e call.

 

[colormyworld240]

I'm not trying to get you to admit anything. I'm saying this is obviously a very divided topic with different people seeing different things and do not think a gif would change what you say you see at all, because how is it really any different to a slow motion replay?

Where did I say it has to make a difference? I said I could be convinced otherwise with a specific look into a jump/another video or angle, etc. Notice I haven't commented on what you can and can't see. I'm commenting on you saying what I can't see/will never be able to see.

 

[[email protected]]

Oh great! This means that--assuming all 3 A's go to Worlds--that they will all be in the final group as long as Kaori doesn't go to Worlds! :agree:

Even if some of them won't be in the final group I am sure that it won't be reflected in their score.

 

[colormyworld240]

Oh great! This means that--assuming all 3 A's go to Worlds--that they will all be in the final group as long as Kaori doesn't go to Worlds! :agree:

Back to some sane discussion:

I think anytime you have the combo as your last pass in the SP, there is a bigger chance that you can miss the final group of the FS. The 3A have not missed their combos in the SP this season, but it can happen. Especially since we've seen here that while triples (Lz/F) are pretty easy for the 3A now, they can still fall on them and miss the entire combo. I always wonder if the 10% BV increase is worth all the risk, but it does make it more interesting. Fully backloaded SPs that Evgenia, Alina, and Kaori did were much less risky in that sense.

 

[Mishaminion]

I'm probably going to leave before I get really annoyed.


It is always the same here, people are never ever happy for someone, they have to ruin the moment with accusations, drama, outcries, conspiracy theories, wuzrobbeds and even blatant accusations of rigged results.

Alyona AND Anna were both amazing though not perfect. Alyona's sublime SP saved her the victory, Anna would have won overall had she not fallen.

 

[Fluture]

I'm probably going to leave before I get really annoyed.

I knew it would start as soon as I saw Aliona won. But whatever, I‘m happy for her. And Anna‘s getting a small gold for the FS so all is well.

 

[Mishaminion]

I knew it would start as soon as I saw Aliona won. But whatever, I‘m happy for her. And Anna‘s getting a small gold for the FS so all is well.

It is like the boy who cried wolf.

If people cry "wuzrobbed rigged raaahhh" every single competition then if a real scandal was to happen nobody would take the accusation seriously.

 

[Mishaminion]

Where did I say it has to make a difference? I said I could be convinced otherwise with a specific look into a jump/another video or angle, etc. Notice I haven't commented on what you can and can't see. I'm commenting on you saying what I can't see/will never be able to see.

Well you specifically asked for a gif but okay.
Sorry I can't help you, I don't have what you are asking for.
I'm also sorry if I seem quite confrontational.
Bad day
Very cranky
Also hate the drama after every competition...should be used to it but it always throws me

 

[Fluture]

It is like the boy who cried wolf.

If people cry "wuzrobbed rigged raaahhh" every single competition then if a real scandal was to happen nobody would take the accusation seriously.

(Real scandal...Cough cough ice dance)

Okay, off-topic.

Now, back on topic: Liam Cross congratulating Aliona, saying he and Aljona biggrin Savchenko were cheering her on!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7wgFqLI5sm/?igshid=gpcmzjppvrxx

 

[Mishaminion]

(Real scandal...Cough cough ice dance)

Okay, off-topic.

Now, back on topic: Liam Cross congratulating Aliona, saying he and Aljona biggrin Savchenko were cheering her on!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7wgFqLI5sm/?igshid=gpcmzjppvrxx

I don't follow ice dance because it would enrage and stress me out even more, real or not real scandals generally do lol.

I want to call the Kostornaia/Savchenko fusion Alyijona

 

[Fluture]

Favorite moment. :luv17:

Anna looks really tall here! :shocked:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7wmUFip2We/?igshid=1iz3rp72ukegb

 

[Elaine]

Btw... I know it's 3A that brings Alyona the titles but her 3F+3T is still my favourite jump of hers. It is just stunning

 

[skatenewbie]

Oh great! This means that--assuming all 3 A's go to Worlds--that they will all be in the final group as long as Kaori doesn't go to Worlds! :agree:

Alena and Anna probably safe in the last group at Worlds but Sasha is not. There is Rika, Satoko, Bradie, Alena and Anna above her and there is Mariah and Eunsoo who could move up above Sasha with a 6th place in 4CC which is doable for Mariah at least, especially after how she skate at US nats. Higuchi also could move above Sasha with 5th place at 4CC.

 

[Mishaminion]

Alena and Anna probably safe in the last group at Worlds but Sasha is not. There is Rika, Satoko, Bradie, Alena and Anna above her and there is Mariah and Eunsoo who could move up above Sasha with a 6th place in 4CC which is doable for Mariah at least, especially after how she skate at US nats. Higuchi also could move above Sasha with 5th place at 4CC.

Oh...now I am very conflicted because I am hoping Mariah actually medals at 4CC!

 

[Jontor]

I'm probably going to leave before I get really annoyed.


It is always the same here, people are never ever happy for someone, they have to ruin the moment with accusations, drama, outcries, conspiracy theories, wuzrobbeds and even blatant accusations of rigged results.

Alyona AND Anna were both amazing though not perfect. Alyona's sublime SP saved her the victory, Anna would have won overall had she not fallen.

Then I suggest that you don't throw out accusations yourself about edge calls and what was right and whatnot.

But I fully agree, we should be happy for the 3A. They were all amazing.

 

[Mishaminion]

Then I suggest that you don't throw out accusations yourself about edge calls and what was right and whatnot.

But I fully agree, we should be happy for the 3A. They were all amazing.

Well I do think Anna should have got !

But I'm not going to start any wuzrobbed/rigged/conspiracy theories about anything

I think the result was overall correct, I've kind of learned to accept wonky judging but as long as the actual placements work out alright it isn't so bad.

I think Anna has a very very good chance of winning Worlds, she seems to skate her best when she is not the favourite/not under as much pressure.

Alyona has now won both of the big internationals this season. She was favourite to win Nationals but Anna sailed past her.
Winning Euros has added pressure to Alyona and eased some of it for Anna again.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I'll preface this by saying that I've always loved all of the 3A but have always held a soft spot for Anna, so I may be biased, but:

Anna deserved to win today.

None of the 3A were flawless today, so the win can't go to the one who was clean. Anna and Alena each had one fall, Anna on a quad lutz and Alena on a triple lutz. Each landed two difficult elements - Anna the 4Lz and 4F, and Alena a pair of incredible 3As. Anna backed up her skate with a 3Lz-3Lo and 3F-Eu-3S, while Alena had a (stunning) but easier 3F-3T. Both had level 3 steps with good GOE, and both have amazing spins, although Anna has more flexibility in her Biellmann and Alena more innovative positions. So, Anna wins technically for me - both with one fall, two ultra-difficult elements, and two exquisite combinations, but Anna with a harder element that she fell on.

Since both had a fall, their PCS was lower than in the past. I agree that Alena should have a higher score for skating skills, but today I think Anna was much better in interpretation and performance. That wasn't reflected in the scores. In the end, though, it's a sport, and with each skater having a fall, the one who produced the more difficult of their beautiful elements should've won. That's Anna.

It seems that Anna has to be completely clean (or have a minor error) with three quads to beat Alena with three triple axels and a mistake. That to me is critically unfair, and I think the problem stems from the SP rules. Triple axels and quads are both incredibly difficult, and yet only triple axels are allowed in the short. The reasoning for that aside, it would appear that the ISU is discouraging quads - discouraging harder elements - by having these rules and scoring Anna and Alena the way they did today. That's not progress for the sport, and it's disheartening. Fall on the second quad lutz aside, this was one of Anna's best performances (she's clearly grown into this program and it's so exciting to see!) but it seems like what she's doing isn't enough. And as a fan, it makes me upset and sad for her.

All this aside, she seems to do best when she's the underdog, so maybe this will let her go in and win Worlds decisively .

I disagree. Alyona is million times better than Anna. Alyona is the full package, she is very fluid, has very good technique and the best skating skills. Also she has outside edge on her lutz (even though it is not deep outside edge) and the prerotation on her lutz is about 90 degrees. She rotates 2,75 rotations in the air when she jumps her triple lutz. Anna, on the other hand, prerotates a lot on her lutz jumps - more than 220 degrees on her quad lutz. She rotates 2,75 in the air and 0,5 on the ice for her quad lutz... the other 0,5 is missing completely... Not only that, but her lutz edge is flat. I think she should receive unclear edge for her lutz jumps, especially that she jumps 4 lutzes in her FS! And the GOE for her lutz jumps should go down since she prerotates a lot.
As for the falls today - Alyona fell on an easier element, not an ultra c element and therefore lost less points. Isn't it better to fall down on an easier element than on one of your ultra c elements?

 

[colormyworld240]

Well I do think Anna should have got !

But I'm not going to start any wuzrobbed/rigged/conspiracy theories about anything

I think the result was overall correct, I've kind of learned to accept wonky judging but as long as the actual placements work out alright it isn't so bad.

I think Anna has a very very good chance of winning Worlds, she seems to skate her best when she is not the favourite/not under as much pressure.

Alyona has now won both of the big internationals this season. She was favourite to win Nationals but Anna sailed past her.
Winning Euros has added pressure to Alyona and eased some of it for Anna again.

*Sigh* And how is that less of a conspiracy theory than those who thought Anna should've won? Couldn't it just be a difference of opinion? How is it that one disagreement over judging is more valid than another; both have multiple people backing them up, no one's crying wolf. Who's to decide which "scandal" is more "real" than another?

For example there were many who though Sasha was overscored in the short, and many who thought it was fair. Is that a more real scandal and the other scandals? I don't think we should be labelling others' opinions as conspiracy theories or real/not real if we've giving our own opinions as well.