2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Tolstoj]

I don't know what countries becuse even in USA or Canada they usually start at the same age (4-5), the same with most european countries I'm aware of, incl. Italy, Austria and my own, not to speak about Japan and South Korea, but if there are such, it's the cause of those countries, not the international rules.

And I simply don't think there is anything requiring to be fixed now. The only thing that was wrong was when the medals were split between someone's "long-term queens" before the competition has even started and that times are gone, thanks Darwin.

I was thinking it more from a financial standpoint. In many cases the federation doesn't cover all the costs, the family needs to pay and FS is not a cheap sport.

You need the investment to afford such training regime, yes in Europe and US they also start to skate early (that's actually not always true though) but most skaters learn their triple jumps and 3-3 later, also because they just don't train all that much at that early age. You can see it in juniors too, very few have their 3-3 done and ready at the age of 13.

Skaters like Alysa Liu are very much an exception rather than the norm.

 

[KOBOT37]

I don't think that's a fair comparison cause what you're seeing right now is the result of the current rules.

Because you turn juniors at the age of 13 and seniors at 15, in Russia they start working on quads and 3A at the age of 11-12, basically immediately after you get the 3-3.

Old and Old.

12-12 years old Krustalny Girls have already stable quads. Now they start landing it at 10

And if You don't have 3-3 at the age of 9 Eteri herself shames you in front of everyone and Marina Hoffman writes a dedicated IG post, telling everyone how lazy you are and how you don't want to work.

Learning 3-3 at 11-12?! that is so 2010s

first of all Khrustalny would start to accept skaters only later

Khrustalny accepts <5 kids who still don't know how to skate, are you sure age limit is going to change that?!

and they'd start working on quads later too

For same reason, pretty much everybody who has been anywhere near the rinks where quads are trained have claimed that the earlier you start learning quads, the better.

It's not a matter of ideal FS, it's just the current definition of seniors for FS doesn't make any sense anymore

it's amusing how so many people in FS community have little to no understanding why age restricted competitions exist at the first place

 

[KOBOT37]

also because they just don't train all that much at that early age.

Out of curiosity, can we do something to make it fair for people who don't train all that much at later ages? Asking for a friend

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

An excellent idea in theory, but how sustainable will this be in practice, where most clubs, programs and federations are strapped for cash? Pre-novice (<11), novice (11-12), junior (13-14), medior (15-17) and senior (18 and above) looks ideal on paper, but competitive circuits have to be arranged, sponsors found, an advance in age and to the next level should be seamless. Which means training loads won’t be any less due to the need to learn new elements required in the next level. Or not, ultra-si will remain a pretty exclusive domain I am inclined to think.

Only large, well financed and systematically organised programs, well organised and financed, like in Russia allow for this layered division and perpetual growth in level.

And even then, the chance of 'earning a return on investment' is pretty slim, with only so few lucrative post competition deals available. It remains entirely to be seen wether a commercially viable and sustainable cirquit is possible with after adult skaters skated competitively till their mid twenties or later.

I'll pay for a competition with the level and excitement provided by those Awesome And Amazing Aces, and pass by any 'adult skating shows' with stars past their peak.

I agree with this, there needs to be excitement on the scene, young skaters do that. Sometimes people point the finger at puberty but the truth is that in gymnastics and figure skating, sometimes growth signals the end of a career. Sometimes, not systematically.

I think skating should adapt the system of gymnastics. Don't ban any quads or such, but raise the age limit to 16. 17 would suck the excitement out of it all and 15 is just proving to be too, bleh

 

[flanker]

I was thinking it more from a financial standpoint. In many cases the federation doesn't cover all the costs, the family needs to pay and FS is not a cheap sport.

You need the investment to afford such training regime, yes in Europe and US they also start to skate early (that's actually not always true though) but most skaters learn their triple jumps and 3-3 later, also because they just don't train all that much at that early age. You can see it in juniors too, very few have their 3-3 done and ready at the age of 13.

Skaters like Alysa Liu are very much an exception rather than the norm.

Again, not just in Russia, in most of the Europe it is usual that sport and children's clubs are in some way supported by a state or its institutios, army, police, cities. ou can see italian skaters with the "Police" or "Aeronautica" writings on their sportswear. Maybe the support is not THAT big as in Russia, but still even russian families have to make many (not only) finantial sacrifices if they want to support their child on the top level, not just skaters, listen the story of Yelena Isinbayeva for instance. And look how important it is for a skater in Russia to get into a national team to gain some more support.

I'm not sure about Alisa, but even skaters like 4A aren't born every day in Russia. That system of support is not new and didn't produce such amount of good skaters before. It's much more about the damn good and effective training system in one particular school (that others not just in Russia try to copy more or less in order not to stay too much behind).

Still, I think the question of finance in particular countries has absolutely nothing to do with the question of the age eligibility. Otherwise we could start changing the rules in football because there are much more money in football in England, Italy or Spain than in many other countries. Again, the only thing that should be decesive here would be if the age eligibility has some significant impact on health and if by raising it the danger for health would be lower. So far I haven't seen any convincing argument about this.

And remember, we can't raise the age just for the girls, it would have to be done for all other categories as well, and of course, in pair disciplines it could make pretty big chaos. Now men in pairs/ice dance have the limit 21, but if all the age limits would be increased for 2-3 years, because there has to be kept some transition period, we could potentially see like 24 y.o. men still in juniors. Crazy idea, isn't it?

 

[skatesofgold]

I agree with this, there needs to be excitement on the scene, young skaters do that. Sometimes people point the finger at puberty but the truth is that in gymnastics and figure skating, sometimes growth signals the end of a career. Sometimes, not systematically.

I think skating should adapt the system of gymnastics. Don't ban any quads or such, but raise the age limit to 16. 17 would suck the excitement out of it all and 15 is just proving to be too, bleh

Can we stop saying that the gymnastics age limit is 16 full stop? If your birthday is December 31, you're 15 for the entire season basically. Figure skating is very similar in that someone could be 15 up to the end of the season. It just uses a different wording as the figure skating season is July to June versus January to December. Figure skating says turn 15 by the start of the season instead of 16 by the end like gymnastics does. It's the same exact age limit. And I don't see any point in figure skating using the calender year because that's not how the figure skating season runs.

 

[Tolstoj]

Out of curiosity, can we do something to make it fair for people who don't train all that much at later ages? Asking for a friend

If you don't train as much at later ages, you either work in shows or keep competing in adult skating, or you study to become coach or choreographer, or even you work as organizers, judge, technical specialists,... there are places for that already if you want to keep being involved in the sport.

 

[Vilord]

I think the minimum age will help bringing a fair competition, cause in many western countries it's impossible to raise skaters at that early age as Russia does, they become seniors later because there is no other way.

I am swedish and dont fully know what it is like in other contries but it is not possible or legal to raise skaters here like they/(you) do in russia or even the USA in some ways. From what Ive read and seen in interviews young Russian skaters do their schooling at a somewhat slower pace where they only go to school a few days a week and get more home assignments to compensate for missing several days a week of school. In the US however I think it is quite common for young skaters to be home schooled allowing more time spent in the icerink. Both these systems allow for a more flexible schooling where the school year can be planned after the skating season.
This is not possible here in our contry where it is in the law that every child has to attend a real physical shool (no online except in corona times) for a certain number of hours each week spread over five days (mon-fri). It varies with age but for 7yo which is the first year its obligatory its about 5-6hours a day including lunch and breaks and at age 15 which is the last obligatory year its more 6-8hours per day.

I guess it would be possible to have some sort of skating academy for children under 7yo insted of normal preeschool but such a system does not exist here.

Im not saying one is better than the other but each contry has its own rules and systems that make some things easier and others harder.

 

[MiraiFan]

I am swedish and dont fully know what it is like in other contries but it is not possible or legal to raise skaters here like they/(you) do in russia or even the USA in some ways. From what Ive read and seen in interviews young Russian skaters do their schooling at a somewhat slower pace where they only go to school a few days a week and get more home assignments to compensate for missing several days a week of school. In the US however I think it is quite common for young skaters to be home schooled allowing more time spent in the icerink. Both these systems allow for a more flexible schooling where the school year can be planned after the skating season.
This is not possible here in our contry where it is in the law that every child has to attend a real physical shool (no online except in corona times) for a certain number of hours each week spread over five days (mon-fri). It varies with age but for 7yo which is the first year its obligatory its about 5-6hours a day including lunch and breaks and at age 15 which is the last obligatory year its more 6-8hours per day.

I guess it would be possible to have some sort of skating academy for children under 7yo insted of normal preeschool but such a system does not exist here.

Im not saying one is better than the other but each country has its own rules and systems that make some things easier and others harder.

I think long term, Swedish kids are better off in this system--they get a complete education and are socialized in a diverse group of peers. I am shocked in the US that girls jumping only doubles opt to home school...

 

[kmw227]

World Standings have been updated.

http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm

3. Shcherbakova
4. Trusova
6. Kostornaia
8. Zagitova
10. Samodurova
11. Tuktamysheva
13. Medvedeva
25. Konstantinova

Does this mean that Stasya is no longer guaranteed a Grand Prix as she is out of the top 24?

 

[Vilord]

World Standings have been updated.

http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm

25. Konstantinova

Does this mean that Stasya is no longer guaranteed a Grand Prix as she is out of the top 24?

Yes. I predicted this some weeks ago when worlds was canceled

 

[ruga]

World Standings have been updated.

http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm

3. Shcherbakova
4. Trusova
6. Kostornaia
8. Zagitova
10. Samodurova
11. Tuktamysheva
13. Medvedeva
25. Konstantinova

Does this mean that Stasya is no longer guaranteed a Grand Prix as she is out of the top 24?

Probably not. RusFed can still get her included in the events if they would want so since there are always some empty spots, but considered she has been removed from team reserve, I doubt that.

Also, what are your predictions for GP spot distribution? The GP criteria is not clear and I'm not even sure if the series will take place as planned, but still better have something to discuss my guess is:
Shcherbakova, Kostornaia, Trusova, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva, Sinitsina get 2 spots each. The other possible 4 are distributed among Vasilieva(SB), Samodurova and Guliakova (host spot). My bet is that Samodurova gets two and Vasilieva and Guliakova get one each.

 

[kmw227]

Yes. I predicted this some weeks ago when worlds was canceled

Well, it's good to have confirmation now. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if she still got one because the fed likes her a lot but personally I don't think it would be a smart move.

 

[SkateSkates]

Probably not. RusFed can still get her included in the events if they would want so since there are always some empty spots, but considered she has been removed from team reserve, I doubt that.

Also, what are your predictions for GP spot distribution? The GP criteria is not clear and I'm not even sure if the series will take place as planned, but still better have something to discuss my guess is:
Shcherbakova, Kostornaia, Trusova, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva, Sinitsina get 2 spots each. The other possible 4 are distributed among Vasilieva(SB), Samodurova and Guliakova (host spot). My bet is that Samodurova gets two and Vasilieva and Guliakova get one each.

Agree. This makes the most sense.

This is of course assuming the GP goes on as planned, with all 6 events, which is still very much up in the air IMO.

 

[Happy Skates]

Probably not. RusFed can still get her included in the events if they would want so since there are always some empty spots, but considered she has been removed from team reserve, I doubt that.

Also, what are your predictions for GP spot distribution? The GP criteria is not clear and I'm not even sure if the series will take place as planned, but still better have something to discuss my guess is:
Shcherbakova, Kostornaia, Trusova, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva, Sinitsina get 2 spots each. The other possible 4 are distributed among Vasilieva(SB), Samodurova and Guliakova (host spot). My bet is that Samodurova gets two and Vasilieva and Guliakova get one each.

I still don't understand why people think that Guliakova will get the host spot? She is 58th on the WS list and not on the SB list at all. I guess because she's technically on the WS list it in theory could happen, but 58th in WS is way lower than any Russian I can remember getting a spot with. Yes, she is on the reserve team, but so was Gubanova last year, who also happened to be in the top 24 SB and technically "guaranteed" a spot didn't even get one. Yes, this year is a lot less crowded than last, but I just don't see it happening with a 58th and a reserve team. Last year they favored place on the SB/WS lists over a place on the national team. Sakhanovich who was higher on the SB list and Sotskova who was higher on the WS list each got one over Gubanova, even though neither of them were on the national team while Gubanova was. So I would imagine that Konstantinova and/or Tarakanova, who are at #25 on the SB and WS list respectively, would be favored over someone like Guliakova who is not even close to the top 24 on either. And who knows, Tarakanova may still be put on the junior team next year for all we know, and girls on the junior team have gotten GP spots plenty of times.

Anyways, I agree with you on the lineup other than Guliakova. I would guess that probably Vasilieva would get 2 instead of 1 (that would perfectly give every "guaranteed" girl two spots), or I would think the other spot would go to Tarakanova or Konstantinova, but I think the former is more likely to happen considering Konstantinova was actively removed from the team and Tarakanova has never really been favored by RusFed.

 

[ruga]

I still don't understand why people think that Guliakova will get the host spot? She is 58th on the WS list and not on the SB list at all. I guess because she's technically on the WS list it in theory could happen, but 58th in WS is way lower than any Russian I can remember getting a spot with. Yes, she is on the reserve team, but so was Gubanova last year, who also happened to be in the top 24 SB and technically "guaranteed" a spot didn't even get one. Yes, this year is a lot less crowded than last, but I just don't see it happening with a 58th and a reserve team. Last year they favored place on the SB/WS lists over a place on the national team. Sakhanovich who was higher on the SB list and Sotskova who was higher on the WS list each got one over Gubanova, even though neither of them were on the national team while Gubanova was. So I would imagine that Konstantinova and/or Tarakanova, who are at #25 on the SB and WS list respectively, would be favored over someone like Guliakova who is not even close to the top 24 on either. And who knows, Tarakanova may still be put on the junior team next year for all we know, and girls on the junior team have gotten GP spots plenty of times.

Anyways, I agree with you on the lineup other than Guliakova. I would guess that probably Vasilieva would get 2 instead of 1 (that would perfectly give every "guaranteed" girl two spots), or I would think the other spot would go to Tarakanova or Konstantinova, but I think the former is more likely to happen considering Konstantinova was actively removed from the team and Tarakanova has never really been favored by RusFed.

Guliakova looked very great in her last competitions: RusNats and Russian Cup final. SB, WS and everything else does not affect the probability of skater getting a host spot - the federation can choose whoever they like. Since Gulyakova performed the best at domestic competitions, I believe she has the highest chances of being chosen. Konstantinova is no longer on national team and really didn't deliver this season finishing near last place in her GP events.

I'd certainly like Tarakanova to get a spot, but maybe that could happen at the expense of Samodurova's/Vasilieva's 2nd spot. Tarakanova didn't perform neither in junior nor in senior Nationals and didn't get to JGPF so she is less likely to be considered than Gulyakova but can get a non host spot if RusFed pushes her during assignment process

 

[Alex65]

Given the incomplete 19/20 season, test skates and challengers (if that happens) will be crucial, I think.

 

[Happy Skates]

Guliakova looked very great in her last competitions: RusNats and Russian Cup final. SB, WS and everything else does not affect the probability of skater getting a host spot - the federation can choose whoever they like. Since Gulyakova performed the best at domestic competitions, I believe she has the highest chances of being chosen. Konstantinova is no longer on national team and really didn't deliver this season finishing near last place in her GP events.

I'd certainly like Tarakanova to get a spot, but maybe that could happen at the expense of Samodurova's/Vasilieva's 2nd spot. Tarakanova didn't perform neither in junior nor in senior Nationals and didn't get to JGPF so she is less likely to be considered than Gulyakova but can get a non host spot if RusFed pushes her during assignment process

I know that technically Guliakova could get get it, but Russia, unlike most countries, has enough skaters guaranteed spots to fill up all of their 18 spots, leaving them to not need to use the host spot. And even when they do use the host spot, like when they used it for Samodurova in 2018, it was given to a skater who already had a spot/was guaranteed a spot. So I'm just saying that Russia doesn't have a history of giving away the host spot to someone who's just done well in national competition. Its not like America and Canada where this happens because they don't have enough ladies to fill the maximum number of spots. But in a country with enough ladies in or super near the top 24 SB/WS, there's no reason to have a host spot chosen by national results. My point of bringing up Sotskova and Sakhanovich was to show that in the selection of GP spots, international results are favored over national results and national teams. So even though Tarakanova and Konstantinova had worse results nationally, they are still ahead in the factors that have historically been used to select GP spots for Russia, host spot or not host spot. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and anything can happen, but I just don't think it will happen (unless not everyone takes part in the GP thats expected to, like if Zagitova decides not to come back then the situation will be very interesting).

 

[KOBOT37]

Konstantinova definitely isn't getting a GP spot.

It's highly likely for the Russian Cup winner to get a spot, overwise chances are no one will show up for next edition and RusFed probably doesn't want that.

 

[Edwin]

Channel One resumes the training at home efforts of various athletes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGxGE5w75lY , with Alyona Kostornaya, Anna Shcherbakova and comments by Aleksey Mishin and Tat'yana Tarasova.