2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Pantsu]

Well if you ask for my personal direct opinion i think this is bad for both athletes and sport, but extremely effective. Like i said, the results are undeniable, what these skaters achieved, is all deserved. The coaching work is commendable.

But how can you base a figure skating career on only 1 season in seniors as many of these girls do? These people base their entire lives on that. Not only that cause the group is so big now, there are dozens and dozens of skaters that don't even have the chance to even debut in juniors, they get trashed earlier, if they can't train at that intensity despite being so young and show result in a matter of weeks. How many other Polina Shuboderova are out there you don't even know? Obviously you can ask the same for other rinks and that's a fair question.

Medo had 3 seasons under Eteri and she is still competing, Zagi had 2 and a half and it looks like she is coming back next season. I have no information that 3A are going to retire any time soon

For what then? These quads are not even done with the proper take off, often wrong edge and massive prerotation. You're forcing a bad but consistent technique that won't even last. Artistically don't improve much over the years, they never build a range because the career is extremely short and they all have a very similar packaging.

Anna is the only one with a questionable edge on her Lz and still you might call it unclear, not wrong. Vast majority of skaters prerotate their triples, nobody cares
The artistic part is hilarious. Medo, Zagi, Alyona, Anna, Kamila, Daria, Maya, Adeliya. Eteri girls are the most artistic in the world, there is no debate on that

The general consensus is almost all praise: russian media love Eteri, Ted Barton has been ISU ambassador for Eteri skaters, she obviously has millions of fans because of the results they deservedly won.

I just want to add that she also has millions of haters, even in Russia

 

[flanker]

Well if you ask for my personal direct opinion i think this is bad for both athletes and sport, but extremely effective. Like i said, the results are undeniable, what these skaters achieved, is all deserved. The coaching work is commendable.

But how can you base a figure skating career on only 1 season in seniors as many of these girls do? These people base their entire lives on that. Not only that cause the group is so big now, there are dozens and dozens of skaters that don't even have the chance to even debut in juniors, they get trashed earlier, if they can't train at that intensity despite being so young and show result in a matter of weeks. How many other Polina Shuboderova are out there you don't even know? Obviously you can ask the same for other rinks and that's a fair question.

How healthy is to push a 40 kg teenager over the limits, not eating, hiding injuries but still doing quads when quads are already dangerous for grown up men with a far more developed and muscular body. This without mentioning the mental aspect of dealing that level of training, with that intensity at the age of 10-15.

Figure skating should make athletes stronger, not weaker or even worse, ruined. The funny part is that you all think Eteri is the victim here.

For what then? These quads are not even done with the proper take off, often wrong edge and massive prerotation. You're forcing a bad but consistent technique that won't even last. Artistically don't improve much over the years, they never build a range because the career is extremely short and they all have a very similar packaging.

Is that pushing the sport forward? i don't think so.

There are many red flags we all (ISU included) just look the other way and pretend they don't exist but they do.

Apart from what Pantsu has replied (with which I completely agree) to he bold part: How many skaters are there all over the world whose career, promising at the beginning, goes nowhere. Just yesterday I've watched first Alina's international medal ceremony. Look who is on the thid place, japanese girl Rin Nitaya. Third place on JGP can promise interesting results in the future, but I doubt many people heard about her in the following years. She is somehow still competing but the results aren't precisely astounding, obviously worse than anything than makes Eteri's skaters "done". On the second place there is Kaori Sakamoto and as I've already pointed out recently, while there are plenty of vultures calling Alina being "done", her worst results the last season are still better than the best results of Kaori the same season. Is she done or this stupid line can be expressed only in connection with Eteri's skater?

There are plenty of skaters everywhere who were once promising and then they didn't fulfill the hopes everywhere. Many of them were seen during the last GP series, Karen Chen, Mako Yamashita, in fact all current canadian ladies and so on.

Again I remind Mishin's skaters. How long it took Liza to get back? More than three seasons. Sofia Samodurova was struggling more than any Eteri's skater last season, yet Mishin "teaches good technique". C'mon, deal with the fact that this happens all over the globe.

Pushing over the limists. Well, this is one of the funny things, again as if the health problems and injuries were exclusively problems of Eteri's team. Just look at the current european ladies, of those strongest outside Russia Viveca Lindfors, Loena Hendrickx and others are recovering for more than a season already from their injuries even when they have nothing to do with Eteri and they weren't "pushed over the limits" and didn't train quads at all. Many skaters outside of Eteri's team and outside of Russia generally have problems with the eating disorders or mental health, but "that's not the cause". On the other hand people like you still push it only and exclusively on Eteri, even with the skaters with we have no information that they would have any problems of this kind. I'm also curious if it will be called "pushing over the limits" when other teams would teach quads (in fact they are doing it already, though not with the same success).

Though we can obviously talk the same all over and over again. Nothing of what you said or what I said is new here, I truly don't see a point in keeping pushing this discussion.

 

[flanker]

Can’t we just agree to disagree on our opinions of Eteri. :sarcasm:

Who do you guys think will get invited to test skates this year? Will it be the main national team or will they invite the reserve team this year too? This can be for both junior and senior skaters. This is also assuming test skates will still happen.

Several days ago I've made an attempt to end this spoiling discussion even with an apology to the opponents, but it is useless, when there is zero willingness to end this on the other side.

 

[nussnacker]

How many usually get invited? LAst year I remember 9 with Tarusina pulling out, and 8 for seniors.

Junior:
Kamila Valieva, 14, Eteri
Daria Usacheva, 14, ETeri
Maya KHromykh, 14, Eteri
Anna Frolova, 15, Davydov
Sofia Muravoyva, 14, Eteri
Adelya Petrosyan, 14, Eteri
Sofia Samodelkina, 14, Davydov
Elizaveta Osokina, 13, Buianova
Idk who else, Berestovskaya, Akatieva, Gorbacheva, and Zhilina are all too young. Perhaps Varvara Kisel with her 3A and 4S, though she missed jr nationals.


Seniors:
Aleksandra Trusova, 16, Plushenko
Alena Kostornaia, 17, Eteri
Anna Shcherbakova, 16, Eteri
Evgenia Medvedeva, 20, Orser
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, 23, Mishin
Alina Zagitova, 18, Eteri
Ksenia Sinitsyna, 16, Panova
Anastasia Guliakova, 18, Mishin
SOfia Samodurova, 17, Mishin

I know Samodurova and Guliakova are ahead of Sinitsyna on the national team list, but I think Ksenia should be ahead of them both. I love Guliakova and I'm so hyped to see her on the Grand Prix, but either her or Sofia are probably going to stay home from test skates sadly.

I wonder why Guliakova didn’t get any competitions to get SB? It would’ve made things easier for her when it comes to getting GP spots. I think Liza and Sofia got 2-3 each, and I’m pretty sure Liza does around the same amount every year for WS points. Why did Mishin/people from Rusfed did not get one for Nastia, I wonder? Would’ve been a better way of using these available spots for girls who don’t have SBs.

 

[Alex65]

..........


I just want to add that she also has millions of haters, even in Russia

Judging by the number of participants in the most famous groups focused on FS on social networks in Russia, as well as taking into account the number of spectators during online broadcasts of the competitions, the number of active fans amounts to several tens of thousands. Without a doubt, the popularity of the FS in Russia has been growing rapidly in recent years, but still it is very far from football or hockey. If anyone has other exact numbers, I will be grateful if you correct me.
I do not take into account the number of views of 1TV on the air, because there are some random viewers whose exact share is impossible to determine.

 

[JazzUp]

bla bla bla

So you do not have any actual facts, as I suspected. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[zounger]

Test skates, if they will take place at all, most likely will be in closed form in Novogorsk. Assuming that rinks will open the second half of June until September there is significant time to reach your desired form under normal circumstances, considering that there are no shows to interrupt the training. But the 3 month time off ice adds uncertainty. Skaters who are training abroad may have better form during this period. As the season will go further those differences will be gradually closed. It can be a season where the Russian Cup stages can upgrade their status and regularly check the skaters readiness in case there will be limited international competitions.

 

[Fried]

? Uhm, she was fired after that interview with a misquote came out, wasn't she?

My question was sincere. I don't know the interview or the correction. So I asked for a link.

 

[Tolstoj]

Medo had 3 seasons under Eteri and she is still competing, Zagi had 2 and a half and it looks like she is coming back next season. I have no information that 3A are going to retire any time soon

According to the Cricket Club Medvedeva was asked to retire after the Olympics, the technique was regressing severely if you look at her jumps in 2018. So using Medvedeva as the prime example is questionable, she would have retired if she didn't leave. On Zagitova, we'll see when it happens, and when it happens i mean full seasonS not one Sotnikova-style comeback at Rostelelcom Cup and then 7th at Nationals and that's it.

We have enough cases now to be skeptical on all those "comebacks". Tutberidze already implied in past interviews that she doesn't aim at long lasting careers with her skaters.

Originally i thought this was a result of the coaches background, coming from novices and juniors, so they'd have learned over time what it is to train more mature skaters, but with these rules there is no point for them to change. So in the end it's not even their fault, they're playing by the rules. (which should change in my opinion)

Anna is the only one with a questionable edge on her Lz and still you might call it unclear, not wrong. Vast majority of skaters prerotate their triples, nobody cares

Besides Satoko and maybe Samodurova, no one prerotates their triples to this degree.
https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=2

The position on take-off is wrong, the edge also is wrong sometimes, not as wrong in the case of the video above and it is indeed underrotated. We have seen some response on ISU on this matter, still not enough in my opinion.

The artistic part is hilarious. Medo, Zagi, Alyona, Anna, Kamila, Daria, Maya, Adeliya. Eteri girls are the most artistic in the world, there is no debate on that

On the artistic part, if you believe that okay, that's is your opinion. For me what they have is:

- speed
- transitions
- elements well timed with the music.

(Medvedeva obviously considering her career up to Pyeongchang, since then we have seen improvements on posture and commitment).

But they lack the interpretation, performance, you want to OWN the music, not just skating through. Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, Zagitova are a bit more expressive than the others you mentioned, still nowhere near at the level of for example an Akiko Suzuki or a Satoko Miyahara.

Take Valieva: beautiful girl, very talented and flexible, her programs are difficult but done in a extremely robotic style, with no facial expression whatsoever. That's fine for juniors, but i would never call that "the most artistic in the world".

THIS is the level of steps sequence (in terms of range of movements, flow, commitment) i would want to see from the most artistic skater in the world.

https://youtu.be/TaEklpjUXFw?t=121
https://youtu.be/8Gw0EJQWCQk?t=263

This is what we got from the reigning World Champion Alina Zagitova

https://youtu.be/qICxeJipDLc?t=78
https://youtu.be/IuuSVbp1bm8?t=225

Not the most artistic in the world for me.

I understand that it takes years and years to reach that level, working with the best choreographers and ice dancers in the world, that's something i wish all Eteri students will have a chance to do at some point in the future, but probably they won't cause they all go for similar packaging, same choreographer, and retired in 2-3 years, they don't have time to work on that artistical range.

Have you seen the improvements on skating skills, flow, posture, Diana Davis she's making with Igor Shpilband and Pasquale Camerlengo? That's what i'd want to see from these other girls because they deserve better.

At the very least Daniil is showing some signs of improvements, cause in the past they used to give skaters the same exact style between short and the long, (classical for the short and classical for the long, piano music for the short and piano music for the long,...). This season at least they tried to go for contrast with the seniors, but the style of choreography is still a bit too formulaic.

It's like Figure Skating went from being a sophisticated restaurant to fast food. Both respectable in their own ways, but if we talk about quality there is no discussion here.

cut

I literally said in the sentence after that you could say the same for other rinks and that's true.

But the scale Eteri operates is so much bigger which means so many more ruined athletes, and yet i'd argue what Mishin did with Liza, waiting and fixing her issues should not be understated cause Eteri would have never given her all that time to recover and fix her problems.

Look at 2012 Tuktamysheva and 2020 Tuktamysheva, her body changed completely and so is the technique.

 

[nussnacker]

According to the Cricket Club Medvedeva was asked to retire after the Olympics

*According to TSL, not TCC. Another one of their rumors, which Medvedeva herself later refuted. TSL have proved many times to be an unreliable source of information.

Not to mention the talk Eteri and Medvedeva had after Olympic FS, when Medvedeva said “This was my maximum”, and Eteri replied “I disagree”. Doesn’t sound like “please retire” talk.

 

[Tolstoj]

*According to TSL, not TCC. Another one of their rumors, which Medvedeva herself later refuted. TSL have proved many times to be an unreliable source of information.

Not to mention the talk Eteri and Medvedeva had after Olympic FS, when Medvedeva said “This was my maximum”, and Eteri replied “I disagree”. Doesn’t sound like “please retire” talk.

Even if that wasn't true (can i have a link on where she said she refuted those rumors?):

1) There is still the fact we haven't seen any long lasting skater from this group, so she would have retired the season after, or the one after that. Basically as soon as she was out from the World team. This is my speculation of course, but based on the current trend. It's up to them to prove otherwise.

2) The technique was regressing and the issues were not being addressed. You understand why, if you look at the past 2 seasons she has had, reworking the axel technique which made it more inconsistent (but also a more accurate technique, with less prerotation, better body position from take off to landing)

 

[GINO]

Maybe this question was asked, but I wonder why a new thread has not been opened yet? The last few dozen pages are about the new season(test skates, Sasha's transfer to Plushenko, GP spots and so on...)

 

[nussnacker]

Even if that wasn't true (can i have a link on where she said she refuted those rumors?):

1) There is still the fact we haven't seen any long lasting skater from this group, so she would have retired the season after, or the one after that. Basically as soon as she was out from the World team. This is my speculation of course, but based on the current trend. It's up to them to prove otherwise.

2) The technique was regressing and the issues were not being addressed. You understand why, if you look at the past 2 seasons she has had, reworking the axel technique which made it more inconsistent (but also a more accurate technique, with less prerotation, better body position from take off to landing)

Here you are.
https://tass.ru/interviews/5583842
Her interview with TASS:

— Правда, что ваш бывший тренер Этери Тутберидзе советовала вам завершить карьеру?
- Об этом мы никогда, ни до, ни после Олимпиады не разговаривали, и я первый раз услышала об этом в сомнительном интервью.

- is it true that your ex-coach Eteri Tutberidze told you to finish your career(retire)?
- we have never talked about such thing, neither before, nor after the Olympics. And the first time I heard about it was that questionable interview.



The rest is up to debate. I believe the fact that she got injured played a big part in how her jumping looked in 17-18 season. It’s a big IF, what would’ve happened if she stayed. Everyone can have their own opinions about that, but those are just opinions.
Btw You said the same thing about technique not being addressed about Alina, and her 2A improved miles this season. Looked much better compared to last year, and on the axis!

 

[flanker]

Whole story.

So far you didn't provide a single supportive and above all correct evidence to your statements.

Like what should cause "investigation" in a democratic country (for your own consideration, some time ago one rhytmic gymnast here in my country blamed her former coach of the things that in comparison anything what Shuboderova said about Eteri is like a goodnight fairytale, and other sports have their scandals as well, like biathlon or ice hockey), yet no "investigation caused". Nobody ever investigated Karolyis in the US, so do not play this "evil country" card.

Or "Eteri would have never given her all that time to recover and fix her problems." So she didn't provide time for Anna or Evgenia after their injuries? C'mon, nothing more than your personal bias. The "scale" on what Eteri operates is the scale on which nearly every skater from her school achieves some recognition, that's the difference.

"Regressing" technique. If you are talking about Medvedeva, why do you think she has achieved her second highest score at the olympics (and we still should have in mind that the WTT is known for huge overscoring generally), is that mark of regression? I don't think so.

I get it, you have personal issues with Eteri, you presented them. You were unable to bear the burden of proof, instead of that you provided only inaccuracies (see nussnacker's comment), suggestions, personal issues or just purely untrue statements, still of course you have the right to think what you want, but it's enough with trying to persuade the whole forum about it. Why don't you crate a special thread "my personal problems with Eteri" (honestly I believe something like that probably exists already).

 

[Tolstoj]

Here you are.
https://tass.ru/interviews/5583842
Her interview with TASS:

— Правда, что ваш бывший тренер Этери Тутберидзе советовала вам завершить карьеру?
- Об этом мы никогда, ни до, ни после Олимпиады не разговаривали, и я первый раз услышала об этом в сомнительном интервью.

- is it true that your ex-coach Eteri Tutberidze told you to finish your career(retire)?
- we have never talked about such thing, neither before, nor after the Olympics. And the first time I heard about it was that questionable interview.



The rest is up to debate. I believe the fact that she got injured played a big part in how her jumping looked in 17-18 season. It’s a big IF, what would’ve happened if she stayed. Everyone can have their own opinions about that, but those are just opinions.
Btw You said the same thing about technique not being addressed about Alina, and her 2A improved miles this season. Looked much better compared to last year, and on the axis!

Thanks for posting the link, on the rest i said that's my opinion on that based on the precedents, their skaters retiring as soon as their goal is done and certain quotes from the coaches.

Agreed on the rest, it is true that they fixed Zagitova's axel, it is still not the greatest double axel to be honest in terms of height and distance but at least it is more stable. I still don't believe her comeback will be any longer than a season, 1.5, or even just a couple of competitions.

 

[Tolstoj]

So far you didn't provide a single supportive and above all correct evidence to your statements.

Like what should cause "investigation" in a democratic country (for your own consideration, some time ago one rhytmic gymnast here in my country blamed her former coach of the things that in comparison anything what Shuboderova said about Eteri is like a goodnight fairytale, and other sports have their scandals as well, like biathlon or ice hockey), yet no "investigation caused". Nobody ever investigated Karolyis in the US, so do not play this "evil country" card.

Or "Eteri would have never given her all that time to recover and fix her problems." So she didn't provide time for Anna or Evgenia after their injuries? C'mon, nothing more than your personal bias. The "scale" on what Eteri operates is the scale on which nearly every skater from her school achieves some recognition, that's the difference.

"Regressing" technique. If you are talking about Medvedeva, why do you think she has achieved her second highest score at the olympics (and we still should have in mind that the WTT is known for huge overscoring generally), is that mark of regression? I don't think so.

I get it, you have personal issues with Eteri, you presented them. You were unable to bear the burden of proof, instead of that you provided only inaccuracies (see nussnacker's comment), suggestions, personal issues or just purely untrue statements, still of course you have the right to think what you want, but it's enough with trying to persuade the whole forum about it. Why don't you crate a special thread "my personal problems with Eteri" (honestly I believe something like that probably exists already).

Both Anna and Evgenia were still in that prime time that team considers to be the time you still can recover and achieve medals. We'll see with Zagitova how long it will last and how much she will achieve.

The only fact here is that this team has never coached a single skater in seniors for 5 years or longer.

The rest are all opinions (mine as well), not trying to persuade anyone, just argument the issues i think this team brought to their own athletes and the sport in general, in terms of health, setting bad precedents by pushing a wrong but consistent technique, for the novelty of ladies quads or backloading or consistency... and again, made Figure Skating from a sophisticated restaurant to fast food.

 

[nussnacker]

Thanks for posting the link, on the rest i said that's my opinion on that based on the precedents, their skaters retiring as soon as their goal is done and certain quotes from the coaches.

Agreed on the rest, it is true that they fixed Zagitova's axel, it is still not the greatest double axel to be honest in terms of height and distance but at least it is more stable. I still don't believe her comeback will be any longer than a season, 1.5, or even just a couple of competitions.

I think there’s generally a higher level of expectations when it comes to Eteri and her students. Whether or not Alina continues, she had a better run than a lot of russian skaters.

I mean, look at Sotskova. She barely had 1 good senior season, it was up until Europeans and after that pretty much all of her performances were quite upsetting.
No one however picks apart her technique, her jumps, and stuff like that. No one even says that it’s because of Panova or Buyanova, although she had less time as a successful senior compared to Alina. And no one should do that!

There’s definitely a lot of pressure on all of those girls. From ever increasing competition, to pressure from media from a young age, to heavy weight of high expectations as athletes who represent Russia. A lot of girls in Russia have on average shorter careers due to that.
And there’s also a double standard.

 

[zounger]

Agreed on the rest, it is true that they fixed Zagitova's axel, it is still not the greatest double axel to be honest in terms of height and distance but at least it is more stable. I still don't believe her comeback will be any longer than a season, 1.5, or even just a couple of competitions.

Even If that jump is not her best, it was measured 0.41m in height at worlds FS. Mariah's was measured 0.42, Kaori's 0.41, Lilbet's around 0.40. So doesn't look so bad in height comparable. Even though those skaters have better axels than Alina. All of Alina's jumps improved in height during 2018-19 and last season. And it's normal you jump higher when you are 17 than when you are 15. What changes is the speed of rotation as your body changes.

 

[flanker]

Both Anna and Evgenia were still in that prime time that team considers to be the time you still can recover and achieve medals. We'll see with Zagitova how long it will last and how much she will achieve.

The only fact here is that this team has never coached a single skater in seniors for 5 years or longer.

The rest are all opinions (mine as well), not trying to persuade anyone, just argument the issues i think this team brought to their own athletes and the sport in general, in terms of health, pushing a wrong but consistent technique, for the novelty of ladies quads or backloading or consistency... and again, made Figure Skating from a sophisticated restaurant to fast food.

And Morisi?

In reality there are very few skaters all over the world who remain for such a long time with one team, esp. in ladies. Some time ago I even did some research about Orser and if I remember correctly when it came to ladies there was none who would remain more than three (or it was four? Definitely less than five) years with him. Only men remain longer with him.

Yes, those are your opinions and wishful thinkings. I like how some users are blamed that "they wish failing to Sasha", but in reality statements like " I still don't believe her comeback will be any longer than a season" are truly obvious wishful thinkings.

So, as for your opinions, you presented them, you didn't defend them succesfully (you never provided reliable arguemnt for them, everytime you asked your opponent for a proof you received it), yet you still keep pushing them here. You have the right for your opinions, I have my right to say those opinions have no validity.

 

[Mawwerg]

To be frank I have a feeling 5 years are probably near average duration of a senior skater career in ladies single.