2019 4CCs: Ladies' SP

[Mathman]

Kaori has a typical boring Japanese program and unpretentious choreography. First place no doubt for Tennell.

What a thing to say! :disagree: And by the way, "unpretentious" is a good thing.

pretentious: attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

 

[Interspectator]

Kaori's unpretentiousness is one of her BEST qualities.

 

[chopinskate]

Mathman already tackled the other one, and it's good: I can't be expected to not say something extremely awful in response.

Perhaps agree with you. But if superiority exists, it is very insignificant.



No it's not.

Better landings, less effort, better flow in and out, better power, harder transitions in and out (that outrunning edge out of the 2A is unbelievable, as are the turning threes into the 3Lo).


Better control on blades, better flow, better edging, far better step sequence. More natural performance ability.

 

[Orlov]

Better control on blades, better flow, better edging, far better step sequence. More natural performance ability.

There is one smaaaall problem with all the things that you listed here - these are all pretty subjective concepts You just add the word "better", and this is the foundation of your argumentation Do not like the word "unpretentious"? Okay, I’ll use the word “primitive” (I’m not very good at English, so I’ll use simple words that I’m sure of). Kaori has a primitive choreography. And this is objective (I mean, even a non-specialist can notice this). I firmly believe that it is impossible to demonstrate the presence of excellent skating skills if you have a primitive choreography.

 

[Interspectator]

There is one smaaaall problem with all the things that you listed here - these are all pretty subjective concepts You just add the word "better", and this is the foundation of your argumentation Do not like the word "unpretentious"? Okay, I’ll use the word “primitive” (I’m not very good at English, so I’ll use simple words that I’m sure of). Kaori has a primitive choreography. And this is objective. I firmly believe that it is impossible to demonstrate the presence of excellent skating skills if you have a primitive choreography.

Saying that you find choreography either unpretentious or primitive or boring are about the most subjective comments it's possible to make. To say that someone's assessment of skating skills is subjective but placing ones own opinion of choreography on an objective level shows some inconsistency in your argument, and cuts off any kind of meaningful discussion.

 

[chopinskate]

these are all pretty subjective concepts ... Kaori has a primitive choreography. And this is objective

Flow, control, edging, and edge quality in step sequence (which is where skating quality would figure in) aren't subjective. SS are a technical aspect of skating.

"Objectively" Sakamoto had better defined skating skills and transitions in her "primitive" choreography.

 

[readernick]

Kaori has a typical boring Japanese program and unpretentious choreography. First place no doubt for Tennell.

There is one smaaaall problem with all the things that you listed here - these are all pretty subjective concepts You just add the word "better", and this is the foundation of your argumentation Do not like the word "unpretentious"? Okay, I’ll use the word “primitive” (I’m not very good at English, so I’ll use simple words that I’m sure of). Kaori has a primitive choreography. And this is objective. I firmly believe that it is impossible to demonstrate the presence of excellent sliding skills if you have a primitive choreography.

Your comments are very biased and come across as very rude. You may like a certain style of choreography but it is quite narrow minded to include all skaters in one country in the same group when there are vast differences in choreography. Kaori’s sp ( which I don’t necessarily like- I don’t like Benoit’s choreo very often although Bradie’s short is better) is completely different tham Satoko’s sp which is full of difficult transitional content. Which is completely different than Wakaba Higuchi’s long and short. Which is very different from Rika’s lp. All have very different styles of choreography.

In fact, Kaori and Bradie use the same choreographer. So, they are the ones who should have similar choreo not Kaori and the other Japanese ladies.

The word “primitive” is a terrible word choice in English. I suggest your don’t use it again unless you want to have a huge number of angry fans responding to you. “Simple” would be a better choice. It is true that it is easier to achieve flow with less transistions. However, Mishin’s skaters have “simple” choreography and far less transistions than Kaori and none have anything close to her flow or glide.( I love Liza and Sofia but I am not blind) I don’t even like Kaori that much but I can see her SS are exceptional. Her knee bend is perhaps the best in the ladies field( with Alena K., Kostner and Satoko). You can argue about the other PCS marks but her SS are superior.

 

[malya]

I... don't think Kaori has the typical generic japanese ladies SP this season, it highlights her strenghts very well.

Mai has more of a generic program, but she has had the same packaging in all her programs for years... It works for her and she makes the best of it.

Imho Rika's SP is the one that is underwhelming. Even if she hits her 3A it does nothing for me. Compare it to her amazing FS and really she can show sooo much more than this bland choreography... I'm hoping for next season

 

[zounger]

SS and TR (mostly the quality part) I would give it to Kaori easily (probably the best lady this season, even if she didn't deliver so far internationally). The other marks of PCS, IN,PE,CO, I would give them to Brandie. She also had a +1 point in BV compared to Kaori and didn't ruined her final spin. Kaori lost there 0.5 points. So if she had a similar layout with no mistake on final spin, she could have scored 2-2.5 points more than Bradie and maybe got a little bit bonus on PCS as well.

I don't see any particular atrocity in the scoring.

 

[Orlov]

Saying that you find choreography either unpretentious or primitive or boring are about the most subjective comments it's possible to make. To say that someone's assessment of skating skills is subjective but placing ones own opinion of choreography on an objective level shows some inconsistency in your argument, and cuts off any kind of meaningful discussion.

You're right about terminology. I have poor knowledge of English. My point of view was that there are things in which it is difficult to reliably figure out an amateur (us ) and in which a experts council is needed (And I called that things "subjective" in the last post). And there are things that are easy to identify, even for amateurs and non-professionals. For example, it's quality and complexity of the choreography (and I called it "objective" in the last post)

 

[Orlov]

Your comments are very biased and come across as very rude. You may like a certain style of choreography but it is quite narrow minded to include all skaters in one country in the same group when there are vast differences in choreography. Kaori’s sp ( which I don’t necessarily like- I don’t like Benoit’s choreo very often although Bradie’s short is better) is completely different tham Satoko’s sp which is full of difficult transitional content. Which is completely different than Wakaba Higuchi’s long and short. Which is very different from Rika’s lp. All have very different styles of choreography.

First, it's true - Wakaba Higuchi are out of the general row. I did not say "all Japanese programs." I said "typical Japanese programs". Second, I can not be biased - I do not have any national interests, I watch 4CC only from sports interest.

The word “primitive” is a terrible word choice in English. I suggest your don’t use it again unless you want to have a huge number of angry fans responding to you. “Simple” would be a better choice.

Okey, let it be "simple choreography".

It is true that it is easier to achieve flow with less transistions. However, Mishin’s skaters have “simple” choreography and far less transistions than Kaori and none have anything close to her flow or glide.( I love Liza and Sofia but I am not blind)

I fully agree with you - choreography in Alexei Nikolayevich’s group can certainly be called “primitive” (I hope, at least here you will not grumble? )

I don’t even like Kaori that much but I can see her SS are exceptional. Her knee bend is perhaps the best in the ladies field( with Alena K., Kostner and Satoko). You can argue about the other PCS marks but her SS are superior.

And I will repeat my fundamental position again - it is impossible (or almost impossible) to show excellent skating skills with simple choreography. There is too much to say here to clarify my point, but my English is bad, so I will not do it. I hope you understand my point.

P.S. From the fact that skaters have the same choreographer, it does not at all follow that they should have a similar and same choreography in terms of quality/complexity.

 

[Danny T]

So I finally caught up to the ladies' SP. In summary, maybe skating gods were on to something when they made this event happen at 4am and didn't let me watch it live ...

Main contenders' thoughts: I really enjoyed the Korean ladies' skating, save for Hanul's rough skate. Eunsoo in particular was lovely, and had great spring on her jumps as always. Bad day for bb Rika Not to say that her 3A in the short is consistent at all, but considering the sprained(?) fingers, it's not surprising she didn't have the greatest time (JWorld war flashback for me though ....). Mai :'( I know her sickness made things difficult for her to practice, but I hope next season she can explore different programmes from the usual princess-y types. It does suit her best so far, but I thought the tango last season was not bad, though judges never appreciated it. Not sure why I can't get into Ting, but she did a great job. Mariah certainly benefited from the lenient tech panel but I like her energy today - might be the most I've seen her selling this programme.

Kaori was phenomenal. And robbed. Not because I think she should score any higher, but because judges went overboard with Bradie. TES-wise, I thought their scores were fair. Kaori deservedly had higher GOEs for her jumps, steps, while Bradie really excels with the spin, even if we don't count Kaori flubbing that last spin. PCS-wise, Bradie shouldn't even score anywhere close to Kaori. I think many have touched on this before, but well, I'll just repeat it: Kaori has superior speed (she really is the fastest skater here!), vastly superior knee bend and rhythm, more complex multidirectional skating, better flow and superior edge work. In short, I think her SS deserves at least a full point more than Bradie, whose knees are quite painful to look at, who lost so much speed during the steps and turns in the StSq, not to mention had shallow to outright flat edges. Both Kaori and Bradie have interesting transitions, but Kaori still deserves a lead here based on better quality. As for PE/IN/CO, I do understand if others think Kaori's music boring. I like Bradie's music choice more, too. And Kaori does have weakness in her upper body; at points her shoulders can look awkward. But Bradie's posture is even worse IMO. Bradie's really giving Alina a run for her money on the worst hunched-over look. Kaori also had better ice coverage from what I saw and what I heard from my friends at the comp. At worst, both of them are tied in this area, which makes PCS leaning much more heavily towards Kaori, and not a fake 0.06 points.

Other random thoughts:

- Probs said this before, but I love Kailani's dress. @ Vera Wang, this is how you put snakes on costume
- @ the camera operator who focused on the 4CC sign during Lim's spin, thank you sooo much, I'm totally forgetting I'm watching 4 Continents :sarcasm:
- I heard announcing is a volunteer position, but there's no excuse for it to be this bad, unknown lady
- Canadian ladies have quite nice SS (sky is blue etc.), too bad about jumps
- I like the KnC, a bit tacky with the multicolour look, but that gives it a cheerful feel!
- Audience seems muted? But the plushies are high quality

 

[gonewiththewind25]

I have to be honest, I was quite underwhelmed by Rika again... I'm really struggling to see the qualities everyone sees in her.
Irrespective, I hope she can bounce back in the Free and land her 3As.

 

[Rissa]

What a thing to say! :disagree: And by the way, "unpretentious" is a good thing.

Lol, I agree with Orlov. In terms of being interesting Bradie was actually miles ahead everyone, and that's even though she's not as good an interpreter as some other girls. The problem is that Kaori got some really boring crap to interpret, and the stale David Wilson choreography didn't help.

Although Mai Mihara's SP was even worse, that teeth-rotting mediocre fluff was barely watchable. And Rika Kihira's was a snooze too. Actually out of the three of them Sakamoto got the best deal, but that bar wasn't exactly high. I can't believe people still go to David Wilson for choreo, the only decent programs he's in recent years were his SPs for Cha and Chaplin for Fernandez. [ / rant]

 

[Shanshani]

Just popping in to say that Kaori is the queen of running edges. Seriously, I can’t think of anyone who has better outflow than her.

 

[Rissa]

Just popping in to say that Kaori is the queen of running edges. Seriously, I can’t think of anyone who has better outflow than her.

Choreo aside, that is true. Those jumps are like gifts from heaven.

 

[Tolstoj]

There was a bit of home inflation, at the same time i also agree that Sakamoto needs to find her own voice, and this SP is not helping her much, i think the FS is a much better veichle for her.

Overall good SP event, most skaters did well, and the battle for all the podium is still open.

 

[Shanshani]

Re: choreo, I would say that the Japanese ladies elevate their choreo, whereas the choreo does not do much to help them in turn. I found Rika’s SP magical at GPF—but largely because Rika herself was magical, not because the choreo itself is particularly good. I think Rika, Kaori, and Mai could all benefit from better packaging as well, especially Mai, because as it stands I think it’s a bit hard for her to stand out in a crowded Japanese field.

 

[evasorange]

I was there yesterday! The arena is SO COLD. I saw some comments about low energy audience and I definitely think that contributed to it. It was a fun competition tho! Mariah was my highlight. She radiates JOY out there on the ice in a way that very few skaters man or woman does. She was absolutely robbed in pcs. But I suspect they had to hold her down a bit in case Bradie made mistakes. This was my third time seeing Bradie and as always I’m puzzled why us wants to push her as the top lady when Mariah is right there. Can’t use the consistency argument anymore as Bradie has made mistakes at basically every competition this year. Bradies jumps aren’t bad but her step sequence had to be the slowest of that final group. I would have definitely put Kaori over her. She was so good! Her jumps have very little telegraphing and are so smooth. Tbh I was expecting to come away super impressed by Rika but she was just fine? Maybe popping the axel like that got to her but she just wasn’t that memorable. 3rd highest PCS is generous imo

 

[yelyoh]

Homecourt inflation did not help Mariah. Her PCS should have been higher.