2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[Baron Vladimir]

ONE judge gave 2 and obviously they didn't see the UR or the slight step out. Not that it matters.
It was still 3T< there is no downgrade to be seen, no matter which way you spin it.

I'm not spinning anything, i'm proving to you that judges didn't screw with Bradie's score in any way. And trying to teach you how the judging works: when jump is called as UR, panel of judges is going further down in their GOE. Even < call can do more harm than a double jump, because of the GOE points. Because score for the jump is made of BV + GOE (% of the BV). And that's it.

 

[Mishaminion]

I'm not spinning anything, i'm proving to you that judges didn't screw with Bradie's score in any way. And trying to teach you how the judging work. Even < call can do more harm than a double jump, because of the GOE points. And that's it.

The judges did not screw with her score. That's not even what happened.
She was scored for 3< with bad landing by (most of) the judges and the tech panel called the UR. But in the system it was input as 2T, not 3T<

A poster in the US ladies thread posted this

See the ISU Constitution & General Regulations, rule 123, 4.A.

You can download the document here:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/rules...ions-technical

Basically, for this kind of error, any protest by the skater/coach/team leader would need to be made before the medal ceremony; otherwise the initial call stands.

There was not much time to bring the error to attention, thus why it was not changed.

 

[ancientpeas]

I'm not spinning anything, i'm proving to you that judges didn't screw with Bradie's score in any way. And trying to teach you how the judging work: when jump is called as UR, panel of judges is going further down in their GOE. Even < call can do more harm than a double jump, because of the GOE points. Because score for the jump is made of BV + GOE (% of the BV). And that's it.

This is like when.. I don't remember who it was got a minus 5 and I was outraged and someone explained it was a edge call plus a two footed landing? They actually might have gotten less of a deduction for falling. (Sorry I can't remember who it was now.. I'd have to go back and look.. Skate Canada maybe or Skate America.

It is odd though when you see what is a okay looking double toe (happens a lot in pairs) and it still gets a negative goe. Surely if it's an okay double toe it should get at least a small plus GOE. Or am I just not understanding how it works?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The judges did not screw with her score. That's not even what happened.
She was scored for 3< with bad landing by (most of) the judges and the tech panel called the UR. But in the system it was input as 2T, not 3T<
.

How she was scored for 3T< by the panel of judges when they had 2T in the protocols? If they had < sign in their system the GOE for the combo would be lower. If you can't understand that, i can't help you.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This is like when.. I don't remember who it was got a minus 5 and I was outraged and someone explained it was a edge call plus a two footed landing? They actually might have gotten less of a deduction for falling. (Sorry I can't remember who it was now.. I'd have to go back and look.. Skate Canada maybe or Skate America.

It is odd though when you see what is a okay looking double toe (happens a lot in pairs) and it still gets a negative goe. Surely if it's an okay double toe it should get at least a small plus GOE. Or am I just not understanding how it works?

If element has multiple mistakes it can get -5 according to the recommendations, so with Bradie jump called as UR in the system, judges may easily go to -5 in GOE with it, cause it already had bad timing (which is very important for a combo), bad take off and the landing. If a skater planned a triple and did a double, it is judged as a jump with a mistake basically. And double jumps as single elements are rarely looking that good to get high GOE, because they don't have height and distance as triple jumps for example (unless its a double with delayed rotation).

 

[Makemi]

topic: Bradie's Skate America protocol was discussed ad nauseam across multiple threads. I really don't know why people have decided to return to this, Bradie's not even Russian, but for the sake of setting the record straight (because I hate misinformation), entering the -2T WAS a mistake by the tech panel. Lynn Rutherford (US journalist who often covers figure skating events) explained in this article for NBC following Skate America (well the article mentions the 3A in the beginning so I suppose it's not totally irrelevant):
https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/10/22/nathan-chen-anna-shcherbakova-skate-america-figure-skating/

Per ISU rules, an appeal is not permitted except in the case of an incorrect mathematical calculation; wrong identification of an element does not qualify. The rules do allow for a correction to be made, however, when an element misidentification is brought to the referee’s attention prior to the award ceremony. A spokesman for U.S. Figure Skating said that the organization did go to the ISU prior to the award ceremony, and was only told that an appeal was not permitted. No correction was made and Tennell’s score stood.

An ISU technical specialist, who consented to be interviewed about procedures, explained.

“Technical specialists call (identify) elements, which data entry operators enter into the judging system,” the technical specialist said. “At the end of the program, the data entry operator reads the list of elements, and the technical controller and assistant technical controller review the list for accuracy. Somehow, the error escaped notice.”

“Things like this should not happen,” Denise Myers, Tennell’s coach, relayed via text. “This is only the second time in my career (an error like this) happened.”

“I will say, every time something unusual happens, the ISU reviews the procedure and asks, ‘How can we prevent it from happening again?’” the technical specialist said. “This time, it was caught too late. If it had been caught before the ceremony started, it could have been changed … but human beings are not machines.”

The 3Lz-2T was clearly a mistake, it was acknowledged by the panel as such but complicated ISU rules prevented it from being corrected. And this is all I will say on the subject.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The 3Lz-2T was clearly a mistake, it was acknowledged by the panel as such but complicated ISU rules prevented it from being corrected. And this is all I will say on the subject.

Of course it was a mistake. But that doesn't mean her final score would be necessarily higher otherway, for the reasons i stated above. If it was cleanly done 3T called as 2T, that would be problematic.

 

[Grin]

Pack of pics and gifs with 'clean edges'(according to protocols)
https://www.another site.com/r/Figu...1d68255a64&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=duad0e

So I don't think that panels of judges at GP events were strict to everybody. It looks like Eteri skaters got special attention.

 

[Azikin]

Pack of pics and gifs with 'clean edges'(according to protocols)
https://www.another site.com/r/Figu...1d68255a64&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=duad0e

So I don't think that panels of judges at GP events were strict to everybody. It looks like Eteri skaters got special attention.

From the comments:
"There were just 10 edge/unclear calls in total in FS. Anna got 4 of them -- 40% of the grand total. The rest was received by the ladies standing at 8th, 10th, and 12th place. In SP there were 3 unclear calls in total -- ladies standing on 12th, 10th and 1st place. 33% for Anna."

 

[Pantsu]

Pack of pics and gifs with 'clean edges'(according to protocols)
https://www.another site.com/r/Figu...1d68255a64&utm_source=embedly&utm_term=duad0e

So I don't think that panels of judges at GP events were strict to everybody. It looks like Eteri skaters got special attention.

On most of them you can't clearly see the edge. Anna got 0 calls at SA, Sakamoto got e on her Lutz at SA and IdF. And Kaori doesn't really try to push her Lutz, she jumps it once per competition.
The problem with Lz edges exists for Anna and Alina, i see no reason to deny the obvious. I think it is a good thing they are actually getting called on that. It is much better to have a clean victory. One could say that Eteri skaters or Russians in general (see Medo-chan) received unfair advantage for not being called on their flaws. And personally i don't want that

 

[moriel]

On most of them you can't clearly see the edge. Anna got 0 calls at SA, Sakamoto got e on her Lutz at SA and IdF. And Kaori doesn't really try to push her Lutz, she jumps it once per competition.
The problem with Lz edges exists for Anna and Alina, i see no reason to deny the obvious. I think it is a good thing they are actually getting called on that. It is much better to have a clean victory. One could say that Eteri skaters or Russians in general (see Medo-chan) received unfair advantage for not being called on their flaws. And personally i don't want that

Its kind of obvious Alina's edges are good, in fact above the field average. In worst cases, you could call it flat *sometimes*.
If she gets called, most ladies should be called.

As for unfair advantage to Russians, see many non Russian skaters with clear flutzes not getting calls at all (Osmond for example). If you wanted to say that, that would be quite a bit of russian-bashing.

 

[Mathman]

OMG! Love this video: https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw

I don't.

Boyang Jin jumps higher than Anna Shcherbakova. Duh.

 

[Alex65]

OMG! Love this video: https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw

I hate doing it, it's disgusting, but you force me: let's compare with Lipnitskaya: https://youtu.be/MhvmZ-ZMy_w?t=248
Who are you trying to belittle?

 

[Mathman]

I hate doing it, it's disgusting, but you force me: let's compare with Lipnitskaya: https://youtu.be/MhvmZ-ZMy_w?t=248

I don't know about Yulia, but the Empress has got her attitude DOWN!

 

[Pantsu]

Its kind of obvious Alina's edges are good, in fact above the field average. In worst cases, you could call it flat *sometimes*.
If she gets called, most ladies should be called.

I agree actually, i rewatched some of her perfomances and she is quite good. I thought that i've seen her going slightly inside last year, but i'm not sure now. Therefore i had the impression of her unstable edge
The one in the short looked slightly outside to me, although i see how it could be called flat. Have to find her videos from other camera angles of her fs

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

OMG! Love this video: https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw

The maker of that video is pretty biased, comparing the quad of a senior man and a just turned senior lady. "Full blade" takeoff on Anna's? Um, no.

Any suggestion that a lutz which uses some of the front part of the blade is poor technique is correct. Any suggestion that it makes it somehow a loop or a "different jump" is not correct.

 

[jenaj]

I don't.

Boyang Jin jumps higher than Anna Shcherbakova. Duh.

I don’t love it, either. Some people have too much time on their hands.

 

[Mishaminion]

Its kind of obvious Alina's edges are good, in fact above the field average. In worst cases, you could call it flat *sometimes*.
If she gets called, most ladies should be called.

As for unfair advantage to Russians, see many non Russian skaters with clear flutzes not getting calls at all (Osmond for example). If you wanted to say that, that would be quite a bit of russian-bashing.

Osmond is not even competing this season or last season even..wth even is this argument?

How about Zhenya's flutz being ignored for years?

She is Russian isn't she?

 

[readernick]

The maker of that video is pretty biased, comparing the quad of a senior man and a just turned senior lady. "Full blade" takeoff on Anna's? Um, no.

Any suggestion that a lutz which uses some of the front part of the blade is poor technique is correct. Any suggestion that it makes it somehow a loop or a "different jump" is not correct.

True, it definitely isn't a loop. Just less than ideal technique on the lutz which many skaters both and female use.. It does, however, clearly show how flat her edge is when she picks in... so perhaps it can be used as good evidence of correct calling of the technical panel. The 4Lz is !.

 

[ancientpeas]

Oh Lord.. the ghost of Osmond has appeared once again in the Russian ladies thread! What next Elizabeth Manley? Tenley Albright? Janet Lynn?

If we are going to harp on skaters can they please not be skaters who are not only not Russian but also retired.