2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[Elucidus]

That's an inside/flat edge to me, and it still looks under.

https://ibb.co/6tXWDN9
Seriously?
As for edge - top down view is still isn't appropriate to determine it IMO - but let's agree with flat for argument's sake. First, penalty for it is much less than UR, second - I don't care about edge here, I care about FALSE call. Missing something else does not and should not justify it.

 

[Mishaminion]

https://ibb.co/6tXWDN9
Seriously?
As for edge - top down view is still isn't appropriate to determine it IMO - but let's agree with flat for argument's sake. First, penalty for it is much less than UR, second - I don't care about edge here, I care about FALSE call. Missing something else does not and should not justify it.

This is hypocrisy.

If her edge was flat and not called then where is your outrage and demand for justification on that?

 

[Elucidus]

Here is even better way to show falsity of a call for especially blind ones - I zoomed the landing place to 300% and reversed colors there in "Microsoft paint" to make landing trace more noticeable. Pay attention to black curve on ice - it shows where and at what angle the blade touched the ice and landed.
https://ibb.co/m53z7KJ - original zoomed picture
https://ibb.co/S5mBXYV - zoomed picture with reversed colors
Red arrow shows direction of a jump.There isn't any "commas" on the ice - only smooth arc of exit in direction of a jump (i.e. landing was almost backwards - marks on ice can't deceive).

This is hypocrisy.

If her edge was flat and not called then where is your outrage and demand for justification on that?

As I said above - I hate false calls first and foremost. Everything else is insignicant in light of such judging abomination. That, and without frontal/rear view of an edge I don't feel enough confidence to make strong statements. With "UR", on other hand, I have 200% proof which don't let place for doubt.

 

[Mishaminion]

Analysis of edge too?

 

[Mishaminion]

Here is even better way to show falsity of a call for especially blind ones - I zoomed the landing place to 300% and reversed colors there in "Microsoft paint" to make landing trace more noticeable. Pay attention to black curve on ice - it shows where and at what angle the blade touched the ice and landed.
https://ibb.co/m53z7KJ - original zoomed picture
https://ibb.co/S5mBXYV - zoomed picture with reversed colors
Red arrow shows direction of a jump.


As I said above - I hate false calls first and foremost. Everything else is insignicant in light of such judging abomination. That, and without frontal/rear view of an edge I don't feel enough confidence to make strong statements. With "UR", on other hand, I have 200% proof which don't let place for doubt.

You don't, you have your opinion.

Others have a different one.

Look, I love Anna and am happy she got silver here she deserved it.

But this is kind of silly...there is doubt because not everyone agrees with you.

Anna won the free skate with a SB, what abomination are you talking about?
They got the placements in the ladies EXACTLY RIGHT.

 

[Fluture]

As I said above - I hate false calls first and foremost. Everything else is insignicant in light of such judging abomination. That, and without frontal/rear view of an edge I don't feel enough confidence to make strong statements. With "UR", on other hand, I have 200% proof which don't let place for doubt.

That sure is one convenient way to put it.

Calling an edge clean when it isn‘t, is also a false call. Your definition‘s off but it‘s remarkable how you manage to twist things to fit them to your narrative. At least we‘re consistent with that - not one event where there‘s no complaining from you about the judging. I‘ll give you that, you‘re hilariously dedicated. Cheers! I‘m happy for Anna. She skated well. But that lutz was UR and she was mighty lucky she wasn‘t called for the edge as well. Enjoy your success, three Russians on top of the podium. Something to celebrate, I‘d have thought, but apparently not. Figures.

 

[Elucidus]

That sure is one convenient way to put it.

Calling an edge clean when it isn‘t, is also a false call.

No, it isn't. For example do not noticing someone's crimes and falsely accusing someone with counterfeited evidence are so vastly different conceptions with so vastly different degrees of fault and outcomes that I don't even know where to begin Returning to sport example - simply put in one case you just helping someone with not so good performance to keep what he already did albeit poorly; in other - you are destroying what someone is already deserved and put his work into. Are they vastly different notions? Without doubt - they are.

Your definition‘s off but it‘s remarkable how you manage to twist things to fit them to your narrative. At least we‘re consistent with that - not one event where there‘s no complaining from you about the judging. I‘ll give you that, you‘re hilariously dedicated. Cheers! I‘m happy for Anna. She skated well. But that lutz was UR and she was mighty lucky she wasn‘t called for the edge as well. Enjoy your success, three Russians on top of the podium. Something to celebrate, I‘d have thought, but apparently not. Figures.

There isn't any "commas" on the ice - only smooth arc of exit in direction of a jump (i.e. landing was almost backwards - marks on ice can't deceive).
I suppose you don't even bother to see my pics - and/or you just don't care whether I am right or not. Well, to each his own

 

[Colonel Green]

No, it isn't. For example do not noticing someone's crimes and falsely accusing someone with counterfeited evidence are so vastly different conceptions with so vastly different degrees of fault and outcomes that I don't even know where to begin

Firstly, you're ascribing malice to any call you don't agree with, which is inherently nonsensical. Differences of opinion are not "counterfeited evidence".

Secondly, missing or ignoring mistakes equally affects the sport by disadvantaging the other skaters. Every skater who has a correct edge on a particular jump is unfairly disadvantaged when other skaters get away with doing the jump with an incorrect edge, same with those who rotate their jumps versus those who don't, and so on.

 

[Amei]

Was she given a ! for any of her lutzes?

No, all of Anna's Lutz edges were called clean; I believe there wasn't a single edge call for the competition for senior ladies

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I really hope that prerotation will be judged fairly in the future. I also hope that the reviewing of each elements in slow motion should become compulsory. I really do. There is a big difference between a quad lutz with 40 degrees of prerotation and quad lutz with 270 degrees of prerotation. Right? Right!

 

[lzxnl]

I really hope that prerotation will be judged fairly in the future. I also hope that the reviewing of each elements in slow motion should become compulsory. I really do. There is a big difference between a quad lutz with 40 degrees of prerotation and quad lutz with 270 degrees of prerotation. Right? Right!

Why is Yuzuru getting similar lutz GOEs to Scherbakova anyway?

 

[Elucidus]

There is a big difference between a quad lutz with 40 degrees of prerotation and quad lutz with 270 degrees of prerotation. Right? Right!

In real time? Nah, there isn't. What differs various lutzes between each other in eyes of common spectator is their height, distance and landing. And that is what should be reflected in scores first and foremost. Incomprehensible scores fluctuations due to invisible jump technicalities having zero impact on overall performance impressions isn't what is gonna increase fs popularity, believe me. In slo-mo? Yes, there is. But why care about slo-mo anyway? It should concern only tech specialists - not even judges since GOEs are not given based on slo-mo replays.

Why is Yuzuru getting similar lutz GOEs to Scherbakova anyway?

And why he shouldn't? There is nothing in GOEs criterias about prerotation

 

[rollerblade]

Her free leg looks "behind" when her landing blade touches the ice, as if she was slow to un-cross her feet, if that makes any sense. Sometimes that made her landings look suspiciously 2-footed.

I wonder how accurate those jump-scope are. How do they measure lateral distance? From overhead view or side view? Do they take curvature into account?

 

[randomfan]

I'm preparing my re-scoring for the GPF ladies, and there were a couple oddities I found in the calls. I just want to make sure that I'm not the only one seeing them (or possibly that I'm looking at them incorrectly).

Bradie received a 3Lz-3T< in the SP. On the slow-mo the 3T seemed to be borderline 1/2 UR, thus worth a <<.

Rika didn't get URs on both the 4S and the second 3A in the FS. I thought the 4S was definitely UR, while the 3A was trickier to analyze but to me it seemed that she just barely missed the clean mark.

Alina's first 2A in the FS (the one she fell on) seemed borderline rotated, but she received a <.

Also, this isn't about calls, but did Anna's 3Lz-3Lo in the FS look weird to anyone else? Obviously the landing wasn't great, but I also noticed what seemed like a two-foot on the lutz before she sprung up into the loop. I know that loop as a backend jump in a combo requires a technique that involves putting the free foot down earlier, but it seemed like Anna's lutz was already two-footed itself but just disregarded because it was a loop combo. One judge gave it a -2 (which is what I gave as well), but the other judges acted as if nothing happened. I remember there was a similar issue in her COC SP.

 

[Mishaminion]

Anna's loop combo did look weird and I noticed it at CoC too.

She lands the Lutz two footed with her free leg in front and sweeps up into the loop.

 

[skatenewbie]

I'm preparing my re-scoring for the GPF ladies, and there were a couple oddities I found in the calls. I just want to make sure that I'm not the only one seeing them (or possibly that I'm looking at them incorrectly).

Bradie received a 3Lz-3T< in the SP. On the slow-mo the 3T seemed to be borderline 1/2 UR, thus worth a <<.

Rika didn't get URs on both the 4S and the second 3A in the FS. I thought the 4S was definitely UR, while the 3A was trickier to analyze but to me it seemed that she just barely missed the clean mark.

Alina's first 2A in the FS (the one she fell on) seemed borderline rotated, but she received a <.

Also, this isn't about calls, but did Anna's 3Lz-3Lo in the FS look weird to anyone else? Obviously the landing wasn't great, but I also noticed what seemed like a two-foot on the lutz before she sprung up into the loop. I know that loop as a backend jump in a combo requires a technique that involves putting the free foot down earlier, but it seemed like Anna's lutz was already two-footed itself but just disregarded because it was a loop combo. One judge gave it a -2 (which is what I gave as well), but the other judges acted as if nothing happened. I remember there was a similar issue in her COC SP.

Rika 4S is rotated in slow mo, the second 3A is borderline < and maybe they give it benefit of the doubt? Yes i noticed Anya lutz freeleg hit the ice and give the impression of 2 footed landing...

 

[skatingfan200]

Here are the Lutz edges (ladies) -FGP

https://up.picr.de/37384721yh.png
Tennel,
https://up.picr.de/37384713nv.png
Kostornaia
https://up.picr.de/37384719xr.png
Zagitova training - good angle
https://up.picr.de/37384715nj.png
Zagitova competiton -not the best angle
https://up.picr.de/37384881us.png
Shcherbakova -not the best angle

 

[skatenewbie]

Here are the Lutz edges (ladies) -FGP

https://up.picr.de/37384721yh.png
Tennel,
https://up.picr.de/37384713nv.png
Kostornaia
https://up.picr.de/37384719xr.png
Zagitova training - good angle
https://up.picr.de/37384715nj.png
Zagitova competiton -not the best angle
https://up.picr.de/37384881us.png
Shcherbakova -not the best angle

the conclusion is all of them have either very slight outside edge or flat edge... Kostornaia seems the clearest outside edge based on this pic which is kind of surprising. Zagitova sometimes have better edge (in NHK its slight outside), Bradie have flat or very very slight outside while Anna have the worst edge among them, its between flat or slight inside, i think back then it used to be better.

 

[gkelly]

In real time? Nah, there isn't. What differs various lutzes between each other in eyes of common spectator is their height, distance and landing. And that is what should be reflected in scores first and foremost. Incomprehensible scores fluctuations due to invisible jump technicalities having zero impact on overall performance impressions isn't what is gonna increase fs popularity, believe me. In slo-mo? Yes, there is. But why care about slo-mo anyway? It should concern only tech specialists - not even judges since GOEs are not given based on slo-mo replays.


And why he shouldn't? There is nothing in GOEs criterias about prerotation

Tech panel is only allowed to look for prerotation at regular speed, not slow motion.

Judges can give a GOE us for good takeoff and landing or minus for poor takeoff or landing, if it looks poor to them in real time. So there could be a difference of say minus two to plus one based on takeoff quality alone, assuming it stands out to judges.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

In real time? Nah, there isn't. What differs various lutzes between each other in eyes of common spectator is their height, distance and landing. And that is what should be reflected in scores first and foremost. Incomprehensible scores fluctuations due to invisible jump technicalities having zero impact on overall performance impressions isn't what is gonna increase fs popularity, believe me. In slo-mo? Yes, there is. But why care about slo-mo anyway? It should concern only tech specialists - not even judges since GOEs are not given based on slo-mo replays.


And why he shouldn't? There is nothing in GOEs criterias about prerotation

Even in real time, sorry to say, prerotated jumps look quite ugly. And in slow motion they are the ugliest thing - the way the skater twists and bends their body on the ice! OMG! Not going to mention the wrong edges, the full blade take off and so on - just this twisting and bending is so... OMG... I am really sad that such skaters win gold medals and other medals regularly. :'(
Isn't there a rule that cheated take off should be penalized with -2 and -3 GOE? I think there was also a rule that more than 180 degrees prerotation jump should be downgraded - from a quad to a triple, from a triple to double. Not to mention the unclear edge that is also used for penalization.