2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[wintersmith]

You must be aware that there are a lot of fans who feel that Yuzuru was heavily underscored at GPF (and other competitions as well) and that his jumps didn't receive the GOE and recognition they should have for what they perceive to be flawless, high quality jumps. And such a thread will obviously fuel their feelings of resentment.

I genuinely thought I could ask my question and have a cup of tea, but clearly this is a sore subject indeed. I don't mean to stir up resentment by digging into the scoring system, I just want to understand it.

Would it help if I rename this thread? Can I do that? I accept suggestions. :giveup:

 

[discode]

Nathan did not watch Yuzuru skate, there was a quote somewhere.

It's so funny that Nathan's general statements about Yuzuru being more skilled are being interpreted as him saying Yuzuru deserved to win this competition. This was a subpar PCS skate for Yuzuru and his scores reflected that. And the judges had several better skates from Yuzuru to compare and contrast with it.

Part of the problem with repeating programs. And that he did such a great performance at SC. He's being compared with himself and didn't live up to that.

And I disagree that Yuzu's performance was "light-years" better than Nathan's here. It was not. He looked tried, his arms were often limp at his side and he looked down quite a bit. I would usually say Yuzu does outperform Nathan, but not in this FS. Yuzu at times looked like he was practicing jumps more than actually performing his choreography. This is really not the norm for him. You can tell the 5 quads took a lot out of him.

Their spins were also both mostly decent to somewhat good. I wouldn't brag about the spins of either. Nathan had moments in the SP were his were quite good towards the end, but in the FS I don't really remember any spin standing out. Same for Yuzu.

Anyway, there is really no basis for suggesting Yuzu should have won the SP. Unless you want to suggest Nathan UR all his jumps (which some people are).

 

[1111bm]

I genuinely thought I could ask my question and have a cup of tea, but clearly this is a sore subject indeed. I don't mean to stir up resentment by digging into the scoring system, I just want to understand it.

Would it help if I rename this thread? Can I do that? I accept suggestions. :giveup:

Not at all, I'm actually surprised how civil, reasonable and constructive the discussion has been so far, so no worries.

And as you may have noticed, the mods have already fused your thread with the more general '2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion' thread, so that has been taken care of.

 

[wintersmith]

1111bm I hadn't even noticed the thread got moved. xD Well, if everything's under control I'll go back to my tea.

 

[1111bm]

Part of the problem with repeating programs. And that he did such a great performance at SC. He's being compared with himself and didn't live up to that.

Very true. But even when he does perform well and lives up to his own standards, I do sometimes feel that the judges are in fact somewhat tired of Yuzuru's style, or at least not as wowed by it anymore. Now, I don't subscribe to the theory that ISU is trying to push Yuzuru into retirement or that they're trying to hold him down scoring-wise because he's japanese or his style isn't 'western' enough or whatever OTT theory one can come up with. But I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that his performances and trademark moves lack that special novelty or wow factor that they used to have.

Of course I don't think it is fair to judge a skater's current program with his old programs in mind, i.e. scoring him less high because he's repeating certain choreographic elements or transitions and not giving us something new each season, as long as his current performances live up to his old ones. But I think it's impossible to not take a skater's old material into account, this will inadvertently happen at least on a subconscious level. You're just not as excited seeing that Ina Bauer and hydroblade for the 6th (at least? don't know exactly) season in a row.

Yuzuru still scores incredibly well of course, especially when all the jumps are there and it's an overall triumphant skate, but just contrast the GOE of his ChSq (which was pretty much the same at GPF as it was at SC, mind you) with Nathan's here. I think that in a way it is true, that someone like Nathan, who also has the technical firepower, is the new, exciting toy for now, and that is reflected in his PCS and GOE. And I'm sure he would get away with repeating his special brand of hip, modern looking choreo for another two seasons, at least until next Olys. After that, people and the judges would get tired of it as well and yearn for something different and new again.

And I disagree that Yuzu's performance was "light-years" better than Nathan's here. It was not. He looked tried, his arms were often limps at his side and he looked down quite a bit. I would usually say Yuzu does outperform Nathan, but not in this FS.

Totally agree. Yes, Yuzuru's FS has more content than Nathan's, but his posture and movements were really lacking in this outing, so it felt less impactful than what Nathan put out.

 

[Mishaminion]

I didn't imply there were deductions for missing axel element, I just see it would have been a justification for a deduction so a low score, and this justification was not there.
I agree his jumps base value was lower than Chen's, and their grade of execution similar — Hanyu even doing "snow" at landing as Chen usually does, without lower GOEs.
But not the spins or step sequences : Hanyu's were not as good as usual, but still way better than Chen (though in this too, he did great progress; I find his spins still not very pleasant to watch, but contrary to my expectations last year, now I think he may have nice ones, maybe next year or for Olympic season, and this, without any score incentive given how he is judged, which speaks a lot about his great character, and he is still so young for a male skater), and there are the PCS. The musicality was not good (I think he also used a new record of Origin, and had probably not had time to adapt), nor the transition, but skating skills, performance, are still at light-years from Chen's, which the scores, as always, didn't reflect.
And we are speaking of an "exceptionnally bad" free program by Yuzuru Hanyu, and exceptionnally bad, I repeat, because of the judgment of the short program.

Oatmella, what an argument! We French have the same sort of argument in Le Loup et l'Agneau (The Wolf and the Lamb) by La Fontaine. ;-)

Why do you keep repeating that something was wrong with the judgement in the SP?

Do you honestly think someone who made such a major error should have gone ahead over a clean and very well done skate from Nathan?

I am a fan of Yuzu (and Nathan too) and even I think many of his fans are ridiculously biased, over the top and think he deserves to be 1st no matter if he makes mistakes or not...because he's Yuzuru Hanyu.

 

[fallingsk8er]

Yuzu is scored correctly in my opinion. He just didn’t deliver the planned content in the way we are used to seeing him, stepping out of the 3 jump combination and leaving out the 3A sequence. In addition he looked exhausted during the second half of the program. His head was down and his posture was bent over and he appeared to be gasping for breath and lacking energy....perhaps he has a training or stamina issue. The ending pose said it all about that performance. He may not be capable of executing the planned jumps yet. Maybe this experience will motivate him to skate better at worlds and reclaim his crown.

 

[Interspectator]

I for one thought Yuzu's performance was gutsy and other than the final moments, was fantastic. (As those who were at the venue live also commented)
But the placements were correct, everyone got the medals they deserved. On the whole, the top 3 guys at the GPF performed extremely well and gave the audience a real treat.

However, there is always places where observers may differ with the judges' rulings in the details. That is what this thread is for.
The arguments that judges have Yuzu's previous performances in mind when judging him may be true... and if so, it's a shame and shows a flaw in the judging process. Applied here to Yuzu, but in future, applied to any skater who achieves longevity in the sport.

-So in a few years, if Nathan proves dominant, a younger skater with lesser skills but the technical arsenal will challenge in the same way. Nathan will no doubt have improved in all aspects of his skating, and if he's still around to see it, will be judged by his absolute best performances and get marked down if he does not reach it. -While the skater in the position of the challenger will get the points boost and advantage of being the 'shiny new' toy.
This is a theory that isn't reserved for just the guys. You see this play out in even more extreme ways in the ladies' arena. Where the younger skaters with tremendous tech and very little experience are given all sorts of small scoring concessions and rocket to the top. -They ARE talented, they skate clean, they may not be polished, but the judges will score them as if they are.

Fans of both skaters will advocate that indeed the skaters deserve/do not deserve the points they are getting.

Unless some fundamental changes are made to the ways scores are applied (ie: Judging software, camera angles, AI assistance) this will not change.

-In the details, and not just for favorites, I think the judging could be much better. -More granular. Some disagree and think a clean skate + hardest jumps ought to be judged non-granular. I think that's just human nature for judges to go wild with scores for a clean performance with whatever is the highest tech at the moment. -It's an amazing thing to accomplish and extremely hard to do...the accomplishment itself can overshadow all other considerations. This is why I think AI assistance, software tweaking and more camera angles for review is necessary for more accurate judging. The human element will still be there, but the bias somewhat tempered.

-The results may be surprising as well. We may not all like what we see in a completely accurate replay. But I think it's good for a sport that wants to be more legitimate and transparent to invest in this upgrade.
Instead, we see a gala 'upgrade' with red carpet and awards, probably a lot of money spent on promotion and organization that could be used in research and improvement of the actual sport of figure skating.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think, higher tech would reach the objective of giving a "sports" legitimity to ice skating (particularly towards those who challenge its olympic status), much better than subjecting the components score to the elements one and "standardizing" GOEs whatever jumps and spins and components quality, as done now. In pole vault what matters it is the height of the last bar you pass, stylish jump or not, but if you touch it, or if you start jumping at the wrong place etc, there are sanctions; figure skating judging goes so far as to ignore objective rules to "look more athletic and less artistic", which is no good. Plus what you say about reference to former performance, which is all the most unfair towards Yuzuru Hanyu, as he had never been credited for the past quality of his free skating (maybe somehow in last Skate Canada).

 

[Mishaminion]

I think, higher tech would reach the objective of giving a "sports" legitimity to ice skating (particularly towards those who challenge its olympic status), much better than subjecting the components score to the elements one and "standardizing" GOEs whatever jumps and spins and components quality, as done now. In pole vault what matters it is the height of the last bar you pass, stylish jump or not, but if you touch it, or if you start jumping at the wrong place etc, there are sanctions; figure skating judging goes so far as to ignore objective rules to "look more athletic and less artistic", which is no good. Plus what you say about reference to former performance, which is all the most unfair towards Yuzuru Hanyu, as he had never been credited for the past quality of his free skating (maybe somehow in last Skate Canada).

I don't understand how you can say he's never been credited when he's a double Olympic Champion and broke World Records before...

He's still the highest scoring mens skater out there with the exception of Nathan Chen.

I recall reading some people get angry that Yuzu got "only" about 4 points less than perfect in PCS in an SP with a mistake. Worlds last season I think..not sure.

I mean...what the... most male skaters could only dream of getting PCS that high.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I mean, he was never credited with the real level of GOEs or PCs he deserved, at least when compared with other skaters.
If we take a program skated clean by him. He gets rather moderate GOEs for higher, longer, better rotated, smoother... jumps than others, who have muuuch lower, shorter, pre- and under-rotated, rougher jumps. But still earn the same GOEs except in case of really severe underrotation. Why?
As to components, "in his usual self" (i.e. not at the FS of the GPF) he is so very far ahead, I would say otherworldly, from others (except Alina Zagitova who is not very far from having his skating skills), that, either the judges should give him 10 (without fall) at each of the components, stating he is over the scale of the competition, then be free to use the whole scale of PCs scores for others; or they may give him less than 10, stating he could be even nearer perfection, but then, even if they consider the scale of components not to be linear but to be logarithmic (which I doubt they do), who can pass 8s? In fact very few can pass 5s.

 

[Mishaminion]

I mean, he was never credited with the real level of GOEs or PCs he deserved, at least when compared with other skaters.
If we take a program skated clean by him. He gets rather moderate GOEs for higher, longer, better rotated, smoother... jumps than others, who have muuuch lower, shorter, pre- and under-rotated, rougher jumps. But still earn the same GOEs except in case of really severe underrotation. Why?
As to components, "in his usual self" (i.e. not at the FS of the GPF) he is so very far ahead, I would say otherworldly, from others (except Alina Zagitova who is not very far from having his skating skills), that, either the judges should give him 10 (without fall) at each of the components, stating he is over the scale of the competition, then be free to use the whole scale of PCs scores for others; or they may give him less than 10, stating he could be even nearer perfection, but then, even if they consider the scale of components not to be linear but to be logarithmic (which I doubt they do), who can pass 8s? In fact very few can pass 5s.

Ah I see.

Typical argument...attack other skaters as if they're all terrible while claiming Yuzu should be given perfect 10s.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

As a solo jump in a free skate.

In the short program, from 1989 through 2018, preceding steps or other skating moves were required for the non-axel solo jump.

In the rules in effect for 2017, the requirement was worded as
"Triple or quadruple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements;"

Failing to meet that requirement required a GOE reduction.

From the 2017-18 GOE guidelines, Reductions for Errors page:

SP: No required preceding steps/movements -3
SP: Break between required steps/movements & jump/only 1 step/movement preceding jump -1 to -2

So in IJS the skater could start out with pluses for quality on the solo jump, which would then be reduced back toward or to 0, or below, on account of the lack of preceding moves.

At the same time the GOE bullets were changed in 2018, the requirement for the SP solo jump to have preceding steps was removed. On the theory that because the GOE bullet encouraged skaters to put preceding steps and other moves before many of their jumps, it was no longer necessary to require this skill for one specific element in the short program.

I've asked a tech specialist - the steps he did counts as steps before a jump in her opinion. Sorry this is tedious just very interesting.

 

[shine]

Mathman,
At the short program, he should still have been ahead of Nathan Chen, even with the missed combo. Even with the usual advantadge most judges give Natha Chen in their scoring.
This time they judged him even more harshly, while, as he had promised, he had worked extremely hard to get even more perfect transitions etc. Nearly every time I watch him I fell he surpasses my wildest imagination, here again.
And once again, but more than usual, furthermore in a final where one can expect more consistent judgment than in a CS Cup, he was not credited for his level of skating, either in GOEs or in components.
Just the sort of circumstance provoking burnouts, for your information.

The fact he chose a version of his free program of which he had had only one runthrough, and a mere sketch with little transitions, entries... if any, him so careful on perfection, and in spite of Ghislain Briand having joined him and probably tried to reason him away, shows how "out of himself" he was. I believe this skating will remain a piece of anthology for heart pain. But after all, though his level didn't pass, this time, that of Nathan Chen, as he had never been credited for its worth, why was he deducted there? And after all, he did five quads, and the program was not missing totally the axel element, as there was a single axel instead of the triple-triple combo.

After that, both him and Nathan Chen, who must be quite uneasy too because he is so honest, were as close as can ever be with polite words, from expressing how unfair the judges had been at this GPF. In fact, they do imply it in their statements, rather clearly.

Honest question, was this a parody?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Denigrating others without argument, I see...
I wouldn't call it a parody, rather a festival here.

 

[1111bm]

Honest question, was this a parody?

I was thinking about asking the same thing!
But we got our answer the moment Alina's skating was likened to and called almost equal with Yuzuru's...

Also, saying that a skater, who over the past seasons (past quad really) usually has been receiving PCS in the high 9s, even receiving some 10s (and not too shabby GOE either), is underappreciated and has never been rewarded for what he put out... um yeah.

 

[randomfan]

As to components, "in his usual self" (i.e. not at the FS of the GPF) he is so very far ahead, I would say otherworldly, from others (except Alina Zagitova who is not very far from having his skating skills)

Um, hopefully I don’t come off as rude, but Alina’s well-known for having rather weak skating skills. Most Japanese ladies are stronger there, and of course Yuzuru is way ahead of her too.

 

[Mishaminion]

Denigrating others without argument, I see...
I wouldn't call it a parody, rather a festival here.

Question for you.

What scores would you have given Yuzu for his SP and FS at the GPF? TES and PCS
What scores for each do YOU think would have been fair?

Then do the same for Nathan Chen. SP and FS scores you think are fair for him too?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Question for you.

What scores would you have given Yuzu for his SP and FS at the GPF? TES and PCS
What scores for each do YOU think would have been fair?

Then do the same for Nathan Chen. SP and FS scores you think are fair for him too?

That's a very hard question because, being in no way a figure skating expert, I just love figure skating (and cannot skate myself) I just can do comparison. I have no opinion as to, should judges call more or less in general? (when they see a prerotation, or an underrotation), and wat should be called as an edge, there is lot of discussion about it and how could I have a qualified opinion? (and assuming they see the fault, which I readily admit is hard to see with the technical means they have, but then they often rely on a skater's tendencies... except for a few ones)
While it is easier, even for such an ignorant viewer as me, to see (cheating with slow motion and photos for the details), when comparing two particular skaters in their short skating, or in their free skating, and whose jumps for instance are supposed to be the same, but are much better with one than with the other, etc, to observe there should be a difference, sometimes a big difference, and to feel shocked if, apart for the occasional angle-related mistake of fair judges, this difference doesn't appear in the scores.
Not to speak of PCs, even some less easy to see than ice-coverage...

By the way, Randomfan, could you tell me what is considered weak in Alina Zagitova's skating skills?

 

[Mishaminion]

That's a very hard question because, being in no way a figure skating expert, I just love figure skating (and cannot skate myself) I just can do comparison. I have no opinion as to, should judges call more or less in general? (when they see a prerotation, or an underrotation), and wat should be called as an edge, there is lot of discussion about it and how could I have a qualified opinion? (and assuming they see the fault, which I readily admit is hard to see with the technical means they have, but then they often rely on a skater's tendencies... except for a few ones)
While it is easier, even for such an ignorant viewer as me, to see (cheating with slow motion and photos for the details), when comparing two particular skaters in their short skating, or in their free skating, and whose jumps for instance are supposed to be the same, but are much better with one than with the other, etc, to observe there should be a difference, sometimes a big difference, and to feel shocked if, apart for the occasional angle-related mistake of fair judges, this difference doesn't appear in the scores.
Not to speak of PCs, even some less easy to see than ice-coverage...

By the way, Randomfan, could you tell me what is considered weak in Alina Zagitova's skating skills?

So how can you claim the scoring was unfair and that Yuzu should have been 1st in the SP if you can't explain WHY you believe that should have been so?

As for Alina...her skating skills are not the best amongst the ladies nevermind equal to Yuzu, and her hunched over posture is AWFUL for a start. The rest is pretty good, good enough but not WOW.