2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[anonymoose_au]

This is crazy, I love Yuzu, but his skating at the GPF was not to his usual standard. I don't know why that was, but you could see it objectively with your own two eyes.

Some Yuzu fans think he can do no wrong, I like to joke that if I'd been a judge I'd have given Plushy 10s just for stepping out on the ice, but I'm just kidding, these fans seem to actually mean it!

 

[Mishaminion]

This is crazy, I love Yuzu, but his skating at the GPF was not to his usual standard. I don't know why that was, but you could see it objectively with your own two eyes.

Some Yuzu fans think he can do no wrong, I like to joke that if I'd been a judge I'd have given Plushy 10s just for stepping out on the ice, but I'm just kidding, these fans seem to actually mean it!

Yep, they really do.

The near impossible expectations they hold him to is actually potentially harmful to him psychologically, we all know he is a perfectionist himself and the pressure to be "perfect" from his own fans must be immense.

We have all seen skaters feel like they've let their country and fans down when they've made mistakes...and apologise for it! I often feel like hugging them and saying "No, you owe nobody an apology, nobody is perfect"

 

[1111bm]

Not sure.

But in the Mens GPF SP none of the six skaters got less than an 8 other than Boyang Jin who got high 7s in Transitions...he had a poor SP too.

So DizzyFrenchie is marking Nathan down so much that his PCS for the kind of performances he put out at the GPF should have been dead last.

In the FS Boyang Jin and Dmitri Aliev both had rough skates, Aliev got FOUR fall deductions...they both got scores in the 7s across the board for PCS apart from one 8.00 for Jin in skating skills and a 6.96 performance score for Aliev, who had an absolute disaster skate in general.

So DizzyFrenchie is claiming Nathan Chen only deserves the same sort of PCS as a skater who completely BOMBED their FS.

No. DizzyFrenchie said, that he/she wouldn't mind giving him a 7 in the performance category, because DF feels PE is his best category and he's worse in all of the other ones, which has got to mean, that DF would award him less than a 7 in those, so overall he'd be scored even lower than an average of 7.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Yep, they really do.

The near impossible expectations they hold him to is actually potentially harmful to him psychologically, we all know he is a perfectionist himself and the pressure to be "perfect" from his own fans must be immense.

We have all seen skaters feel like they've let their country and fans down when they've made mistakes...and apologise for it! I often feel like hugging them and saying "No, you owe nobody an apology, nobody is perfect"

I always think about Gracie Gold's situation and how she felt ashamed for messing up at the WC in 2016, there was so much pressure for her to win the gold medal for the USA and skating fans were so critical of her after how it went down. Skaters are hard enough on themselves already without having more pressure on them from fans and others.

 

[Mishaminion]

No. DizzyFrenchie said, that she wouldn't mind giving him a 7 in the performance category, because she feels PE is his best category and he's worse in all of the other ones, which has got to mean, that she would award him less than a 7 in those, so overall he'd be scored even lower than an average of 7.

Oh...so it is even worse than I thought?

Dear Lord...

 

[Mathman]

I like to joke that if I'd been a judge I'd have given Plushy 10s just for stepping out on the ice ..

He stepped out onto the ice like he owned the arena, the parking lot, the Zamboni, and all the concession stands. "I'm Plushenko -- who are you again?"

 

[Mathman]

...(DizzyFrenchie) feels PE is Nathan's best category...

Kevin Aymoz had the best Performance, if we are talking about the Grand Prix Final LP. The audience ate him up with a spoon! :yes:

 

[Mishaminion]

He stepped out onto the ice like he owned the arena, the parking lot, the Zamboni, and all the concession stands. "I'm Plushenko -- who are you again?"

If only swagger was a PCS category, he'd have nailed a 10 every time.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If only swagger was a PCS category, he'd have nailed a 10 every time.

Well PCS does lend itself to stand for "Plushenko Component Score" I shall rate skaters on a scale of 1 to 10 on how much they look like they "own the place".

Good news for Yuzu fans he usually look like owns the rink so he can score super high

 

[Mishaminion]

Well PCS does lend itself to stand for "Plushenko Component Score" I shall rate skaters on a scale of 1 to 10 on how much they look like they "own the place".

Good news for Yuzu fans he usually look like owns the rink so he can score super high

Extra points for the way the ice looks like an explosion in a Pooh Bear factory after he finishes.
Never fails to impress!

 

[MintGreen]

If only swagger was a PCS category, he'd have nailed a 10 every time.

I still remember during Sochi team event, when Plushy stepped on ice, a commentator said, "he changed the air". Truly, it felt like that the whole world went quiet at the moment that he stepped on ice ...

 

[1111bm]

Kevin Aymoz had the best Performance, if we are talking about the Grand Prix Final LP. The audience ate him up with a spoon! :yes:

So? DizzyFrenchie's post that I paraphrased was not about who of the six competitors had the best performance in the LP, it was about how DF felt about Nathan's PCS and in which of the categories he was best in.
(and I believe DF was speaking of the SP, not LP)

(ETA: And actually, DF feels that Yuzuru, even though subpar by his own standards, still delivered the by far best performance of the night in his LP.)

 

[Tavi...]

That's a very hard question because, being in no way a figure skating expert, I just love figure skating (and cannot skate myself) I just can do comparison. I have no opinion as to, should judges call more or less in general? (when they see a prerotation, or an underrotation), and wat should be called as an edge, there is lot of discussion about it and how could I have a qualified opinion? (and assuming they see the fault, which I readily admit is hard to see with the technical means they have, but then they often rely on a skater's tendencies... except for a few ones)
While it is easier, even for such an ignorant viewer as me, to see (cheating with slow motion and photos for the details), when comparing two particular skaters in their short skating, or in their free skating, and whose jumps for instance are supposed to be the same, but are much better with one than with the other, etc, to observe there should be a difference, sometimes a big difference, and to feel shocked if, apart for the occasional angle-related mistake of fair judges, this difference doesn't appear in the scores.
Not to speak of PCs, even some less easy to see than ice-coverage...

By the way, Randomfan, could you tell me what is considered weak in Alina Zagitova's skating skills?

The ISU has issued a whole series explaining how program components are judged and giving examples. Here are the ones for skating skills:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL723B645BA5A421EF

The same poster has also posted the videos for the other categories of program components.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Yeah. Especially when you (DizzieFrenchie) say that you can't see an edge, how are you qualified to assess someone's skating skills, which entail things such as edge depth, cleanness and precision of edges during turns and steps etc.

Just have my answer deleted because I was too long writing it, and unlike for previous long messages, it wasn't kept until I log in again. >(

I said, I can't see edges live, fortunately there's slow motion and photos.
I thought I couldn't have videos until Sunday, but maybe I could have on Saturday, though I will have other things to do. What about watching Chen's and Hanyu's SP in detail?

Also, I wonder now if you can comprehend that four quads perfectly executed can get (much) higher scores than five poorly executed? If not, you should come to Ladies fan threads where opportunity for such or such skater to improve her elements, while lowering her GOEs and transitions is often discussed — because it will be reflected in their scores.

Mishaminion, I read what they said, I dont twist their meaning...
And it is very rare indeed that in any domain, there should be a GOAT. I grant you, it cannot be forever, but it can be for the past and present. In Men skating there is one now, for the first time; not in Ladies as far as I know, though there may have been one in the past? but I strongly doubt it. There is one in male ballet too (now retired), while among ballerinas there have been very strong contenders but, much as I love Sylvie Guillem or Maia Plisetskaia and a few others, no GOAT, "just" legends deserving to be so. Etc.

Gkelly, I do occassionally watch all the skaters of a GP or CS trophy, is this what you mean? So, for you, from a certain level of elements, all components should be scored the same, even where the difference is simply astonishing?

But, sorry, I cannot read further, because I won't have time to answer now, and I know I forget some.

 

[DSQ]

Slow motion can be so deceptive. In live video it’s often obvious when the weight has transferred from the blade to ‘explosive thrust’ but in slow motion low frame rate low quality image from a distance that can look like a change of edge.

I might’ve said this before but the best way to educate fans would be to put the reviewed elements on the big screen as the judges are reviewing them with a graphic if it has been called or not so people can see the process.

 

[gkelly]

Gkelly, I do occassionally watch all the skaters of a GP or CS trophy, is this what you mean?

It's a start, but it doesn't give as full perspective as experienced judges or even experienced fans of the whole sport would have.

The GP is an elite series. The scoring range tends to go from 6s to 9s there. It's very rare for skaters who are not at least "above average" in their overall skating and performance abilities to earn the opportunity to compete on that series.

CS and other senior B events may have more skaters earning 5s ("average") and sometimes 4s, but you'll only see that if you watch the whole events and not just isolated programs by skaters you've heard of. (I don't know which approach you take.) Senior skaters who deserve lower than that, and of course low-level skaters, rarely end up competing internationally at all.

So if you're looking at non-favorite world favorite medalists and declaring that they deserve 5s, what you're really saying is that their skating is among the worst you personally have ever seen and you believe it to be no better than average non-elite seniors, even though you're not very familiar, if at all, with that level of performance.

So, for you, from a certain level of elements, all components should be scored the same,

Component scores should not be driven by what elements the skaters are doing. There does tend to be some correlation, but it's not built into the scoring guidelines. I have seen skaters earn 5s while only doing double jumps.

even where the difference is simply astonishing?

The differences between top skaters will look smaller when you put them in perspective of the field as a whole.

E.g., watch your less favorite medalists at competitions where your favorite is not competing, and see how their skating compares to the other skaters at that event, including the bottom-placing skaters at that event. Evaluate their skating accord to what you see (subject to the limitations of video unless you have the opportunity to watch live) and according to all the official guidelines for scoring Skating Skills or Composition, etc.

Or else just sit back and enjoy the skating without focusing on the scores.

 

[Mishaminion]

Just have my answer deleted because I was too long writing it, and unlike for previous long messages, it wasn't kept until I log in again. >(

I said, I can't see edges live, fortunately there's slow motion and photos.
I thought I couldn't have videos until Sunday, but maybe I could have on Saturday, though I will have other things to do. What about watching Chen's and Hanyu's SP in detail?

Also, I wonder now if you can comprehend that four quads perfectly executed can get (much) higher scores than five poorly executed? If not, you should come to Ladies fan threads where opportunity for such or such skater to improve her elements, while lowering her GOEs and transitions is often discussed — because it will be reflected in their scores.

Mishaminion, I read what they said, I dont twist their meaning...
And it is very rare indeed that in any domain, there should be a GOAT. I grant you, it cannot be forever, but it can be for the past and present. In Men skating there is one now, for the first time; not in Ladies as far as I know, though there may have been one in the past? but I strongly doubt it. There is one in male ballet too (now retired), while among ballerinas there have been very strong contenders but, much as I love Sylvie Guillem or Maia Plisetskaia and a few others, no GOAT, "just" legends deserving to be so. Etc.

Gkelly, I do occassionally watch all the skaters of a GP or CS trophy, is this what you mean? So, for you, from a certain level of elements, all components should be scored the same, even where the difference is simply astonishing?

But, sorry, I cannot read further, because I won't have time to answer now, and I know I forget some.

The only thing I want to ask you is this:

Dmitri Aliev got PCS scores in the 7s and performance score of almost 7 for a meltdown FS with 4 falls, where by halfway it was clear he'd given up and wanted to be anywhere else but out on that ice.

You think Nathan Chen who skated two clean, technically difficult, highly committed performances only deserves similar PCS scores to Dmitri's disaster free skate.

How do you justify that?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The only thing I want to ask you is this:

Dmitri Aliev got PCS scores in the 7s and performance score of almost 7 for a meltdown FS with 4 falls, where by halfway it was clear he'd given up and wanted to be anywhere else but out on that ice.

You think Nathan Chen who skated two clean, technically difficult, highly committed performances only deserves similar PCS scores to Dmitri's disaster free skate.

How do you justify that?

It’s funny to see some of the (invariably biased) re-scoring of Chen online... some giving him 70-something on PCS for that perfect skate. Even if you absolutely loathe him, at that point such an assessment, even if subjective, can’t be taken seriously. Of course if the judges gave him 70 then certain people would say he should be getting 60. If his GOE was dropped to a +2 instead of +4, they’ll then complain he isn’t getting -1.

It’s not about scoring fairly, it’s about scoring super low, at which point they’ll only ask for lower scores anyway. Meanwhile you’d think +5 was too low when it comes to their faves.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

DSQ, I have perceived that. This is why I try to get several views (angles) on a program when I focus on it, and when I watch slow motion, I go back to watch "normal speed" before slow motion again (and again). I thought it was just because I am rather a "slow observer".

Gkelly, yes this is what is happening, and it is not normal. It prevents any real relevance of PCs. I don't mean they should allow a skater with a really lower level to win over another skater with much better elements, yet they are aimed at making a difference, and are not used accordingly by judges. And look at the jumps base values : simpler ones score so low, there is not such scale with components.
I must say, I have read Nathan Chen doesn't bother to try to skate better because he gets anyway high GOEs and components, I find it quite unfair mecause he did tremendous efforts and they are quite visible. Though his jumps are still rough, they are no more snowguns ;-) and he happens to have here and there nice things, and his glide improved too (which I happen to be quite sensitive to), hence his words really moved me : unlike Alysa Liu who did'nt even have to be overscored at JGPF to take silver, in spite of her inexperience and the jetlag, and seems on the way to become a great AND wonderful skater, he may well deserve his GOEs within some time, but in spite of the hopes his young age and fast progression can give, I feel improbable that he ever deserve his present PCs.

Well, I come back to the subthread of comparing Chen's and Hanyu's short programs in Torino.
As forseen, I didn't have much time today (and don't manage to catch up with the forum), I didn't find any skating map, and at the moment, I found only one take, both normal speed and slow motion, of this program : the official ISU one, Patinaje artístico Youtube channel using the same, just with 2'' less at the beginning for Yuzuru Hanyu.

Here are the elements timings. For each of them, I write the abbreviation of the element, the time of start at normal speed on ISU video, the time of start in slow motion (Chen's 4 Lutz is shown again in slow motion at 5:14 with measurements), the base value, and the GOE as appears on the screen (I didn't get the definitive ones, I know they can be found).

Nathan Chen
Element Time TSM BV GOE Score
4 Lutz 1:09 4:20 11.50 4,27 15.77
3 Axel 1:38 4:31 8.50 2.51 11.01
ChCSp4 1:43 4:42 3.20 1.01 3.21
4T+3T 2:20 4:48 13.70 2,99 16,69
StSq4 2:25 5:22 3.90 1,69 5,59
FSSp4 2:58 (no) 3.00 0,94 3,94
ChCoSp4 3:13 (no) 3.50 1,34 4,84

Yuzuru Hanyu
4Salchow 1:04 5:01 9,70 4.12 13,82
3 Axel 1:30 5:15 8.50 3.77 12.27
4T+COMBO 2.04 5.30 9.50 -5.00 4.50
FCSp4 2:09 5:41 3.20 1.01 4.21
ChSSp4 2:29 (no) 3.0 1.07 4.07
StSq4 2:40 5:48 3.90 1.64 5.54
ChCoSp4 3:11 (no) 3.50 1.40 4.90

(I send it for not losing it and seeing if lines and columns are OK, I'll edit later.)
(Well, I don't manage to get lines and columns OK so I go on, it is so late.)

If you can correct it, for instance with definitive GOEs, or if you see any mistake, you're welcome. As it is very late, this will be all for "today".

 

[Mishaminion]

DSQ, I have perceived that. This is why I try to get several views (angles) on a program when I focus on it, and when I watch slow motion, I go back to watch "normal speed" before slow motion again (and again). I thought it was just because I am rather a "slow observer".

Gkelly, yes this is what is happening, and it is not normal. It prevents any real relevance of PCs. I don't mean they should allow a skater with a really lower level to win over another skater with much better elements, yet they are aimed at making a difference, and are not used accordingly by judges. And look at the jumps base values : simpler ones score so low, there is not such scale with components.
I must say, I have read Nathan Chen doesn't bother to try to skate better because he gets anyway high GOEs and components, I find it quite unfair mecause he did tremendous efforts and they are quite visible. Though his jumps are still rough, they are no more snowguns ;-) and he happens to have here and there nice things, and his glide improved too (which I happen to be quite sensitive to), hence his words really moved me : unlike Alysa Liu who did'nt even have to be overscored at JGPF to take silver, in spite of her inexperience and the jetlag, and seems on the way to become a great AND wonderful skater, he may well deserve his GOEs within some time, but in spite of the hopes his young age and fast progression can give, I feel improbable that he ever deserve his present PCs.

Well, I come back to the subthread of comparing Chen's and Hanyu's short programs in Torino.
As forseen, I didn't have much time today (and don't manage to catch up with the forum), I didn't find any skating map, and at the moment, I found only one take, both normal speed and slow motion, of this program : the official ISU one, Patinaje artístico Youtube channel using the same, just with 2'' less at the beginning for Yuzuru Hanyu.

Here are the elements timings. For each of them, I write the abbreviation of the element, the time of start at normal speed on ISU video, the time of start in slow motion (Chen's 4 Lutz is shown again in slow motion at 5:14 with measurements), the base value, and the GOE as appears on the screen (I didn't get the definitive ones, I know they can be found).

Nathan Chen
Element Time TSM BV GOE Score
4 Lutz 1:09 4:20 11.50 4,27 15.77
3 Axel 1:38 4:31 8.50 2.51 11.01
ChCSp4 1:43 4:42 3.20 1.01 3.21
4T+3T 2:20 4:48 13.70 2,99 16,69
StSq4 2:25 5:22 3.90 1,69 5,59
FSSp4 2:58 (no) 3.00 0,94 3,94
ChCoSp4 3:13 (no) 3.50 1,34 4,84

Yuzuru Hanyu
4Salchow 1:04 5:01 9,70 4.12 13,82
3 Axel 1:30 5:15 8.50 3.77 12.27
4T+COMBO 2.04 5.30 9.50 -5.00 4.50
FCSp4 2:09 5:41 3.20 1.01 4.21
ChSSp4 2:29 (no) 3.0 1.07 4.07
StSq4 2:40 5:48 3.90 1.64 5.54
ChCoSp4 3:11 (no) 3.50 1.40 4.90

(I send it for not losing it and seeing if lines and columns are OK, I'll edit later.)
(Well, I don't manage to get lines and columns OK so I go on, it is so late.)

If you can correct it, for instance with definitive GOEs, or if you see any mistake, you're welcome. As it is very late, this will be all for "today".

Why are you avoiding the questioning of your "judgement" on what PCS Nathan "should" have got?

I don't know why you're now changing the subject to GOEs but now that you have you'll see why Nathan won the SP. Yuzu lost out on a big chunk of points for the botched combo.