2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Shayuki]

Have you read my comment before your ranting? Lol.

Never complained about underscoring for Kostornaya. I was commenting on the fact that with a 7 triple (yes, 7, not 6, btw. Wouldn’t hurt too count before complaining yourself. 2 3Lz, 2 3F, 3T, 3S, 3Lo) program, she barely led someone on TES who fell four times and also lost levels on spins. 7 points still seems like an odd difference to me, same as the 17 points difference between Liza, who landed two 3As, and her. I commented on my own view. For me falls are very distracting so seeing them score like this - no matter how difficult the attempted jump was - is the baffling thing.

As for the rest of your post... sorry to say, but your bias is showing so much. You don‘t have to continuously tear down her competitors to lift up Anna. IMO, it‘s just bad taste and adds nothing to the discussion.

True, 7 triple, my bad. I admit I was tricked by the 2T, as it's not an usual planned layout by Team Tutberidze, since it's so inefficient. Indeed, she isn't on Team Tutberidze anymore, so that was quite stupid of me... It's actually the Ashley Wagner layout, I'd call it, as she used to do that one all the time.

I guess we could also say that for the non-jumping elements Trusova got 0.28 points more, but that's not very significant. Trusova did somewhat land one quad, for what that's worth. Well, the numbers add up. It actually got hit pretty hard in the latest update. I recall Yuzuru Hanyu in CoC 2014 got quite a solid score even with 5 falls as well, actually getting the second-highest TES of the competition(not counting fall deductions), and placing second in free-skate as well. Since then, they've made falling hurt a lot more.

Well, there are some contributing factors. For example Trusova's first 4S fall was -5 but several judges called it -4 or even -3, which gave Trusova 0.39 more points than she should have, which is more than the advantage she gained in all of her non-jump elements combined.

What's more difficult, a landed triple or a fall on a fully rotated quad? A ton more skaters can land a triple jump, that's for sure, but the fallen quad gets a significantly lower score. Should it be even lower? I know some have called for falls receiving 0 points but that's quite harsh to me.

 

[colormyworld240]

Yes I agree. But as much as I love the new +5/-5 system, I do think there is some fine tuning to do. Maybe my -3 suggestion is not the best option, but perhaps spins should be valued more? I sometimes think that terrible spins get level 4s, when great spins doesn't. The criteria for spins are just a bit off I think. E.g. Nugumanova today with her fantastic spins wasn't rewarded enough.

I think so, too! But this a separate issue and doesn't affect how falls are deducted on jumps. I don't know that there can be a solution fo the jumping one but it makes for a good discussion.

 

[Skatesocs]

What is your opinion on Guliakova vs Samodurova? Is Guliakova really that much better than Samodurova?

Just answering this part. I did not care for Guliakova's skating. I'd agree that technically there are far too many similarities to Samodurova. I like Sofia's programs more.

 

[Jontor]

I think rotating a jump should earn something ie. above zero compared to not doing it at all. Actually even falling and UR. And I don't think falling on a jump should result in losing points gained from spins/steps/other jumps. It does affect the performance, but that's what PCS is supposed to be for. I think technical elements should be looked at individually, and therefore should not go under 0.

Yes I agree with that too. A rotated jump should be awarded somehow. PCS though is a different story and I don't think the judges are doing a good job there (Trusova having today the 4th best PCS score with 4 falls, how is that even logical?)

So what to do? I like the new judging system, but I don't think it is optimal.

My -3 suggestion for falls went << , do you have any suggestions?

 

[Fluture]

True, 7 triple, my bad. I admit I was tricked by the 2T, as it's not an usual planned layout by Team Tutberidze, since it's so inefficient. Indeed, she isn't on Team Tutberidze anymore, so that was quite stupid of me...

Okay, now, trying to say this as politely as possible: please check your facts. This layout by Aliona is the EXACT SAME she did with Tutberidze at the test skates before she included the 3A. It‘s also a similar layout to what Daria Usacheva is doing (only swapped 3F+Eu+3S for 3Lz+Eu+3S), what Maiia Khromykh used to be doing before she included the 4S and what Adelia Petrosyan‘s been doing. So, no, it‘s not an “inefficient“ layout, it‘s actually the best one if you don‘t have either an ultra-c element or a loop combo. The 2T‘s there because there‘s literally no way to have an 8 triple program without a 3A (and without a quad, you can‘t replace the 2T either)

Aliona (like Usacheva, like Khromykh, like Petrosyan) doesn‘t have a +3Lo combo, so her other option would be to repeat another 3T and do a 2T+2T instead. (think Medvedeva’s Eteri layouts) However, this would mean she’d have to drop either a lutz or a flip (currently, she’s repeating both) for a 3T. That would be slightly made up by the difference in +Eu vs +2T but it’s still not enough. Now, if we compare the layouts (someone check the numbers please; Maths not my thing and it‘s late lol)

e.g:

2A
3Lo+2T
2A
3S
3F+3T x
3F+3T+2T x
3Lz x

45.92



vs. Aliona‘s:


2A
3Lz+2T
2A
3Lo
3F+3T x
3F+Eu+3S x
3Lz x

46.20

Hers is higher. Not significantly so but still higher. So, they‘re doing the best possible layout for her current abilities. Note that she‘s also upgraded her spin BV, she used to have a LSp, now she dropped it for an FCSp. It‘s not worth anything yet as she keeps losing levels but they‘re trying. Plushenko‘s being stupid in many, many ways but the layout of Aliona‘s programs so far isn‘t one of them.

 

[colormyworld240]

Yes I agree with that too. A rotated jump should be awarded somehow. PCS though is a different story and I don't think the judges are doing a good job there (Trusova having today the 4th best PCS score with 4 falls, how is that even logical?)

So what to do? I like the new judging system, but I don't think it is optimal.

My -3 suggestion went << , do you have any suggestions?

Nope! I just think every time there is a factoring for triples vs. quads (and triples vs. doubles, etc.) it has to be both positive and negative. Like the GOE system: -5 on a quad is a greater negative than -5 on a triple, but then +5 on a quad is also a greater positive than +5. That's not something that can be done with staggering fall deductions (-1 in triples, -2 on quads) unless there is a positive to balance that out (+1 bonus for landing a quad).

The only way I really see it working is to to widen the GOE range even more so you can have bigger differences between a well executed triple and a fall on a quad without going into negatives for doubles. But then scores would skew towards TES even more, as it did with the +5 change. The upper GOE limit would add so much to a well executed jump (especially quads) that a PCS heavy skater without quads would not be able to catch up.

Overall, in some situations the scoring system isn't great, but I can't really think of one that's better.

 

[Paulipau]

Empress is back, I was dreaming about her winning but it seemed so unrealistic!

I really can't comprehend what a smart cookie Liza is, she had an axel, and she was not afraid to use it. If you ever wondered how many axels can be stuffed into one program- about this many.

I loved that she saw a chance, she new that if she stays cleanish, with a bit of luck, she will clam the gold. So she didn't take risks, just axeled everything!

She was not perfect but she was on fire.

 

[Jontor]

Nope! I just think every time there is a factoring for triples vs. quads (and triples vs. doubles, etc.) it has to be both positive and negative. Like the GOE system: -5 on a quad is a greater negative than -5 on a triple, but then +5 on a quad is also a greater positive than +5. That's not something that can be done with staggering fall deductions (-1 in triples, -2 on quads) unless there is a positive to balance that out (+1 bonus for landing a quad).

The only way I really see it working is to to widen the GOE range even more so you can have bigger differences between a well executed triple and a fall on a quad without going into negatives for doubles. But then scores would skew towards TES even more, as it did with the +5 change. The upper GOE limit would add so much to a well executed jump (especially quads) that a PCS heavy skater without quads would not be able to catch up.

Overall, in some situations the scoring system isn't great, but I can't really think of one that's better.

Perhaps the problem is with the PCS? Maybe there should be mandatory deductions for falls in there?

Overall, I do think the PCS system is not great. SS and Transitions are technical skills really, so there isn't much room for artistic points.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I watched the olympics with my sister (who's a casual fan) and she thought jumps where skaters fell got zero points. Could you imagine how many less quads people would do if that was the case?
I see her point, because jumps where they fall aren't completed, but I also think it's important to give points for rotation.
Maybe they could give -1 for falls on doubles, -2 for triples and -3 for quads.
Its difficult and I'm glad that I don't have to think of a solution

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Lutz/Flip pre-rotation at Russian test skates - Short Program:
Alyona Kostornaya

IMG-20201122-040901 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20201122-040901 hosted on ImgBB

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Anna Shcherbakova

IMG-20201122-040212 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20201122-040212 hosted on ImgBB

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Alexandra Trusova

IMG-20201122-041535 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20201122-041535 hosted on ImgBB

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Question - by how many degrees each of them pre-rotates?

 

[Jontor]

I watched the olympics with my sister (who's a casual fan) and she thought jumps where skaters fell got zero points. Could you imagine how many less quads people would do if that was the case?
I see her point, because jumps where they fall aren't completed, but I also think it's important to give points for rotation.
Maybe they could give -1 for falls on doubles, -2 for triples and -3 for quads.
Its difficult and I'm glad that I don't have to think of a solution

Yes, that's the thing with casual viewers. They can never understand why someone who falls still wins...

 

[eterialskating]

I‘ve just rewatched it and taken another look at the scoring and....

How on earth did Sasha end up having only about a point lower in TES than Aliona when she fell FOUR times and Aliona was visibly clean (minus the URs and lost levels - and even before the UR calls, her and Liza’s final TES were only higher by about 8 and 10 points respectively) That‘s... insane. It‘s not Sasha‘s fault, of course, and I really don’t want to kick her when she’s down already but I can’t help it... it really shows what‘s wrong with the judging/point system of this sport.

edit to clarify this: and I‘m not talking about some Plushenko bonus - the exact same would have happened under Eteri. It‘s the way falls from quads are scored. As an example - on her 4S fall she got 5.24. Aliona‘s clean 3Lo got her 5.88. Isn‘t that...a bit odd? I mean, sure, a quad‘s a quad and you should get high rewards for landing one. But if you fall... it should be another story IMO.

That's a fair TES score for Sasha. She has received her deductions so there is no conceiving argument for her tech score to be reduced more. That's what it is, she rotated and fell on her quads and should be given her due. The problem lies in her PCS which should have been at most in low 60's. This is the same joke PCS that Kostner received in her typical 4-fall performances.

 

[Amei]

That being said acting like Sasha is done after one poor performance is ridiculous. This has been a difficult year for every skater and even with that she’s looked strong at each of her previous performances under Plushenko. If there starts being a pattern then there’s a reason to be concerned but until then she’s allowed to have one bad day at a competition that doesn’t really matter this year.

But she does have a pattern of performing poorly at competitions; this was just 1 of several, she performed very poorly at 3 major competitions last year, GPF, Nationals and Europeans. And I wouldn't call her Cup events this year "strong" competitions: the triple axel has been messy where she's getting negative GOE on it and her FS have had issues: her first cup event she only 1 fall but there was ugly 4Lz landing that could have easily been called a fall, her second cup event she had 2 falls. In addition to the falls still happening, she's now getting unclear edge calls on her flip jumps, I believe today was her first competition this season where she didn't get that flip edge called.

Is she done, no - but I think she has put or is putting herself in a position of having a reputation of not being reliable to deliver when it matters, which is what caused Maxim Kovtun to be replaced by Plushenko for the Sochi Olympics.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I watched the olympics with my sister (who's a casual fan) and she thought jumps where skaters fell got zero points. Could you imagine how many less quads people would do if that was the case?

The failed elements really hurt her, even though she didn't get 0 points. She lost 6 points in fall deductions, so 1.5 points per fall. If you subtract 1.5 from each of those elements, they all score lower than well executed 2A like Guliakova did with +2 GOE totaling 3.96 points. If failed quads score lower than doubles, I think that's a fair trade-off.

 

[silveruskate]

Kostornaya jumped 6 triples and two 2Axels. That's very weak technical content, and she also got two URs, and a Q. Lost levels and variations as well, as you say. It's really not that strange. Underscoring isn't what I'd complain about, I think Kostornaya got scored way too high for that program. 142 points for such a soulless, 6 triple program that was bleeding levels on just about every element? It's genuinely baffling.

And in reality, Trusova got 7 points lower in TES. Obviously, it's not listed in TES, but falls still are falls and I would consider those to be a part of TES. In general, it's rather odd to me to not consider fall deduction when talking about how high someone's scoring is with multiple falls.

On the topic of Trusova, this is exactly what I was saying. Why does she want to do even more quads when she couldn't even skate her 2-3 quad programs cleanly? She should be consistent with those before adding more, that just leads to disaster, exactly as we saw with her skate here.

It was predictable, too, which is why it's a great shame that Anna was not able to compete. This essentially was a very low level competition and a total free win for her. Yes, Tuktamysheva's winning score of 223 is quite respectable, but the only reason they scored her that high is because the competition was a total disaster otherwise and they scored her through the roof just for skating halfway decently. In reality her performance barely deserved 210 if that, but it is what it is.

At least get your facts right before trying to drag Kostornaia as per usual. It was a 7 triple program.

Alina's your favourite right? Maybe you're clueless to this but Alina's Olympic program is only 1.2 points higher than Aliona's current layout. -2Lo for Alina, and an -eu- for Aliona the difference. So weak.

 

[eterialskating]

Its outrageous to penalize quad falls even more than triple ones. As it is they already get much higher deductions because of the GOE factoring. They also rightfully get much higher GOE because of the same fact. All falls should be penalize the same no matter what revolutions they are. My suggestion is each time a skater falls is to count the number of falls a skater has had at that point and then deduct it from the score. Since Sasha fell 4 times she would get -10 deductions instead of just -6.

 

[kirauza343]

But she does have a pattern of performing poorly at competitions; this was just 1 of several, she performed very poorly at 3 major competitions last year, GPF, Nationals and Europeans. And I wouldn't call her Cup events this year "strong" competitions: the triple axel has been messy where she's getting negative GOE on it and her FS have had issues: her first cup event she only 1 fall but there was ugly 4Lz landing that could have easily been called a fall, her second cup event she had 2 falls. In addition to the falls still happening, she's now getting unclear edge calls on her flip jumps, I believe today was her first competition this season where she didn't get that flip edge called.

Is she done, no - but I think she has put or is putting herself in a position of having a reputation of not being reliable to deliver when it matters, which is what caused Maxim Kovtun to be replaced by Plushenko for the Sochi Olympics.

Yes she had some issues last year which is why I specifically referred to her performances with Plushenko. Different coach, different atmosphere, different year. She’s at least been rotating and landing the triple axel even if she can’t hold on to the landing which is an improvement over her one underrotated fall last year. She may not have skated clean but I’d still call her Russian Cup performances strong under the circumstances and in comparison to a lot of the other top skaters. She’s already back to attempting the number of quads she was last year which is more than anyone else can say and she’s hit each one at least once in competition. And let’s not forget that everyone’s having jump troubles right now. No one has been very consistent.

I would definitely be concerned though if she has another competition like this because that would be a pattern forming for her even under Plushenko

 

[Amei]

The failed elements really hurt her, even though she didn't get 0 points. She lost 6 points in fall deductions, so 1.5 points per fall. If you subtract 1.5 from each of those elements, they all score lower than well executed 2A like Guliakova did with +2 GOE totaling 3.96 points. If failed quads score lower than doubles, I think that's a fair trade-off.

Perhaps they need to adjust the deductions for falls - if you fall on a jump it's deducted from your TES vs. at the bottom after your TES and PCS are added together? Perhaps they should add in a 10% reduction on total PCS if a skater has more than 3 falls? I don't think of an instance where a skater wouldn't have a splatfest and should still get high marks on their second score, but name skaters can often get away with that

Once you take in the 1 point deduction for a fall I think the jumps are scored fine. They have to keep it enticing enough for skaters to still go for the more difficult elements or else the sport will stagnate

 

[silveruskate]

Its outrageous to penalize quad falls even more than triple ones. As it is they already get much higher deductions because of the GOE factoring. They also rightfully get much higher GOE because of the same fact. All falls should be penalize the same no matter what revolutions they are. My suggestion is each time a skater falls is to count the number of falls a skater has had at that point and then deduct it from the score. Since Sasha fell 4 times she would get -10 deductions instead of just -6.

I think this is really sensible.

 

[Znowflake]

I am just putting this out there: skates with constant falls are getting boring and don't convey the same emotion - 20 years ago, skating was so much more interesting where falls were more heavily penalized.. If we even look at Zagitova or Medvedeva, I'd take a clean performance, with difficult triple jumps, any day with their story-telling abilities over performances filled with flaws/falls. I mean think of their olympic performances - would you think it would have been fair if Trusova won over either of their performances if she fell on 3 quads but landed 2 with combos? I love Trusova and enjoy her skating and wish she would be clean - and when she is, she should win with her technical abilities. But if she falls the way she did today, I don't think it is acceptable that the judging system would put her in 4th..