2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Baron Vladimir]

So you agree they aren't really judged in a competition, too! :yes:

In a competition, they are judged based on what they can do/demonstrate with their spinning and SS and other required things in a 3 minutes of a skating programme on one exact day and within some 'exact rules' of that competition. Not on what their spins, SS or other things inherently are. As it is in any other sport competition in the world.

 

[Mathman]

In order to win a sport/figure skating competition, we should 'judge' skaters in relation to that sport competition with its own rules. Judging skaters outside of it using our own subjective preconception of what something is, or it's not, or what something should be, is just not sportish, and wouldn't be call a sport competition or an Olympic sport.

To me, the question is not about the skater, it is about the sport.

Yes, sports have rules. But every year the ISU tweaks the rules in an attempt to make the sport better. This year alone the ISU proposed that the sport would be better if Lutz jumps were not worth so much compared to flips. Then they changed their minds, and said, no we were wrong about that. It is better to keep it the way it is.

A few years ago the ISU thought that the sport would be better if a bonus were given for jumps in the second half. Then they decided that they had gone too far in that direction and the sport would be better with a more moderate provision for second-half jumps.

Now there is some talk -- so far, just talk -- about whether the sport would be better (or worse) if it had a Technical Program and an Artistic program with somewhat different goals, instead of two more or less identical programs, one a liittle longer and the other a little shorter.

But to me, here's the thing. What should be our guide in deciding what "better" means? I think it is perfectly reasonable to look at past performances and -- setting aside the question of who won or lost -- ask ourselves, is this what we mean by "good skating?"

I have sympathy for the opinion that "good skating" was what Robin Cousins did in the 1980s. All this jumping -- meh. The argument that "good skating" means "scoring lots of IJS points, and the reason I know this is what good skating means is that the ISU code of points says so" -- I think that answer poses the question too narrowly and puts the cart before the horse. Especially when the ISU itself changes it's mind every year about what "good skating" means (come back tomorrow for the new definition).

We could, in fact, go the other way. First, collect a bunch of performances that everyone agrees (hah!) represent good skating. Second, abstract from these performance just what it is that informs out judgment that this is good skating. And only last -- not first -- codify this into a set of rules for competition.

Actually, I think that this is what the ISU has done and continues to do. And overall I think that they have done a pretty good job of it. I have no complaint with the current version of the final producrt. But it came from the distillation of opinions and tastes of many observers, not from Mount Sinai written on tablets of stone.

 

[flanker]

We could, in fact, go the other way. First, collect a bunch of performances that everyone agrees (hah!) represent good skating. Second, abstract from these performance just what it is that informs out judgment that this is good skating. And only last -- not first -- codify this into a set of rules for competition.

Yes, hah! Please, do not send a holy war down on mankind

Now, what I see as a bigger problem than figure skating folk killing each other is that having something like paragon of good skating could easily turn into fixing some state, good would be not coming with new ideas but trying to get close to "matrix" and adding things or leaving something behind (changes, progress) could be considered unwanted.

 

[Scott512]

You‘re right, I didn‘t do one. That‘s because Zhenya and Aliona are my absolute favorites so it would defeat the whole purpose of the exercise, wouldn‘t it? The point was to say something nice about someone you‘re not explicitly a fan of. I could say tons of nice things about Aliona and Zhenya. But that would mostly be boring everyone to death here.



I disagree on Gubanova and I frankly don‘t feel comfortable discussing her weight. Why should that have anything to do with her qualities as a performer? It doesn‘t and it‘s not the point. Rather, if I had to speculate I‘d say it‘s that the frequent coaching changes, the constant adjusting to new environments and more time being spent on technical stuff made her work less on her artistry. Also, the stress and pressure of not living up to past success can‘t have helped. She started out way above most other skaters but then stagnated. There was a time when even when her jumps began to fail her she still performed beautifully.

Case in point:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMiMalrdiw

She bombed the jumps but her musicality and the way she gently emphasized even the small notes and changes of the music - especially in the first part of the program - is astounding. I haven‘t seen that from her in a while. In fact, before I saw these old programs (her FS at the JGPF being another one), I never understood why so many were praising her artistry so much.



Agreed here. It‘s long overdue. Eteri‘s “angels“ (don‘t let Plushenko hear that lol) will have no problems getting to Nationals. It‘s skaters like Sima and Gubanova who will struggle with that. And with the way we might not have a GP or Challenger season, making Nationals is even more important if they want to have any chance at competing at all this season.



I wouldn‘t say the UR calls are not warranted. They are. She really does underrotate the majority of her jumps and it‘s been a problem ever since she was a novice. Her and Gubanova were all the rage in 2015-16, with people here on goldenskate saying they’d be the best Russian skating would produce in years. I watched some of Nugumanova‘s old programs recently and her artistry and spins really were outstanding for a 12 year old but even then, the majority of her jumps were cheated.

That‘s not to say that she isn‘t underscored. She is, just not on the jumps. Her spins deserve way more GOE and her PCS are way too low. She‘s a beautiful skater but sadly, in Russian ladies skating that‘s not enough if you don‘t have the jumps.

Also agree she would make a good pairs skater in principle but I doubt it‘s that easy. Pairs skating is - in many ways - even more difficult than singles as it requires placing a high amount of trust for your physical well-being into another person‘s hands. It’s scary getting thrown into the air and having to rely on someone else catching you lol. Not everyone can do that, it takes a special character. Vasilieva has recently tried it, let‘s see what she can do.


I wish her good luck, too, I quite liked her programs last season. What she, imo, needs right now is for someone to tell her to ditch the tanos and rippons and focus on landing the jumps consistently. She‘s probably the biggest head case in Russian skating and it‘s such a shame as she has tons of potential, was given tons of chances, and could have won much more than she did. Maybe Plushenko can help her, who knows.

So you only like Aliona and evgenia? Man you are stingy.

Thank you for such detailed explanations. I haven't heard the word astounding in a long time pertaining to nastya. Thank you for that video and you are correct she has subtleties that are wonderful. I think you still has those subtleties. Since she was only 14 when she did that free skate I would love for her to bring that music back as an adult skater. It's very beautiful and romantic music. It's just odd that 44 people gave that performance of thumbs down. I enjoyed Ted's commentary as well.

If anyone can make the switch to pairs it would be a little Liza. But that's also the most dangerous of the four disciplines. Yes she and nastya where the rage in 2015. But no one really knew the floodgates would open with the depth and talent of the Russian girls like it has.


Stasya needs a bounce back season. But will we even have a season? Figure skating may do what Gulf is doing and that's competing but not having spectators.

Stanislava is one of the loveliest figure skaters I can remember and she's a sweetie person may be too sweet for the rough-and-tumble. world of figure skating.

I'm glad you agree that the Russian Federation should expand the amount of skaters they have at Nationals. But nobody ever makes the changes we want so it's like swimming against the current. But if they don't expand the numbers and as you mention it will be tough for skaters like Sima and nastya to even make it to Nationals. But that's sports and that's life.

Did Zhenya leave Japan yet?

 

[Mathman]

Now, what I see as a bigger problem than figure skating folk killing each other is that having something like paragon of good skating could easily turn into fixing some state, good would be not coming with new ideas but trying to get close to "matrix" and adding things or leaving something behind (changes, progress) could be considered unwanted.

I actually think that the ISU has done a good job over the years of respecting the traditions of the sport while at the same time encouraging innovation and growth.

There is always room to do more. For instance, I would like to see the list of scored elements expanded so that skating will not lose old-timey but still cool moves like the one foot Axel, or a right-way/wrong-way Lutz sequence. I once saw a pairs Mazurka jump in Killian position!

In one version of the Code of Points a skater could earn a one time two-point bonus for doing a "unique" move. This bonus was never awarded, not even once, because no skater wanted to leave his comfort zone (at least, not for a lousy two points. )

However, I am greatly impressed when I see grainy old movies of Ulrich Salchow or Karl Schaefer. They could mesmerize the audience -- at least they continue to mesmerize me 100 years later -- just by skating. Gliding, stroking, turns, edges, a few spins -- OK, a jump as a highlight element, but not as the meat-and-potaoes of the performance. Maybe I am seeing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I think that something has been lost over the years, something that at one time set figure skating apart as something more than just "another higher faster stronger" sport.

 

[Mathman]

To Flanker: By the way, if it makes you feel any better about all the passive-aggressive posts, "I like Alina but ... ", believe me, this is nothing. No one is saying that the ISU should take away her Olympic gold medal. No one is threatening to kill her. As was the fate of Aldelina Sotnikova in 2014.

(Although, I do remember the fan wars between Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan. There was an entire section on TerrorWorld -- I mean TaraWorld -- where young fans would write fan fiction detailing elaborate plots to kidnap Michelle just before an event and lock her in a closet so Tara could win. )

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I am just dying to see Trusova’s new programs. I wonder if the choreography will be a lot different; I wonder if Plushenko is making her drill her spins; I wonder how the 3A and 4sal are coming along.
What could the style be? Will she go Mother of Dragons or Sleeping Beauty?

 

[lesnar001]

To Flanker: By the way, if it makes you feel any better about all the passive-aggressive posts, "I like Alina but ... ", believe me, this is nothing. No one is saying that the ISU should take away her Olympic gold medal. No on is threatening to kill her. As was the fate of Aldelina Sotnikova in 2014.

(Although, I do remember the fan wars between Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan. There was an entire section on TerrorWorld -- I mean TaraWorld -- where young fans would write fan fiction detailing elaborate plots to kidnap Michelle just before an event and lock her in a closet so Tara could win. )

TerrorWorld
Even in the early days of the internet the fan wars were raging.

"Fan Fiction"....
Does any other sport even have this?
Red Sox Nation used to chant "Jeter S#&ks", but I don't recall anybody writing stories about his untimely demise right before the playoffs.
Of course there are some Yankee Fans who believe Schilling's "Bloody Sock" in 2004 was a work of fiction involving ketchup.

On a serious note - what Adelina Sotnikova went through was horrible.
Because we know from experience (Monica Seles) that some sports fans are evil enough to actually try it.

 

[lesnar001]

However, I am greatly impressed when I see grainy old movies of Ulrich Salchow or Karl Schaefer. They could mesmerize the audience -- at least they continue to mesmerize me 100 years later -- just by skating. Gliding, stroking, turns, edges, a few spins -- OK, a jump as a highlight element, but not as the meat-and-potaoes of the performance. Maybe I am seeing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I think that something has been lost over the years, something that at one time set figure skating apart as something more than just "another higher faster stronger" sport.

NBC did a story on the "Battle of the Brians" during the 2018 Olympics, I immediately noticed how much more "commanding" their actual skating was. (if that's the right word). I don't skate, so I have no actual knowledge, but I think that training compulsory figures probably made them stronger skaters.

It would be nice if they had something like that again. Only not the painfully boring and rarely televised thing they had back then. Where sometimes the overall result may be pretty well known after a segment that no one outside of the judges even saw.
Maybe another even shorter short program. Set to music, but concentrating only on actual skating elements.

 

[flanker]

To Flanker: By the way, if it makes you feel any better about all the passive-aggressive posts, "I like Alina but ... ", believe me, this is nothing. No one is saying that the ISU should take away her Olympic gold medal. No on is threatening to kill her. As was the fate of Aldelina Sotnikova in 2014.

(Although, I do remember the fan wars between Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan. There was an entire section on TerrorWorld -- I mean TaraWorld -- where young fans would write fan fiction detailing elaborate plots to kidnap Michelle just before an event and lock her in a closet so Tara could win. )

I'm lucky I wasn't a figure skating fan back then. Even years later the after-effects are still strong (and making some discussions unreadable), so being there when it was in full strength I would have gone absolutely nuts.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

However, I am greatly impressed when I see grainy old movies of Ulrich Salchow or Karl Schaefer. They could mesmerize the audience -- at least they continue to mesmerize me 100 years later -- just by skating. Gliding, stroking, turns, edges, a few spins -- OK, a jump as a highlight element, but not as the meat-and-potaoes of the performance. Maybe I am seeing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I think that something has been lost over the years, something that at one time set figure skating apart as something more than just "another higher faster stronger" sport.

There is a strong reason why figures and compulsory dance are not anymore part of the sport. Because general public stopped to watch it. Even when USA had Olympic Champions in Ice Dance, that discipline was still less favourable among their public. Sport is changing in order of what general public at that moment wants to see. We can just accept the fact that future will always look different than the past

 

[Scott512]

To Flanker: By the way, if it makes you feel any better about all the passive-aggressive posts, "I like Alina but ... ", believe me, this is nothing. No one is saying that the ISU should take away her Olympic gold medal. No on is threatening to kill her. As was the fate of Aldelina Sotnikova in 2014.

(Although, I do remember the fan wars between Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan. There was an entire section on TerrorWorld -- I mean TaraWorld -- where young fans would write fan fiction detailing elaborate plots to kidnap Michelle just before an event and lock her in a closet so Tara could win. )

What was done to Adelina was beyond vicious and outrageous it was threatening. Life changed for that girl for the worse. I hope no skate or star or athlete ever has to undergo that kind of abuse for years.

 

[Mathman]

compulsory dance

I really liked the compulsory dances. We got to see what the dances were supposed to look like. Plus we could compare apples to apples to see who did it best. With just the original dance and the free dance, we get costumes, choreography, play-acting, etc., etc.-- everything except the technical mastery of the medium that the skaters are supposed to be demonstrating. It would have been even better if commentators had mentioned which edge the dancers are supposed to be on at which beat, etc.

The future will always be different from the past. On the other hand, we are not obliged to go gentle into that good night.

 

[Amei]

There is a strong reason why figures and compulsory dance are not anymore part of the sport. Because general public stopped to watch it. Even when USA had Olympic Champions in Ice Dance, that discipline was still less favourable among their public. Sport is changing in order of what general public at that moment wants to see. We can just accept the fact that future will always look different than the past

Well what the ISU could do is make figures and compulsory dance required in the Juniors division since its got extremely low attendance, and skaters would have those fundamentals before they go into seniors.

 

[Mathman]

Well what the ISU could do is make figures and compulsory dance required in the Juniors division since its got extremely low attendance, and skaters would have those fundamentals before they go into seniors.

!!!!! :yes:

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Well what the ISU could do is make figures and compulsory dance required in the Juniors division since its got extremely low attendance, and skaters would have those fundamentals before they go into seniors.

Very good idea, indeed


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

 

[el henry]

.... whole post

Thank you for your answer; I think my issue lies with "best skater" equals "winning skater".

I may agree that such and such a skater is the winning skater, (indeed who won would be a fact) but I do not think I am not obliged to agree that they are the "best". I can disagree that they were judged accurately, I can disagree that the elements are given proper weighting, I can disagree on the color of the costume. That's the beauty, and the problem, of a judged sport. "Best", for me, is subjective. Now I know if someone loves a skater who is winning everything in sight, they will use that record to support why their skater is "best". As well they ought. But I can argue with that if I disagree, and I will

It is much like the issue I have with more rotations in the air as the only definition of "progress". It may be progress to some, it may inspire thrills and chills, and who am I to argue with that? But it is far from the only definition. At least for me.

ETA: and in response to other posts, I hated figures back in the day, because, well, Toller. And Compulsory Dances with the same music all day made me mental. But I think the idea to have them at junior comps, where in most countries absolutely nobody attends, is a great idea. Instill them while they're young.:agree:

 

[Flying Feijoa]

In some feds like Canada, it's sort of compulsory to test the compulsory/pattern dances already I remember reading about some male ice dancer, already well-established at the international level coming to Canada and having to learn and pass tests for the Gold/Diamond dances as a prerequisite to compete in nationals with his Canadian partner (may have been Nikolaj Sorensen, not sure). Although they usually aren't part of competition (for the competitive-stream skaters).

Since I do ice dance recreationally myself, I really appreciate being able to refer to Youtube for dances that I'm working on (Kilian, Starlight Waltz etc.) and see them being performed at the Olympic level. I can understand why casual viewers might be bored watching compulsories many times in a row in a competitive event, so I agree that keeping the pattern dances out of senior/high-spectator events but requiring them for skater development is a good compromise. Not sure whether having them in international junior events like JGP is a good idea though, given the extra cost/logistics.

Side note, I'm surprised how mediocre many top ice dance teams' pattern dance sections are nowadays, even compared with a decade ago. I guess it's just not weighted high enough within the short/rhythm dance - there's no incentive to strive for key points etc. when you can make up the difference with a good lift or get high GOE for a lower level pattern. Ice dance seems to be becoming more like a jump-less version of pairs (no disrespect to pairs, my favourite discipline to watch, which incidentally is drawing a lot of choreographic influence from ice dance nowadays).

PS. Much as I find it interesting, I'm not sure if this discussion belongs in the Russian Ladies thread... maybe someone could relocate it? topic:

 

[Skatesocs]

But to me, here's the thing. What should be our guide in deciding what "better" means? I think it is perfectly reasonable to look at past performances and -- setting aside the question of who won or lost -- ask ourselves, is this what we mean by "good skating?"



We could, in fact, go the other way. First, collect a bunch of performances that everyone agrees (hah!) represent good skating. Second, abstract from these performance just what it is that informs out judgment that this is good skating. And only last -- not first -- codify this into a set of rules for competition.

Actually, I think that this is what the ISU has done and continues to do. And overall I think that they have done a pretty good job of it. I have no complaint with the current version of the final producrt. But it came from the distillation of opinions and tastes of many observers, not from Mount Sinai written on tablets of stone.

I think I agree that ISU hasn't done a bad job with progress. To me, jumps matter a lot, and it would be a loss to not watch new combos and big jumps. I just wish the judging actually made sure this is what was rewarded, and that there were some modifications in the rules that made sure this quality (mentioned earlier, pacing, speed, big jumps) were rewarded more than just quantity. Why have they not rewarded +Triple Loop combos more? Or the one-foot jumps you've mentioned, or Lutz+Lutz. They can go further, and it does need to be based in history to an extent.

Also, Terror World, lol. And thanks for arguing with such a clear flow of logic in a calm tone.

Now, what I see as a bigger problem than figure skating folk killing each other is that having something like paragon of good skating could easily turn into fixing some state, good would be not coming with new ideas but trying to get close to "matrix" and adding things or leaving something behind (changes, progress) could be considered unwanted.

To clarify, I don't think progress should be stopped. Just some qualities that have been lost to make a comeback. It's a huge task to combine it all, but I believe it can be done. No reason to not see 4T+1Lo+3S with huge speed into the jump and plenty of elevation. If series of transitions need to be dropped to get this, let it be. It's still exciting to me. Again, they haven't even incentivised +Triple Loops, or +Triple Flips, and we're missing out on things like 4T+3T+3Lo, too.

 

[JazzUp]

To Flanker: By the way, if it makes you feel any better about all the passive-aggressive posts, "I like Alina but ... ", believe me, this is nothing. No one is saying that the ISU should take away her Olympic gold medal. No one is threatening to kill her. As was the fate of Aldelina Sotnikova in 2014.

Then you must have been asleep for a long while after 2018 Oly's or are (wilfully?) ignorant of the threats Alina received IRL - a video by a popular Russian fs blogger saying she wants to "smash Alina's face" and telling her viewers to "break her legs" is still available somewhere on Youtube despite numerous reports since apparently some irrelevant Tatar girl's life doesn't matter enough - among the few of "no one threatening" her kind.

Hope you never have to experience this kind of "nothing".