2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

I think this is perfectly doable. Sasha's performance was good enough to earn her a likely medal at Worlds, Makar's was not.

This could be used as a justification and it would be fair in my opinion.

But then you have a slippery slope and I don't want to hear any outrage at the Evgenia/Liza decision. It's the same thing because that would be naming someone to a team just because you want her there and wasn't that what people were upset about with Liza?? Remember that Sasha also had a disastrous performance at Rostelecom Cup (so did Makar) and was number 3 last year (repeatedly). Remember also that Liza won Rostelecom and Aliona got silver (without her 3As). Yes it's one competition but so is RusNats. You don't get to say ignore Rostelecom for Sasha, What is Liza going to say to that?, while not also taking into account withdrawls and misses elsewhere for everyone else. Basically everyone has one missed comp with either a withdrawl or a injury/illness leading to a bit of a meltdown. Is Sasha's peak higher? Of course. But even this year alone, she HAS been beaten by both Aliona and Liza and last year she lost to Aliona every single time. Remember Aliona is the reigning Euros champion. They are going to give her every chance to be on that team. Liza just did win Rostelecom, and does have 3As (and a quad). You can argue she was worse here, yes, but Sasha was worse at Rostelecom.

Also there is no guarantee that that performance would have even won a medal at World's. Aliona can beat that even without being at her peak (three 3As) as Aliona gets the highest PCS in the world and even 1 or 2 3As might be enough. Remember it took Anna 3 quads (which is more than Anna/Sasha had here) to beat 3As from Aliona and that was just barely (if she falls on one even if Aliona falls too it isn't enough). And you're forgetting about Rika who landed a 3A in the short and a 4S,3A in the FS. A 3A and 4S,3A can beat a 2 quad Sasha. I think there BV was about 6 points difference (across both programs). Rika can make up almost a 5 point difference in PCS alone. Also Rika is Japan's number 1. Sasha's is Russia's 2/3. Remember GPF last year? Both had disastrous skates (with one fall in both the SP and FS and with mistakes and under rotations elsewhere and yet Rika's PCS were almost 5 points higher. Yes Sasha won but she had a higher technical content there than she had here (without the 3A and with only 2 quads.)

That's not to say Sasha can't and won't. I think she will. She can win World's for that matter. (Which would make me happy but any of these girls winning would make me happy.) But it isn't necessarily likely that performance medals. Are the others consistent and sure to land all their jumps? Do they have them all back (including Anna)? No but neither is Sasha. Sasha herself said that she can't remember the last time she had a clean FS. And also doesn't have everything back yet (in fact she can't even train her 3A or other quads).

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Mens and Ladies free skate together with both PCS fatoring 2.0

1. Shcherbakova 203.06
2. Kolyada 193.67
3. Valieva 193.10
4. Trusova 188.83
5. Usacheva 172.07
6. Kondratiuk 169.43
7. Ignatov 167.07

I would put Usacheva behind both Kondratiuk and Ignatov (because of her technical content, mind you, not because of her components), but apart from that, I am fine with the qualitative order of this list. (Qualitative, because the absolute gap in points between Anna and Misha is too large, IMO).

 

[Scott512]

LOL! Four valid points! The secret here is to watch were you're going so you don't fall into the quicksand. And use the Ignore button a lot!

I have never used the ignore button or blocked anybody on any message board let alone this one.

Do you think the fed is making Anya and the other skaters who had pneumonia or Covid who went to rusnats lay low for a while and self quarantine?

 

[flanker]

In his/her lament that this thread brings out the worst in him/her.

It brings out the worst in me, too It seems like most of the posts that dominate this thread are about

(a) which Russian lady skater we hate the most;
(b) which Russian coach we hate the most;
(c) which Russian judges, Russian federation officials, and Russian journalists we hate the most (all of them); or
(d) which Golden Skate posters we hate the most.

It wears on my good humor. I try not to read this thread at all, but somehow I am drawn to it, rather as a pathologist is drawn to a disease.

You're right, though in other words and ways this was pointed many times here, including the threads - I hope I finally wrote the word correctly - for the previous seasons. Also I would add another items. For instance:
(e) which russian lady skater is doping;
(f) which russian lady skater suffers from anorexia;
(g) which russian lady skater has the worst jumping technique;
(h) which white knight will save us all.
Most of them are often found relevant or abusive depending on who is the subject.

Case in point. I made no comparison between Anna and an Indian killer. Indeed, I made no mention on Anna whatsoever. Or of Eteri. Or anyone else connected to skating. I just seconded the previous poster in his general observation that concepts of heroism change over time -- an extremely uncontroversial bromide if ever there was one. And yet, here we are.

You never know here... Many disputes come simply from different standards for different things. You can give arguments about them, but the problem is when someone tries to take the moral high ground. For instance some things possible in Russia when training 11 y. o. kids can be seen unacceptable in the US, on the other hand in Russia I bet you won't see 11 y. o. child drag queen in an Urgant Show like one can see in analogue shows in the US. I am not moral relativist, but I understand that I can't change the world just the way I think the things should be done.

I'm relieved I'm not the only one who has this issue.

Perhaps we need a support thread or I need to get one of those electric bracelet things that gives you a shock when you think bad thoughts.

Or may I'll just use a rubber band this may work...

How about a "venting" thread", where anyone could scold freely when something (someone) makes you angry and be relieved

 

[Scott512]

No I guess not.

But call me strange, I'm far happy to NOT be the sort of person who looks my family in the eye and basically gives them the finger for being worried about me.

TBH I don't see why I should care about Anna's health when are so clearly doesn't. Have at it Anna, but don't expect me to feel sorry for you if it all goes to Hell.

Various posters have gotten their back up because we've apparently tried to "coddle" Anna under the guise of being concerned, so fine I won't.


Well I wasn't focused on that, but yes they should follow their own precedent and name the two spots as they always have.

That's the Russian Figure Skating Fed for you though, always moving the goal posts.

Which is why I'm worried for Sasha...I can see her aggravating her injury "winning" the spot any then not even able to compete

The fed should stop being stupid and just name her to the worlds team. Her and Anna together is in almost unbeatable duo.

Why should sasha have to skate an extra dam competition when they're probably won't even be a world championship again because of covid? Everyone knows she was hurt at the Moscow GP and had the limit her free skate at nationals.. This is where sashes new coach should be using his big mouth to put pressure on the federation not to make sossius gate while injured. Nationals is one thing and sasha was outstanding there. But the maker skate possibly injured at some meaningless event is nonsensical.

Also if for some reason Anya has an off skate at a world championship at least you still have Sasha there to pick up the slack in a way no other Russian girl can do. If alyona looks to be in good form before worlds then she should get the 3rd spot because we know she can score 220 to 230 even without her 3A.

 

[chasingneverland]

Chasing how can you respond better to something that you can't defend? In America I would say over 99% of the people are wearing masks using hand sanitizers washing their hands better doing all the proper protocols and yet covid still won't go away. All the other viruses that America has been hit with in the last 20 years and there have been numerous viruses have gone away in a year or so. This one is tough this covid 19 is like Sars on steroids.
Dozens of countries have been hit with covin a second or 3rd time. You would think these countries medical people would be able to see you this out but they have not.

Anna like most athletes is wired differently than the average person which is why they can achieve greatness that 99.9% of the world population cannot. Anna believe it or not is also her own boss. Since her Parrents and coaches could not get her to withdraw at nationals that show that she was in control of our own decision making and career. It was very emotional for all of them especially the coaches and the parents. They saw Anna skate not feeling well in the SP and they were all shaken by by that like millions of us figure skating fans were. That girl looks very delicate and breakable but she is tough as nails every bit as much as a hockey player. Remember Anna overcame a broken leg about 3 years ago and then picked up right where she left off and worked so hard to get her skating back to the previous level then went on to greatness a couple years after that. That's toughness that's guts that's heart..

And for all the people questioning Annas heroic performance at nationals to herself I'm sure she's thinking she's not feeling well but she can still go and that's why she went. On your has been at TT for many many years and she seen all the greats come up there like Yulia Zhenya and Alina plus Sasha and Aliona. Anna saw Anna skate great at euros and olympics with a broken foot. That was very heroic of Zhenya. As things turned out Zhenya missed worlds that year which she probably would have won her 3rd straight world title because her foot was still bothering her. No way would Anna pull out of Rusnats because she was running a slight temperature and had pneumonia or whatever it was 6 weeks earlier. After seeing what Zhenya went through 3 years ago no way would Anna pull out of national's. If she did she would never be able to look Zhenya in the eye again.

On a side note If Anna was in that health condition at an ISU event she probably would not have been allowed to skate the short program running a temperature coming off pneumonia 6 weeks earlier. But she was at Russian nationals on her home turf as the to time to time to time defending Russian ladies national champion. And I could throw her weight around there and kind of control her own situation against the withdrawing wishes of the adults.

EG just had 2 phenoms shockingly leave her this year for PA. It was 2 daggers to the heart and she was very embarrassed and crushed by it. Does anybody really think that Anya would be okay with her coach if she forced her withdraw? I didn't think so. This Anna and Kamila situation is very tricky and very like much like the Zhenya and Alina situation in 2017 and 2018 with Kamila nipping at Anna's heels the way Alina was with Zhenya. Eteri
needs to handle this situation with Anya and KV just right. She can not afford any more of her great skaters leaving her.

I hope when all the skaters left Siberia and flew back to their respective training facilities that they are monitored closely with their health and maybe those who have had covied or pneumonia should self quarantine for 10 days or 2 weeks. What do you think of that?

First of all, actually America is a place where people ARE refusing to wear masks and follow proper protocol. At certain rallies and marches (I don't want this to get political but this is taken place against that backdrop and landscape), almost no one wore a mask or complied with protocol. There have been places (college campuses, beaches, large family gatherings etc) where people have partied maskless leading to COVID outbreaks. I certainly would not use that as an example of people following guidelines. Also, in many cases, there are examples of countries NOT following their countries "medical people", as you put it, professional recommendations. It's hard to be able to "see this out" when your recommendations and guidelines are NOT adhered to.

Second of all, I'm the one that used the argument that Anna (and Sasha) witnessed what Evgenia went through during the Olympic season and partially because of that this has become normalized. That was my argument. (I suggest rereading my comments.) I used it to defend Anna and say you can't single her out when there are numerous examples of skating through serious ailments and Anna (and Sasha) would have seen them up close. And they made an impression on them, undoubtedly. (As a side note, we don't actually know if Evgenia thinks skating through a broken foot at Rostelecom was worth it. Evgenia also withdrew from nationals that year so I doubt she would blame Anna for doing the same same. I certainly think Anna would look Evgenia in the eye for doing the same thing, in this case withdrawing and that (2018) was a more crucial year, as it was the Olympic year. This year we don't even know if Worlds is happening. Do you also think Aliona can't look Evgenia in the eye? How silly.)

Thirdly, Anna herself said she did NOT know if she could do it.

Finally, we'll address the departure of Sasha and Aliona. First of all, Anna is NOT them. Second of all, Plushy despite knowing all this DID take actions, although I think not enough. He DID pull Aliona from RusNats despite her just having arrived to his rink. He didn't cater to her wishes, even though by your logic he clearly should have. Keep in mind too that allegedly one reason she left was because she couldn't get her 3A back at Eteri's rink. Well, she still doesn't have it back (no fault of her own, I might add just continuous bad circumstances) and he STILL pulled her from RusNats. He ALSO got Sasha to limit her program content. Despite knowing that Sasha herself said she left Eteri's rink because they limited her quads, he coached Sasha (due to injury but nonetheless) to limit her program to "just" two quads. I believe even with injury, Sasha would have still wanted to do more.

A coach that caters to their students wishes without making decisions and taking responsibility for their skater's well-being is NOT a good coach. (That applies to ALL coaches.) If Eteri did not withdraw Anna BECAUSE she's afraid of Anna leaving then she ISN'T a good coach for Anna (or anyone). (If Eteri didn't withdraw Anna because, with the medical information she had available, she believed it was "safe" for Anna to compete here and she would not endanger her health further, that is a different story.)

 

[chasingneverland]

These hard feelings can be directed against all federations anywhere in the world, where that sport is nationally important, bringing medals and with them money and profits. Federations that don't act like slave drivers are few and far between. In fact, only where that sport is about as important as playing hide and seek in the backyard. Please, I hope I don't need to repeat all the examples, up to the past criminal gymnastics cases. International federations are not better at all. All their decisions and actions are powerplay. Sports can't be better than life around it.
And yes - I feel with you about many actions of RusFed. But that's only because we try to get all info and root for sportsmen that are being mistreated. Imagine you and I were fans of some UK Paralympic sportsmen...

This. It definitely isn't limited to Russia or figure skating for that matter.

 

[Fluture]

Because I can't imagine, that even when I was a 16 year old I would have made such a decision.

Look, I agree with you on many of your points but here is where I draw the line. You deliberately choose to blame a 16 year old girl who was brought up in an environment that strictly and repeatedly equals a personˋs worth to how well they do in a competitive setting. An environment where skating with a fever and risking your health is praised by your own coaches. Where they proudly declare that yes,"sport = OVERCOMING“ after you skated with an illness that could have lasting impacts on your health, nevermind that the chances of Anna collapsing halfway through her program were about as high as her succeeding. Where skaters are being pushed, consistently and repeatedly, to skate and compete on broken bones and other serious injuries, by the hypercompetitive culture around them.

Anna knows she is skating on borrowed time. By this time next year, she will be 17 years old —the traditional age for a Russian ladies skater to experience the first effects of this continuous overtraining on their bodies. There will also already be the next crop of fresh junior skaters designed to replace her and the others. If she’s lucky, she will still make it to the Olympics. However, times have changed a lot since the last cycles, the field is a lot more competitive. Due to that, as well as the pandemic that artificially shortened her seasons, she has not yet had the opportunity to build the kind of reputation someone like Evgenia had last time. If she’s unable to participate in the Nats, what do you think will be the chance she’ll be given a spot for the Euros/OG team regardless? By winning Nationals three times in a row she has about the most solid trackrecord you could ask for, it’s all she can do to establish herself as the most solid candidate in the eyes of RusFed.

So, of course, she’ll want to compete, of course she’ll not think of anything else. Because this is her life! Skating‘s been her life (and the life of all of those kids) for as long as she can remember and she KNOWS she has exactly one shot at fulfilling her dreams. One shot for something you dedicated more than a decade of your life to, something you endured pain, blood and tears for.

But sure. We can blame a 16 year old child for making short-sighted decisions when that said 16 year old is merely trying to survive in the highly toxic environment that ladies, and especially Russian ladies figure skating, is at the moment, and has been raised to think that there never, ever is a line between heroism and stupidity, that "overcoming yourself“ is the greatest deed of all, no matter the consequences.

Good for you if you think you wouldn’t have made that decision in Anna‘s circumstances. I, however, can only say that in my eyes, it is not only an unfair but also a very dangerous thing to blame the child instead of the adults.

 

[chasingneverland]

In his/her lament that this thread brings out the worst in him/her.

It brings out the worst in me, too It seems like most of the posts that dominate this thread are about

(a) which Russian lady skater we hate the most;
(b) which Russian coach we hate the most;
(c) which Russian judges, Russian federation officials, and Russian journalists we hate the most (all of them); or
(d) which Golden Skate posters we hate the most.

It wears on my good humor. I try not to read this thread at all, but somehow I am drawn to it, rather as a pathologist is drawn to a disease.

The biggest issue is there is a tendency to view things as very "black and white".

(a) it's all for or against whichever Russian lady skater we're discussing currently - they can do no right or they can do no wrong without realizing that all have strengths and flaws;
(b) It's all for or against whichever Russian coach we're discussing currently - it's either they're the best coach or the devil incarnate/an incompetent geriatric, apparently;
(c) it's that they must all hate points (a) and (b) or that they must all love (a) and (b) - it's either a conspiracy against them or they're being given gifts;
(d) it's a certain poster must be all right or all wrong haha - although here at least an ignore button comes in handy hahah

Basically it's an inability to concede points and meet people in the middle.

 

[skatesofgold]

You're spinning your own story now. I remember playing sports in high school, nowhere close to the commitment and level of an Olympic hopeful, but I wanted to compete with injuries and illnesses, too. Obviously I knew my parents would be upset if anything happened, but it's not a complete disregard and FU to them that I wanted to go to competitions? That's an incredibly ignorant way to look at it. Yuzu, Evgenia, and even Sasha here any many others have competed with injuries and there is certainly a level of danger to each situation but wanting to fulfill their goals doesn't mean that they're all horrible people who are giving their parents the finger.. how did you even come to this conclusion?

I never missed a gymnastics meet in middle or high school even when I had a cold. I relate to Anna not wanting to drop out of Nationals, which is a much bigger competition than any I competed in.

 

[chasingneverland]

If this is taken into the debate, then well I'm sorry but it is known Britain underreports their numbers strongly (esp. not counting the cases that are not admitted to hospital at all). And I guess it's not just the Britain, it's just that it is publicly known. Also Guardian is known for their openly antirussian tone (projected BTW into articles about figure skating as well).

Yeah, that's fair. It was more to highlight all of this occurring against a backdrop that is a global pandemic where there are numerous examples of gross incompetence. Obviously not just any one country. In fact, I would STRONGLY assume the opposite is the case. So I certainly won't blame a girl for following regulations when countries and their leaders are worse. That was more my point. Not to single out any one country. Sorry that was unclear.

 

[chasingneverland]

Rusfed are not above being dodgy. They should just declare Sasha on the Worlds team. Sure it may look dodgy if they are making others compete but it is the only rational thing to do and gives Sasha the best opportunity to train without exacerbating her injuries.

They do all sorts of shady things! Declaring Sasha (who was excellent in both of her skates) is hardly crossing the line given her performance. Just do some press release declaring her excellence and hence selection for the Worlds Team.

That's the whole point though. You don't get to "choose" when you want Russia to be dodgy.

You can't want the RusFed to be dodgy here and then be upset when they are elsewhere. You can't have it both ways.

 

[silveruskate]

People do skate with leg injuries and Sasha limited the quads to only Lutzes. After the "meltdown" performance at Rostelecom she had the most to prove to the judges out of everyone. Aliona without the 3A again at Nationals wouldn't do anything here or there to influence the judges. But the narrative around Trusova is already starting to change with that clean competition. She needs that again and again to get the GOE, rising PCS, and some may say even get that uncalled Flip back.

Valieva is still in the mix and maybe the favourite, but Anna and Sasha are the biggest winners as RusFed might be rethinking their calculations. Anna does risky quads, but only 2 risky quads and can get those scores, whereas Valieva does 3 risky jumps.

 

[chasingneverland]

Anna actually didnt win everything this season. Sasha beat her in the russian cup, by a few points in the 1st tie breaker since they didnt enter the same events.

While Rostelecom was clearly a disaster for Sasha at all other competitions weve seen her at this year she has scored higher than Liza and Aliona is currently capable of. I dont see her being of the team even if she should withdraw from whatever this other qualifying competition will be. Unless both Liza and Aliona suddenly score in the 250s.

Naming only the winner for the team seems to be a decision based on the other categories more than ladies and unless she gets even more sick or injured or two other skaters can suddenly outscore her RusNats performance I dont see Sasha being replaced even if she does miss a few competitions in January or early feb to completely heal the injury from Rostelcom.

It's unfair to compare skaters across competitions as you yourself said "they didn't enter the same events."

 

[chasingneverland]

Very interesting. I found his words at the end that "judges like clean and stable skating" particulary interesting. And I do think that this is the way Sasha must go to earn the judges hearts. If she has more fabulous skates like this, I am sure that her GOE and PCS will go up.

I agree with this.

 

[chasingneverland]

Ahh ok that makes me feel a bit better for Sasha.

So hopefully if she skips whatever nonsense they hold, they'll still send her if all they've got are lower BV skaters left to make up the other two spots.

Yeah exactly. People need to understand this ISN'T a personal slight to Sasha. In fact, I'm sure she's already pencilled in for that spot.

EDIT: If fact, other than Anna, I think Sasha did the most at RusNats to help her case. Arguably maybe even more than Anna as Anna was already thought of as senior 1 (in the absence of Aliona.)

 

[Greengemmonster]

That's the whole point though. You don't get to "choose" when you want Russia to be dodgy.

You can't want the RusFed to be dodgy here and then be upset when they are elsewhere. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe I've ever personally expressed a preference of when I want Rusfed to be dodgy or to favour a particular skater. Merely that they are as dodgy as heck and in this case if they want skating dominance then it would be sensible to act on that shadiness and declare Sasha on the World's team.

 

[chasingneverland]

Look, I agree with you on many of your points but here is where I draw the line. You deliberately choose to blame a 16 year old girl who was brought up in an environment that strictly and repeatedly equals a personˋs worth to how well they do in a competitive setting. An environment where skating with a fever and risking your health is praised by your own coaches. Where they proudly declare that yes,"sport = OVERCOMING“ after you skated with an illness that could have lasting impacts on your health, nevermind that the chances of Anna collapsing halfway through her program were about as high as her succeeding. Where skaters are being pushed, consistently and repeatedly, to skate and compete on broken bones and other serious injuries, by the hypercompetitive culture around them.

Anna knows she is skating on borrowed time. By this time next year, she will be 17 years old —the traditional age for a Russian ladies skater to experience the first effects of this continuous overtraining on their bodies. There will also already be the next crop of fresh junior skaters designed to replace her and the others. If she’s lucky, she will still make it to the Olympics. However, times have changed a lot since the last cycles, the field is a lot more competitive. Due to that, as well as the pandemic that artificially shortened her seasons, she has not yet had the opportunity to build the kind of reputation someone like Evgenia had last time. If she’s unable to participate in the Nats, what do you think will be the chance she’ll be given a spot for the Euros/OG team regardless? By winning Nationals three times in a row she has about the most solid trackrecord you could ask for, it’s all she can do to establish herself as the most solid candidate in the eyes of RusFed.

So, of course, she’ll want to compete, of course she’ll not think of anything else. Because this is her life! Skating‘s been her life (and the life of all of those kids) for as long as she can remember and she KNOWS she has exactly one shot at fulfilling her dreams. One shot for something you dedicated more than a decade of your life to, something you endured pain, blood and tears for.

But sure. We can blame a 16 year old child for making short-sighted decisions when that said 16 year old is merely trying to survive in the highly toxic environment that ladies, and especially Russian ladies figure skating, is at the moment, and has been raised to think that there never, ever is a line between heroism and stupidity, that "overcoming yourself“ is the greatest deed of all, no matter the consequences.

Good for you if you think you wouldn’t have made that decision in Anna‘s circumstances. I, however, can only say that in my eyes, it is not only an unfair but also a very dangerous thing to blame the child instead of the adults.

This!!!! Thanks for putting so well what I've been trying to say.

 

[chasingneverland]

I don't believe I've ever personally expressed a preference of when I want Rusfed to be dodgy or to favour a particular skater. Merely that they are as dodgy as heck and in this case if they want skating dominance then it would be sensible to act on that shadiness and declare Sasha on the World's team.

That IS expressing a preference of when you want RusFed to be dodgy. You literally said you wanted them to act on that shadiness and add Sasha to the World's team

 

[Scott512]

Poor Anna. Does she even realize the can of worms she opened by being so gutsy and so great at nationals? I guess I should add how selfish she was too. Sasha skated injured and was limited and she was great too.

There's a good bit of political inuendo going on here today instead of figure skating. Kind of makes you go hmmm. Whenever I bring up political things I get infractions or warnings. Again hmmm.