2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

Skating Skills mark doesn't cover everything skater does on ice. It covers 6 exact categories. Skating skills outside the ISU figure skating competition can be much more, but in ISU skating competition they are approximation of 6 things. In the ISU competiton, degree of knee bending is not that important part of SS, bending over is not that important part of SS, having a perfect posture is not that important part of SS, skating 'musically' or being 'artistic' is not that important part of SS, looking nice/or elegant while skating is not that important part of SS. Some judges may of course include those things to up or down their mark, but they are not the one SS mark is based on. SS is also not skaters overall blade to ice knowledge, but demonstration of it in a context of the one whole figure skating programme which includes many of required elements. Karolina or Satoko may have the best SS in the world, if they are not able/trained enough/mentally ready to present all of them in the context of the programme (due to preparation of the jumps, too much concentration on the music or other aspects of skating programme) their mark for SS won't be the perfect one. So there is a big difference to judge SS in a vacuum and in a context (defined by ISU) of one skating programme in one exact competition. And we can look at different judging sheets of different competition to see there is no really much disagreement about it topic:

Also concentration on harder elements. I am willing to believe that those mentioned, when focusing only on skating skills, they perform extraordinary. But if they have to gain the speed for a harder jump and skate through the whole length of the ice in one posture just focused on the taking off than of course the performance is losing (and in such case it is losing several times during the whole program).

 

[zounger]

See? Even Wikipedia praises them both. :yes:



I understand what you are saying. But that sentence struck me as funny.

This is a skating contest. It's like saying, football skills are only one aspect of playing football. Running fast is only one aspect of the 100 meter.

I wish they would find a more precise term than "skating skills," which seems like it covers everything a skater does on the ice. No wonder there is so much disagreement about the term.

That’s true skating is all about skating And skills. The problem is Alina’s are not bad or not worst than others.

 

[flanker]

But what about football without Ronaldinho? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dBz4dTZocg

OK, but that's tool, not the purpose

I would like to translate this once, it's the same about hockey, when the "strategy" is doing everything but scoring goals (that's just backup strategy and he says "but I don't wanna burden boys with that" ).

 

[Mathman]

But it flies in the face of what I'm saying and the way you structured your sentence you made it sound like your view was supported by the rulebook, and that the judges' was too, but in reality, your view is supported by the judges and you go back to the rulebook and try to interpret it in the way the judges do.

Myself, I look at it like legal precedent. There is the written law. And then there is the body of case law where different judges have interpreted and applied the law in particular cases, sometimes with dissenting opinions. Both work together to provide standards that govern society. Either way -- looking at the written law and then at the way acrual judges have interpreted and applied it, or looking at the judges decisions first to shed light on the bare words of the law -- I think both provide insight.

It's also the point Blades is making. He and Joe Inman both feel their interpretation of what's written is correct...:

To me, "correct" is a slippery word. But I did want to mention that Blade of Passion really has communicated a lot of his ideas about figure skating judging to the ISU, and officials such as Alexander Lakernik have publicly acknowledged his contributions by name (Blades' real name,that is, lol.)

As for Joe Inman, I assume you are referring to the infamous email that he sent to other judges regarding Plushenko's Transitions scores? (Plushenko had joked, about Brian Joubert, "Why does Joubert get such high scores in Transitions? He does the same transitions as I do -- none." Inman wrote irately that Plushenko told the flat-out truth, and that judges as a whole wer not marking the Transitions component with any regard to what the skaters actually did on the ice.

In general, though, Inman brings his own experiences and viewpoint to figure skating. In real life he is a pianist and piano teacher (and judge of piano-playing contests), as well as being a former pairs skater. He consistently places heavy weight on a skater's musicality and musical interpretation skills. expecting the choeography to match the intent and phrasing of the music, etc.

 

[Mathman]

Skating Skills mark doesn't cover everything skater does on ice.

That is my complaint. The ISU uses the term "Skating Skills" in a different way than the normal, everyday dictionary definition thqt would pop into the minds of most people. No wonder there is confusion.

Good example with football skills. Because sometimes to me the attitude of people towards FS is as if in football it was more about dodges, passes and acting skills (say hello to Neymar) than about scoring goals.

To me, scoring goals IS a "football skill" ("flopping" is not). To raise the question, which is better "Football Skills" or "Scoring Goals" is a weird use of words, to me. "Which is better, being a good skater or landing quads?" Why isn't "landing quads" regarded as part of "being a good skater?"

Anyway, back to Russian ladies ...

 

[lopsilceci]

To those people who put knees, edges, pointed toes and dancer posture at the top of the list of what truly matters in figure skating and what they most want to see: Maybe stick to watching ice dance? I'm sure you'll be happier

 

[dunffvanstorn]

This is nothing but "I'm an expert and you are not" kind of arguing. Doesn't work for me. You have no credit to lecture people on how much they "should watch to understand".



Skating skills and posture became the tool used on daily basis against Alina since she started to defeat "meritorious queens" of figure skating, like "yes, she may have 3Lz-3Lo, but she can't keep her posture/she is not fluid/blahblah". and while people who made those complaints persistently (from whom you have just took the baton), they also frequently started their comments with "I'm no hating on Alina, but..." During the years among the figure skating fans I became thick-skinned against this type of comments, that always go for finding something negative, only the negative and forever negative, while always the same names are presented as paragons of how figure skating should look like. That's why I talk now as I talk (and maybe sometimes I oppose everything what the same people with very similar comments object, even if it wasn't in that particular comment, because, to be honest, in general the rhetoric is always the same). At the beginning I left some space for doubts, but not now, it's always the same. At teh end it always shows it's nothing but the matter of taste of that particular person, who just likes particular styles (done by particular coaches - that's why some skaters are pardoned immediately after they change for more preferred coach ).

So, properly speaking. Alina's skating skills perfectly fit the rules, they fulfill required standards and they look great and attractive in motion for me. She accelerates, she keeps the rhythm, she has fluid moves, uses edges, one foot skating, there and back again If people criticize that she doesn't hold positions longer, well, if keeping positions longer would be evaluated as high as fulfilling the program with content (or with nonsense, as some here try to prove), than I bet we would see more Inna Bauers instead of Alina Bauers, but I don't complain about that

Of other skaters I would say that Kamila's and Kaori's skating skills have the same or higher level, Carolina is on par (with inferior technical content, however). Though now I go heretic mode, I don't consider Ashley Wagner, Yuna Kim and many other frequently mentioned skaters on higher level of skating skills. To me that's a matter of style, not the matter of quality.

It's not that anything couldn't be better (limit is always only what is physically possible). It's just after the three years sincwe Alina got on the top I'm truly annoyed with any other "I'm Alina fan, but...", while, as I often say, I've never saw that partcular person who made that comment present anywhere near when Alina did/won something great. Not a smallest sign of appreciation (of course when I object that, some of them make the step "I never denied she was great" or something similar to what you just did, but I always have hard times to believe in honesty of it). The same applies to Anna and particularly to Daniil's work. Those are the names that somehow are allowed to criticize much more harshly and frequently than anybody else. With that I definitely don't say that everything what Daniil did was a masterpiece, but when two or three recent threads with completely different topic turn into "Daniil's choreos are such a shame", I think that shows a lot about people's attitude.

P.S: I promise my following comments will be much shorter

Well, if you want to convince yourself of what you’re saying, there’s nothing I can say that’ll make you think otherwise. You can defend whoever you want to, and I can have my opinion, that will totally not change because you made a passionate text.

If people keep saying those things about Alina it’s because these problems are not addressed by her coaches and she doesn’t seem to improve on them from one season to the other. Fans insist on things and, sometimes, these things become more well known to the judges and the general public, and more fair competitions can happen because of this.

And if you’re talking about the coaching changes, you can keep busy looking for the times when I started liking one skater more or less because of their coach, it doesn’t make a difference to me.

Let’s talk about the time after test skates when I came to this forum to praise Alina and say she was the absolute best at Test Skates 2019. Because I think she was. Then, Kostornaia got the triple axel and became a judges favorite, but until Aliona’s triple axel, Alina still was a huge contender last season and she had my favorite programs so far. And that’s a HUGE compliment, considering I don’t like Daniil’s choreography.

But guess what, by your standards, I’m an Alina hater. Can I ask you something, try to say who’s my favorite skater based on what I write here, I really doubt you’ll be correct.

 

[zounger]

@dunffvanstron what if you liked Alina’s programs even if you don’t like Gleikhengauz choreography because Alina actually improved? She has the right to improve too right?

 

[dunffvanstorn]

To those people who put knees, edges, pointed toes and dancer posture at the top of the list of what truly matters in figure skating and what they most want to see: Maybe stick to watching ice dance? I'm sure you'll be happier

Maybe we should enjoy skaters who **guess what** actually exist and have both:

1. Good skating skills
2. Good AND hard jumps
3. Good interpretation
4. Good dancing qualities

- Aliona Kostornaia
- Kamila Valieva
- Sofia Akatieva
(All Eteri girls until now)

Outside Russia:
- Rika Kihira
- Rika still lack that extra shine, but I think I can leave them here.

Retired skaters:
- Mao Asada
- Carolina Kostner
- Yuna Kim
- Sasha Cohen (who actually had a quad sal, not quite known and consistent enough to be a “jumper”, but I think she could be in this list).


**Skaters that are predominantly great jumpers (current and retired):

1. Alessandra Trusova
2. Veronika Zhilina
3. Tonya Harding
4. Midori Ito
5. Alina Zagitova (during her first senior season - before the quad era, although she’s improved a lot in interpretation last season and will be in another list below)
6. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

**Skaters that are lovely to watch and interpret marvelously, but that don’t have the best skating skills and jumping technique:
1. Evgenia Medvedeva
2. Anna Shcherbakova

**Skaters that are known as “artistic” skaters, and not excellent jumpers per se - good skating skills and good interpretation:
- Satoko Miyahara
- Michelle Kwan (who had good jumps, but was never considered a “jumper”)
- Eunsoo Lim (I’m not quite sure if Eunsoo fits in here, but I’ll leave her here anyway

**Skaters that land hard jumps and that have good interpretation, but lack in some aspects of skating skills and maybe don’t have the best jumping technique, but still are considered good jumpers:
1. Alina Zagitova (from 2019 to now)
2. Evgenia Medvedeva (repeated, because if we don’t consider her flutz, her other jumps are actually quite good lately, and her skating skills, although improved, are not superb yet - from 2019 to now)
3. Anna Shcherbakova (repeated again, because, even if her technique is not ideal, we can’t say the girl is not a good jumper)

**Skaters that still need work done in one of the four: skating skills, interpretation, jumping and dancing skills, but that could be legends or become even better than they already are:

1. Alysa Liu (all of the points, but at least she has charisma and is really cute)
2. Anna Shcherbakova - skating skills, pointing toes and jump technique (pre-rotation, full blade assist and lutz edge)
3. Evgenia Medvedeva - skating skills (although improved a lot), harder jump elements, lutz edge
4. Alina Zagitova - skating skills, posture, regain correct lutz edge, pre-rotation and underrotation sometimes are troublesome, mainly in her -loop combo.
5. Alexandra Trusova - skating skills, interpretation and dancing/choreography. Sasha has charisma and strength, but needs to up her game if she wants a medal at Beijing
6. Rika Kihira - interpretation (although with her programs last season it would be hard for anyone to interpret anyways - she needs that extra shine), and URGENTLY more speed.
7. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
8. Young You

** Good overall skaters, that won’t get much better than they are because of their lack of jumping difficulty and low potential to increase difficulty:
1. Mariah Bell
2. Kaori Sakamoto
3. Kseniia Sinitsyna (could still change)

And, now, I’ll be getting some popcorn for the drama following.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

@dunffvanstron what if you liked Alina’s programs even if you don’t like Gleikhengauz choreography because Alina actually improved? She has the right to improve too right?

Of course, that’s exactly what I meant but couldn’t put into words. It’s such a petty that Alina decided to retire when she was just starting to show her entire capacity. And her programs were good too, Daniil did a good job with them last season. Carmen and POTO were sufferable to me, but Cleopatra and Me Voy (even with the screaming nobody likes but that don’t bother me) were great programs. Alina was the most distinguished russian skater last season, so adult and beautiful, improved, it’s so sad...


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

 

[zounger]

Regain correct lutz edge?

 

[zounger]

Retired?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Skating Skills mark doesn't cover everything skater does on ice. It covers 6 exact categories. Skating skills outside the ISU figure skating competition can be much more, but in ISU skating competition they are approximation of 6 things. In the ISU competiton, degree of knee bending is not that important part of SS, bending over is not that important part of SS, having a perfect posture is not that important part of SS

This is NOT true. Can you stop acting like the mere summaries of the components on paper are the sole qualifiers of how they are judged? Skating is very complex and the rules don't describe the entirety of what skating is and how to score it. The "public" rules themselves are extremely vague about how the components should be scored anyway, there's actually no real qualification in the rules about what constitutes amazing skating skills or choreography or performance.

Knee bend and posture themselves are not exactly qualifiers of skating skills, but they are signs of problems in the basic skating. If someone isn't showing good knee bend when stroking, then they are inherently not getting deep and flowing edges, because you MUST bend your knees in skating to make these things happens. The knees are the keys. Similarly, someone who is properly utilizing their blades and getting maximum power out of the blade from the lower body, will inherently have a decent posture. There's a difference in pushing solely from the legs and feet, as compared to pumping with your back, and that's an aspect of skating skill.

Touching on a topic from earlier too, I'm not sure why some people can't just accept that judges aren't scoring things right. Look, there's barely any differentiation on the components with the scores given out. Logically, that doesn't make sense. Every skater doesn't have very close to the same level of Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation in every program they skate. How could that be? People have different strengths and some programs are better than others. Yet most judges mark each component very close to each other, no matter what. That alone says something is wrong.

 

[SkateSkates]

Maybe we should enjoy skaters who **guess what** actually exist and have both:

And, now, I’ll be getting some popcorn for the drama following.

Great post! With solid and specific arguments for each point that I agree with for the most part

 

[zounger]

Touching on a topic from earlier too, I'm not sure why some people can't just accept that judges aren't scoring things right. Look, there's barely any differentiation on the components with the scores given out. Logically, that doesn't make sense. Every skater doesn't have very close to the same level of Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation in every program they skate. How could that be? People have different strengths and some programs are better than others. Yet most judges mark each component very close to each other, no matter what. That alone says something is wrong.

Agree on that part generally and I don’t even dismiss that people on this forum (or outside) may judge better that official judges. I don’t agree generally on the Alina has worse skating skills that the current top skaters. Watching their warm ups and practices recently in Turin I didn’t noticed something like that.

 

[Vemvane]

As someone who is very new to figure skating, and who knows next to nothing about the technical aspects, I just want to say that this discussion is very interesting and educational, but keeps straying from Russian ladies to more general issues about skating technique, as well as scoring. Would it perhaps be possible to move it to a new thread, where the debate can continue, while this thread stays somewhat more on topic?

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to detailed discussions of the strengths and weaknesses of the current Russian ladies skaters, preferably beyond those on the national team, as they get a lot of focus, and while rewatching the last Russian Nationals, I realised that there are so many amazing female skaters there, and I would really like to know more about them. Ksenia Sinitsyna is clearly an up-and-coming young skater right now, and Anna Frolova and Valeria Shulskaya also caught my eye, but, frankly, I would be grateful for any discussion of the ladies at Russian Nationals outside the top four.

 

[Skatesocs]

To those people who put knees, edges, pointed toes and dancer posture at the top of the list of what truly matters in figure skating and what they most want to see: Maybe stick to watching ice dance? I'm sure you'll be happier

We can watch them in some currently competing ladies too

 

[Baron Vladimir]

As for Joe Inman, I assume you are referring to the infamous email that he sent to other judges regarding Plushenko's Transitions scores? (Plushenko had joked, about Brian Joubert, "Why does Joubert get such high scores in Transitions? He does the same transitions as I do -- none." Inman wrote irately that Plushenko told the flat-out truth, and that judges as a whole wer not marking the Transitions component with any regard to what the skaters actually did on the ice.

In general, though, Inman brings his own experiences and viewpoint to figure skating. In real life he is a pianist and piano teacher (and judge of piano-playing contests), as well as being a former pairs skater. He consistently places heavy weight on a skater's musicality and musical interpretation skills. expecting the choeography to match the intent and phrasing of the music, etc.

Joe Inman also said while being a guest in one TSL episode that Russian single skaters at last Olympic didn't have musicality at all in their olympic programmes, and he adressed that opinion on Dimitri Aliev and Mikael Kolyada. So, i don't find Inman opinion objective at all. He would be a perfect judge for 6.0 era tho where subjective preconceptions matter.

 

[Skatesocs]

Myself, I look at it like legal precedent.

To me, "correct" is a slippery word. But I did want to mention that Blade of Passion really has communicated a lot of his ideas about figure skating judging to the ISU, and officials such as Alexander Lakernik have publicly acknowledged his contributions by name (Blades' real name,that is, lol.)

I do not disagree with what you're saying, and yes "correct" is slippery. Perhaps an "interpretation based on warring philosophies of skating" is better. Blades of Passion mentioned his view is based on the history of the sport, which up until 2007 worlds or so (with those truly outstanding LPs of Yuna Kim and Stephane Lambiel, and the fantastic SPs from Asada and again Kim) really has been about combining a wide range of skill towards greater artistic purpose. Since then it's been rare, and he doesn't want it to be. This is his philosophy of where skating should be, the "better" interpretation of the rules.

OTOH, we have how the judges are currently interpreting the rules - literally, and that leads to the programs and scores we see now. I personally acknowledge that I don't mind seeing jumping feats, but currently I usually can only do that with men's skating. The philosophy is, emphasis on athletic aspects, but not qualitatively.

Which is *better* or more useful?

As for Joe Inman, Baron Vladimir brought him up so I inserted him here. Baron Vladimir also liked your post, and I want to say to him how you and I and Blades seemingly get insight vs how he gets insight aren't the same He justifies scores simply by looking at them and nothing more, no understanding of philosophy behind it. We understand what we want, see what we are getting. Blades apparently even tries to change it.

 

[Scott512]

Who is people, the judges or in this forum you mean? I haven’t heard anything good about Alina here only about Plushenko.

It will never end Z. It's like a cat chasing its tail.