2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Jontor]

I think that only the first clean landing matters, and this belongs to Sasha. If you have a desire to emphasize the special achievements of Anna, why not do it correctly). For example, the fact that Anna was the first among women to try to perform 4 Lz . Alas, the attempt was unsuccessful. In this case, do not have anything further to elaborate.

I don't have the desire to emphasize anything. I am just stating what is officially true. Anna's 4Lz at Lombardia was judged fully rotated and therefore it is the first 4Lz at seniors. But as I said, Sasha's 4Lz at Juniors was of course before that. I believe it was at JGP Armenia in 2018.

 

[Mathman]

Raised the age limit to what? 18? Yeah I didn't think so.

One-line zingers aside, the question of age limits in figure skating does have an interesting history. Sonia Henie won the Norwegian championship at age 9 and competed in the Olympics at age 10. Somewhere along the line they set 12 as the age limit. I don't know exactly why they chose 12, or if there was any controversy or dissenting opinion about the rule at the time.

Marina Cherkasova medalled in pairs at 1978 Europeans at age 12. (She was 138 cm. tall -- 4'6") She and her older and bigger partner set all kinds of records for spectacular twists and throws until she grew a a little bigger a few years later.).

It was in 1996 that the change was made to the current rule of 15 by July 1st. But skaters who were already in the pipeline as seniors were grandfathered in. That was how Tara Lipinski was allowed to compete in -- and win -- 1997 Worlds.

From 1996 to 2000 they also had the exception for medallists at Junior Worlds, which allowed Sarah Hughes to compete at senior worlds -- and medal -- at 14.

For a few years the 15 rule only applied to ISU championships, but 14-year-olds were allowed to compete in other senior events such at the Grand Prix. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada beat the entire eventual 2006 Olympic podium, Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, on the Grand Prix, but could not go to the Olympics or Worlds that year (her birthday is in September).

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

 

[Amei]

One-line zingers aside, the history of age limits in figure skating does have an interesting history. Sonia Henie won the Norwegian championship at age 9 and competed in the Olympics at age 10. Somewhere along the line they set 12 as the age limit. I don't know exactly why they chose 12, or if there was any controversy or dissenting opinion about the rule at the time.

Marina Cherkasova medalled in pairs at 1978 Europeans at age 12. (She was 138 cm. tall -- 4'6") She and her older and bigger partner set all kinds of records for spectacular twists and throws until she grew a a little bigger a few years later.).

It was in 1996 that the change was made to the current rule of 15 by July 1st. But skaters who were already in the pipeline as seniors were grandfathered in. That was how Tara Lipinski was allowed to compete in -- and win -- 1997 Worlds.

From 1996 to 2000 they also had the exception for medallists at Junior Worlds, which allowed Sarah Hughes to compete at senior worlds -- and medal -- at 14.

For a few years the 15 rule only applied to ISU championships, but 14-year-olds were allowed to compete in other senior events such at the Grand Prix. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada beat the whole eventual 2006 Olympic podium, Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, on the Grand Prix, but could not go to the Olympics or Worlds that year.

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

Love this post. I believe 14 years olds were still able to compete on the GP series until recently as Lipnitskaia competed there in the 2012-2013 season.

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

I disagree with you a bit here; from what I've read while yes there are some that voice the "protect the children" angle, for the most part that I read the argument for an age-increase is that every year there seems to be a new, young phenom that comes in, wins and fades once they go through puberty.

Perhaps a compromise could be reached that can borrow from the past a bit? All skaters stay in the junior ranks until they are 18, however if they have won a Jr. Worlds then at 15 years old they can turn senior. That probably still wouldn't satisfy most people though...

 

[Jontor]

One-line zingers aside, the history of age limits in figure skating does have an interesting history. Sonia Henie won the Norwegian championship at age 9 and competed in the Olympics at age 10. Somewhere along the line they set 12 as the age limit. I don't know exactly why they chose 12, or if there was any controversy or dissenting opinion about the rule at the time.

Marina Cherkasova medalled in pairs at 1978 Europeans at age 12. (She was 138 cm. tall -- 4'6") She and her older and bigger partner set all kinds of records for spectacular twists and throws until she grew a a little bigger a few years later.).

It was in 1996 that the change was made to the current rule of 15 by July 1st. But skaters who were already in the pipeline as seniors were grandfathered in. That was how Tara Lipinski was allowed to compete in -- and win -- 1997 Worlds.

From 1996 to 2000 they also had the exception for medallists at Junior Worlds, which allowed Sarah Hughes to compete at senior worlds -- and medal -- at 14.

For a few years the 15 rule only applied to ISU championships, but 14-year-olds were allowed to compete in other senior events such at the Grand Prix. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada beat the whole eventual 2006 Olympic podium, Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, on the Grand Prix, but could not go to the Olympics or Worlds that year.

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

Didn't also Denise Biellmann use to compete at a very young age at Europeans and Worlds in the 70s?

 

[lopsilceci]

Seriously why are people getting so caught up about these awards. Do they even get a trophy or anything?

I think it's fairly reasonable that fans are angry about the awards when they're organized by ISU itself, the people responsible for regulating the sport of figure skating. It's not some random skating magazine awards, it's the ISU Awards.
We might not take them seriously now, but the ISU clearly does and is doing what they can to make them a thing, so it makes sense for fans to question their choices and ask for at least a little bit of credibility and transparency.

 

[Mathman]

Didn't also Denise Biellmann use to compete at a very young age at Europeans and Worlds in the 70s?

I just looked it up. She competed at Europeans at 14 and again at 15. She finished second in the free skate the first time, and she won the free skate the second time, being the first lady to land a triple Lutz and the first to receive a 6.0 in technical merit.

She wasn't so good at figures, though, and finished off the podium. I don't know if there is a lesson about age and maturity somewhere in there or not.

 

[Mathman]

For the most part I read the argument for an age-increase is that every year there seems to be a new, young phenom that comes in, wins and fades once they go through puberty.

Personally I have mixed feelings about this side of the argument, though. Suppose a skater is the best in the world at 13. She goes to the world championship and wins.

The next year she is taller and heavier. She is not the best in the world any more. She goes to worlds and loses (or doesn't make the team).

I think someone could say, well, that's sports. There is no guarantee that last year's winner will be next years winner.

 

[Jontor]

Personally I have mixed feelings about this side of the argument, though. Suppose a skater is the best in the world at 13. She goes to the world championship and wins.

The next year she is taller and heavier. She is not the best in the world any more. She goes to worlds and loses (or doesn't make the team).

I think someone could say, well, that's sports. There is no guarantee that last year's winner will be next years winner.

I think the problem though is that when girls go through puberty, and they begin to have difficulties and needs to re-learn jumps, the main problem is that mostly they also lose motivation and that is why they quit.

My all time favourite skater is Maria Butyrskaya. She was the one that brought me into figure skating. But looking at her record it is amazing that she kept going. She went to her first Europeans when she was 20. Won her first European medal when she was 23. She was the first Russian to win the Worlds when she was 26. She kept going till she was 29. The medalists around her were almost always young teenagers.
Maria has always said in interviews that there were always young 14-15 year old girls that came (and went), but she needed to focus on herself and believe in herself.

I think everyone has the same chance as Butyrskaya. Don't give up. That's why I nowadays really enjoy Tuktamysheva. She is still there. She is still going. And she had somewhat of a comeback last season when she managed to medal at the GPF. Anything can happen.

So figure skating doesn't necessarily have to be only about young girls, it can also be about grown up women with loads of motivation.

 

[Scott512]

One-line zingers aside, the question of age limits in figure skating does have an interesting history. Sonia Henie won the Norwegian championship at age 9 and competed in the Olympics at age 10. Somewhere along the line they set 12 as the age limit. I don't know exactly why they chose 12, or if there was any controversy or dissenting opinion about the rule at the time.

Marina Cherkasova medalled in pairs at 1978 Europeans at age 12. (She was 138 cm. tall -- 4'6") She and her older and bigger partner set all kinds of records for spectacular twists and throws until she grew a a little bigger a few years later.).

It was in 1996 that the change was made to the current rule of 15 by July 1st. But skaters who were already in the pipeline as seniors were grandfathered in. That was how Tara Lipinski was allowed to compete in -- and win -- 1997 Worlds.

From 1996 to 2000 they also had the exception for medallists at Junior Worlds, which allowed Sarah Hughes to compete at senior worlds -- and medal -- at 14.

For a few years the 15 rule only applied to ISU championships, but 14-year-olds were allowed to compete in other senior events such at the Grand Prix. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada beat the entire eventual 2006 Olympic podium, Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, on the Grand Prix, but could not go to the Olympics or Worlds that year (her birthday is in September).

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

You make several pertinent points. But at this point we're like cats chasing our tails. I just wish we would see some action this season.

I hope not having a season won't push Alina Evgenia and Lliza closer to retirement.

 

[lesnar001]

You make several pertinent points. But at this point we're like cats chasing our tails. I just wish we would see some action this season.

I hope not having a season won't push Alina Evgenia and Lliza closer to retirement.

I hope they would see this as a potential reason to continue skating competitively for at least another season.
Especially since the following season would nominally be the Olympic season (but who really knows at this point).

If anything, the competitive playing field may end up being more level.
We have no idea how physical growth is going to affect the skaters who are seemingly unbeatable now.
And I think this prolonged competition drought could cause motivation problems for all the skaters.
They are training - but training for what exactly?

 

[Scott512]

I hope they would see this as a potential reason to continue skating competitively for at least another season.
Especially since the following season would nominally be the Olympic season (but who really knows at this point).

If anything, the competitive playing field may end up being more level.
We have no idea how physical growth is going to affect the skaters who are seemingly unbeatable now.
And I think this prolonged competition drought could cause motivation problems for all the skaters.
They are training - but training for what exactly?

That could be the sticking point for training for what? But perhaps the Olympics a year-and-a-half away maybe that will keep them motivated.

 

[Mathman]

If anything, the competitive playing field may end up being more level.
We have no idea how physical growth is going to affect the skaters who are seemingly unbeatable now.

So many possibilities; how will it all turn out? Maybe by 2022 they will all be gone and we will be rooting for Valieva and Usacheva.

 

[GINO]

Shcherbakova was the first to land a quad Lutz at a Senior competition at Lombardia Trophy. Trusova did it one week later at the Nepela Memorial...

I think ISU knows better who was the first to land Lutz in competition.
Just look what is written at the girls bios:
- Anna(Shcherbakova has landed the quadruple Lutz and quadruple flip in competition. She missed most of the 2017/18 season after breaking her leg on a triple loop.) http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00103103.htm
- Sasha(Trusova is the first woman to have landed a quadruple Lutz in (ISU JGP 2018) and a quadruple flip (ISU GP Final 2019) in competition. She is as well the first woman to land a quadruple toeloop as well as two quadruple jumps (toeloop and Salchow) in one program in competition (at the ISU World Junior Championships 2018). She has also performed three quadruple jumps (quad Lutz, quad toe, quad toe-triple toe) at the Russian test skates in September 2019 and four quadruple jumps (Lutz, Salchow, two toeloops) at the Japan Open in October 2019.) http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00102760.htm

Also, representatives of the Guinness Book of Records check information very well and they would never give diploma to Trusova for the first Lutz if someone else did it. I think the question with first Lutz is closed

And then later at Skate America, Shcherbakova was the first to land two 4Lzs in the same competition.

True, but when Trusova land two 4Ts in one program, no one even mentioned this as a major achievement.

 

[Skuratov]

Shcherbakova was the first to land a quad Lutz at a Senior competition at Lombardia Trophy. Trusova did it one week later at the Nepela Memorial...
However, Trusova has the record for the first quad Lutz at juniors.

And then later at Skate America, Shcherbakova was the first to land a 4Lz+3T, and two 4Lzs in the same competition. I don't think Trusova has ever done that...or?

And Trusova was the First Lady who landed 3 Quads in a program At Nepela Trophy + She broke Alina's records for FP and Total Score. Two weeks later Sasha broke her own records. FS TES= 100.20 is still the current record. FS total Score: 166.62 is still the current record. She set the Total Score record (241.02) that lasted two months. At GPF she was the first lady that lands a 4F on official competition. Sasha tried 4 and 5 quads in a program, those were unsuccessful but nobody has had the courage to try.
Meanwhile, what record Anna broke or set?

 

[colormyworld240]

I do have a problem with poor skating skills and lame choreography. I was trained in classical Ballet, how can I not value these things? And I think mood-shifting programs are still very possible. The thing is, whatever, let people do the backloading they want, just don’t give the extra bonus for all the jumps. I think the current rules are mostly fine in terms of backloading.

If you have any knowledge of ballet, you would understand the composition of a pas de deux where the first half consists of slow movements and the second half with variations including many pirouettes, especially in Don Quioxte. Obviously, jumps mimic the turns. Backloading does not work for all music, but for Alina's DQ selections, I would argue that not completely backloading the jumps would have been terrible choreographically. As for lame choreography, Alina's DQ was choreographed partly by Daniil's mother and as a Bolshoi ballerina, I'm sure she was also trained in classical ballet.

There can be many arguments for backloaded programs sacrificing artistry based on layout construction, including Alina's Black Swan, Alena's Stella's Theme, Evgenia's Nocturne, Kaori's Moonlight Sonata, but Don Quixote is not one of them. Obviously backloading was done for the bonus points, but with the correct program it actually contributes to the artistry. There is just no incentive now with the rule change. It's the same if a spin or footwork were to be removed; you can still do it but I'm sure no one will.

 

[Tolstoj]

One-line zingers aside, the question of age limits in figure skating does have an interesting history. Sonia Henie won the Norwegian championship at age 9 and competed in the Olympics at age 10. Somewhere along the line they set 12 as the age limit. I don't know exactly why they chose 12, or if there was any controversy or dissenting opinion about the rule at the time.

Marina Cherkasova medalled in pairs at 1978 Europeans at age 12. (She was 138 cm. tall -- 4'6") She and her older and bigger partner set all kinds of records for spectacular twists and throws until she grew a a little bigger a few years later.).

It was in 1996 that the change was made to the current rule of 15 by July 1st. But skaters who were already in the pipeline as seniors were grandfathered in. That was how Tara Lipinski was allowed to compete in -- and win -- 1997 Worlds.

From 1996 to 2000 they also had the exception for medallists at Junior Worlds, which allowed Sarah Hughes to compete at senior worlds -- and medal -- at 14.

For a few years the 15 rule only applied to ISU championships, but 14-year-olds were allowed to compete in other senior events such at the Grand Prix. In the 2005-2006 season Mao Asada beat the entire eventual 2006 Olympic podium, Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya, on the Grand Prix, but could not go to the Olympics or Worlds that year (her birthday is in September).

The current discussion is nothing new -- certainly it is not aimed at one particular coach or another. It is a tension between, on the one hand, wanting to protect children from being thrust into the adult world prematurely, and on the other, the fact that very young girls apparently can skate better than older ladies, so why hold them back?

What I don't go along with is all the anger and righteous indignation: "If you don't support the 'protect children' view, then aha! you are a child abuser!" "If you don't want children to compete against adults, then aha!, just as i thought, you hate Eteri!"

I want to stress this cause this is only true because of lack of work on the older ladies.

With the current system in Russia is very much like strong preparation early on but then from 13 onwards the work is preservation of what you already learnt rather than improving working on new things.

This is a big argument in favor of the return of compulsory figures btw, cause if coaches aren't going to work on these things and judges act like it's all beautiful all the same when it isn't then it's time to bring those back to show who has those skills and who doesn't.

 

[Alex65]

I want to stress this cause this is only true because of lack of work on the older ladies.

With the current system in Russia is very much like strong preparation early on but then from 13 onwards the work is preservation of what you already learnt rather than improving working on new things.

This is a big argument in favor of the return of compulsory figures btw, cause if coaches aren't going to work on these things and judges act like it's all beautiful all the same when it isn't then it's time to bring those back to show who has those skills and who doesn't.

In my opinion, the desire of people to achieve perfection, constantly intervening and changing the rules, can only do more damage to the FS. It is necessary to allow this sport to go a smooth evolutionary path, give time for athletes and coaches to develop within the existing system, sometimes slightly adjusting it. And do not turn everything upside down once every 5 years just for the sake of their own preferences, no matter how reasonable they may seem ..

 

[Resa]

Have there been new program announcements in the past couple of days? Isn't it already very late to announce the music? I finally want to know!!!

 

[Scott512]

In my opinion, the desire of people to achieve perfection, constantly intervening and changing the rules, can only do more damage to the FS. It is necessary to allow this sport to go a smooth evolutionary path, give time for athletes and coaches to develop within the existing system, sometimes slightly adjusting it. And do not turn everything upside down once every 5 years just for the sake of their own preferences, no matter how reasonable they may seem ..

Very true Alex. Constantly intervening and changing the rules does more damage than good. That is the most pertinent point when a long time in this thread.

 

[Amei]

Have there been new program announcements in the past couple of days? Isn't it already very late to announce the music? I finally want to know!!!

Not that I've heard. I wonder if most are waiting to see what the ISU does with this season to decide what they do program-wise. If the ISU does have some type of season, abbreviated/shifted dates, etc. teams might be more apt to simply re-use 1 or both programs from last season and allow the skaters to focus more on elements. If the ISU does not have a season and skaters only do internal competitions within their own countries I can see teams deciding to go ahead and choreograph 2 programs and have them competition-tested internally and use them the following year for the Olympic season so the skaters are very familiar with them the whole Olympic season.