2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[TripleAxelQueens3]

There was a Twitter thread I read once (can't find it now ) that explained, with statistics, how skaters with very clear outside lutz edge are more likely to have a lip and viceversa for skaters with good flips having flutz.
Basically, it's very rare to find a skater who has both a "textbook" lutz and flip, and even more as the number of jump rotations increase.

I don't know if the ISU should try to be more strict about these details as obsessively as some fans are. Maybe it's one of those situations where you would potentially sacrifice technical development of the sport for the sake of being super strict about "correct" technique and you would end up giving out calls like candies.
In the end, the technical panel decides whether a lutz is a "real" lutz or not.

That is very true actually! I remember seeing a post on instagram detailing top ladies skaters who had never gotten edge calls and I think there were only like 3? (Kostner, Sotskova and Kihira)

 

[anonymoose_au]

Ahaha. How familiar it all is. "Sasha should only jump" or "She doesn't need anything else, let her jump." No fan of Camila will tell her "Camilla should only spin" or "She shouldn't jump quads, let her do her spins, they are incredible! "Samkrut, you are not original.
I will add. Sasha doesn't have to be as artistic as Zhenya. She just needs to be tomorrow better than she was yesterday. And do it with every new competition. And she tries to follow this path. No one has the right to refuse her this. What happens in the end remains to be seen. Because she is still so young

Took the words right out of my mouth there!

I don't get this "policing" of skaters program choices - the best example is Tarasova/Morozov when I first became a fan a number of people would talk about how boring their programs were. Yet the second they tried something a little different a huge number of people (some of them the same ones as before) were aghast. Like personally offended that T/M didn't stay in the box they had made for them in their minds.

If Aliona wants to try skating to punk music or Sasha wants to try skating to panpipes or Anna Sch to death metal who are we to say they can't or shouldn't (offensive lyrics excepted I suppose). We may not like the music, but that doesn't make the program bad automatically.

I think all skaters should be able to get out of their comfort zone and not have to worry they're going to be somehow "less" or a "joke" if they do.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Took the words right out of my mouth there!

I don't get this "policing" of skaters program choices - the best example is Tarasova/Morozov when I first became a fan a number of people would talk about how boring their programs were. Yet the second they tried something a little different a huge number of people (some of them the same ones as before) were aghast. Like personally offended that T/M didn't stay in the box they had made for them in their minds.

If Aliona wants to try skating to punk music or Sasha wants to try skating to panpipes or Anna Sch to death metal who are we to say they can't or shouldn't (offensive lyrics excepted I suppose). We may not like the music, but that doesn't make the program bad automatically.

I think all skaters should be able to get out of their comfort zone and not have to worry they're going to be somehow "less" or a "joke" if they do.

What about this song?

https://youtu.be/V83JR2IoI8k

 

[Jontor]

I was prompted to search out some clips of 60's vintage Lutz jumps with the old style curved entry. A thing of beauty that I might guess no one has jumped in many years.

I've posted this before. It's Denise Biellmann who was the first lady to do a 3Lz in the 80s. (Lutz at ca 0:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7NGdFc5k2M

It's the old style where the outside edge means that you go in one direction and then jump in the opposite direction. You don't see Lutzes like this anymore. Now, as everyone goes into the Lutz in a straight line, the whole idea of the Lutz and jumping in the opposite direction is lost.

So, in a way, you can say that everyone cheats on their Lutzes nowadays.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It is hard, I agree. But there are still skaters with textbook lutz technique like Alexia Paganini. Her 3Lz is gorgeous. And there is Veronika Zhilina who jumped 4Lz with minimal pre-rotation (however the jump was underrotated).
And guess what, Alexia receives much smaller GOE for her gorgeous 3Lz than those with horrific 3Lz technique. Reputation judging.
Edit: I read that "e" on a flip or lutz jump means 30% less BV, so I guess excessive pre-rotation on flip or lutz (more than 180 degrees for sure) should also mean 30% less BV, the skaters with unclear edge on flip or lutz should have 15% less BV and those with more than 90 degrees pre-rotation on flip or lutz - 15 % less BV.
Also - the judges are rewarding with huge GOE skaters who have jumps with small height and distance. Even though this is againts the rules. This needs to stop.

Height and distance is just one GOE bullet. There are plenty of jumps that are cleanly done with good flow, air position, creative entries, musicality that can earn good GOE.

If amplitude is the be all and end all for you, that’s ok. I know it certainly is for others too. But there are other criteria to consider, according to the rules.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

"A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

A clear forward jump will be considered downgraded. If a skater pre-rotates 180 degrees, they will be taking off facing forward, rather than backward as takeoffs for most jumps (save for axel) are. I mean technically, there's no such thing is 0 PR, but skaters with less than 179 degrees would technically not be penalized since they aren't definitely taking off facing forward.

Interesting that the ISU considers the toe loop as the most commonly cheated and yet most of the obsession surrounding pre-rotation seems to be centred around flips and lutzes.

It’s almost as if people are conflating pre rotation with actual “cheated jump takeoff” like toe axels (a la Meissner or Nguyen).

 

[Jontor]

Interesting that the ISU considers the toe loop as the most commonly cheated and yet most of the obsession surrounding pre-rotation seems to be centred around flips and lutzes.

It’s almost as if people are conflating pre rotation with actual “cheated jump takeoff” like toe axels (a la Meissner or Nguyen).

Yes, and people forget that it is impossible to pre-rotate as much on Flips and Lutzes as you have your left foot in front of you (for the usual counter-clockwise jumper).

That is also why Flips and Lutzes are more valuable than Toe-Loops, Loops and Salchows.

A reminder how the Base Values goes.

2Axel 3.30
3Toe-Loop 4.20
3Salchow 4.30
3Loop 4.90
3Flip 5.30
3Lutz 5.90

Add 40% to the Toe-Loop and you get the Lutz. That's a huge difference. And one of the factors that Lutzes are worth so much more is that you can't pre-rotate it as much.

 

[MintGreen]

It's the old style where the outside edge means that you go in one direction and then jump in the opposite direction. You don't see Lutzes like these anymore. Now, as everyone goes into the Lutz in a straight line, the whole idea of the Lutz and jumping in the opposite direction is lost.

So, in a way, you can say that everyone cheats on their Lutzes nowadays.

Off the top of my head, Rika and Han Yan, particularly Han, still do the Lutz sort of the old fashion way as you can see the clear clockwise movement created by the deep outside edge prior to toe picking.

 

[Jontor]

Off the top of my head, Rika and Han Yan, particularly Han, still do the Lutz sort of the old fashion way as you can see the clear clockwise movement created by the deep outside edge prior to toe picking.

Rika, really? I honestly don't remember her Lutzes as she didn't do any of them last season. I have to check her out more closely.

Edit: Watched Rika's Worlds 19 free, and nah, not the old style of Lutz imo, I think it's a straight line but more of the Trusova S-shaped entry into it.

 

[Edwin]

Some really, really nice clips with the best current CSKA skaters from very close by using an on-ice camera:
the powerful Sof'ya Samodelkina:




this is the correct order, and did Sof'ya jump her 3A-3T?

 

[Edwin]

the very expressive Liza Berestovskaya:




isn't she just wonderful smiling at the camera like that while skating?

 

[Edwin]

the regal Anna Frolova:




and many more by @morus.vadim.

What a treat to see the skaters from this close up.

The young ice dance couple is also a delight.

Vadim, still so young, is an excellent skater and operator by himself, being able to film these short program run throughs on a crowded rink.

 

[Resa]

I hope Liza T only changes her Sp Dress. I really liked the black one.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Interesting that the ISU considers the toe loop as the most commonly cheated and yet most of the obsession surrounding pre-rotation seems to be centred around flips and lutzes.

It’s almost as if people are conflating pre rotation with actual “cheated jump takeoff” like toe axels (a la Meissner or Nguyen).

Feeling deja vu yet @Skatesocs ? Are we destined to have this conversation every two weeks?

 

[Skatesocs]

Feeling deja vu yet @Skatesocs ? Are we destined to have this conversation every two weeks?

Hey, now, skating fandom would be nowhere if we didn't retread the same 5 topics every two weeks. We need to fill up a year, so we make it cyclic!

 

[Edwin]

lessons in public behaviour and on how to create an empire

 

[Edwin]

The best routines from Panin Memorial Junior Girls competition:
Sof'ya Vazhnova:


Valeriya Ovchinnikova:


Anastasiya Zinina:


There are more clips on this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGc9L52zIknEkFUWw6lfPhQ/videos

 

[Skatesocs]

I've only been on board for two weeks, and I'm already over it. SMH.

? Not been in the skating fandom for too long? Very curious, because I wasn't joking. You'll be getting very, very tired indeed if you don't learn to ignore it!

 

[Resa]

I've only been on board for two weeks, and I'm already over it. SMH.

Then the ignore button will be your best friend

 

[plushyfan]

What is your problem? Is this not true?

"This is junior skating, and no matter how beautiful they skate, no matter how beautiful the lines and spins are, this is not "ten". Where should they grow further? "