2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[trkvy]

You're too optimistic believing all these skaters will last that long, most of them will be retired by then, while ironically Tuktamysheva might still be there competing with new girls obviously.

Tuktamysheva will hardly even make it to the National Team this year.

 

[silveruskate]

You're too optimistic believing all these skaters will last that long, most of them will be retired by then, while ironically Tuktamysheva might still be there competing with new girls obviously.

I'm not saying they all will. That was besides the point. It's just that their level is so high, with quads and 3A (aside from Daria), and in other federations they wouldn't be stopping. And forget Olympics/Worlds....with the stream of skaters coming, even finishing first at a Grand Prix would be so hard. Frankly, there are 2 years worth of skaters not even mentioned so you could add another 6. Think about some of these skaters missing out on even a single Grand Prix assignment by 2026. Kostornaia would be Medvedeva's age, and no one is thinking Evgenia won't get at least one during Olympic year.

 

[Thrashergurl]

I wonder if Anna will stay with Eteri once Daria and Kamila start beating her, or if she’ll retire instead.

 

[flanker]

If Liza Tuktamysheva was american, they'd be so on board with her you don't even know.

Just look at how many articles they did for Mirai Nagasu attempting the triple axel at the Olympics, Liza does it every season even fairly consistently and fully rotated.

She is also the Ashley Wagner of the situation, consistently bringing results over all these years rather than 2-3 good seasons career and walk away from the rink. (or faking a comeback)

I think Russia has never really given credit to Tuktamysheva after 2015 Worlds, which btw even there let's not forget RusFed was Team Radionova.

Liza went rapidly down in her performance after 2015 Worlds, maybe with another strong season it would be different. I saw her in 2018 Nationals, the one before the Olympics, she was - I'm sorry - completely forgettable that time with weak skating and low tech. It's great she was able to return in 2018/19 season, but during those about three years there was not much positive.

 

[anonymoose_au]

You're too optimistic believing all these skaters will last that long, most of them will be retired by then, while ironically Tuktamysheva might still be there competing with new girls obviously.

I'd love it for Liza to continue if she wants Her programs are always fun to watch. Even if she never gets to the Olympics it'll still be an amazing career

 

[Scott512]

I agree in some cases....
But then again, there was that time when she missed her 1st attempt at a 3Lz-3Lo.

What happened? it's over two and a half years ago or so I think the people here need a refresher course!

 

[Scott512]

And I think that Liza Tuktamysheva is precisely a type of russian Bradie or Mariah. We still have Evgenia, who is 20 already (21 soon), yes, injured now, but not without a chance to return after recovery. And of course Alina. Her intentions are unclear but I don't doubt she would be able to skate no less than on the level we saw at Vegas this weekend.

Evgenia and Liza were great by 17 my point was that bradie and Mariah were late bloomers well into their twenties before they became skaters at a very high level Internationally. this does not happen in Russia because they get pushed out of the way if they don't make it by 17. It's sad but that's Sports and that's life.

 

[Scott512]

How is that sad that Russians encourage teen to do sports and compete on the highest level? Besides, teens are competing in both men’s and ladies, in various countries, and some of them remain in the sport. Americain male skating was stormed by teens who stayed, and Russia didn’t lose Medvedeva and Tuktamysheva, and America has its own Lui who lead nationally there, and only yesterday Shin, aged 16 won bronze. In both Korea and Japan, leading ladies also skate and win in their teens, so no, it’s not a Russian phenomenon. Russia has quite a statistical sample of ladies who skate competitively that we now see in the Cup, and the talent is the talent... I don’t understand how it is somehow more valuable if it takes 15 years to fully realize vs 10.

You name the other countries but they're just not on the same level not even close with Russia in ladies figure skating. Of course there are outstanding ladies and the Juniors and seniors outside of Russia. There's just not a lot of them in the one discipline like Russia has with the girls in the ladies. The second-tier Russian ladies are better than almost every country's top three.

you make an interesting point that it doesn't really matter if it takes 15 years to make it or 10 years to make it. I agree with that. The problem is the ladies in Russia don't have 10 years let alone 15 years. Girls and young ladies I've enjoyed skate for Russia over the years are now on the outside looking in.

Remember years ago how fans were saying why can't Russia do well in ladies figure skating? Now this. EG
changed everything.

 

[Amei]

This isn't directed at you specifically but comments like this confuse me no end.

Like...do people honestly believe that Mishin sits at home coming up with ways to undermine his own skaters? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The easiest answer? 3A are hard just because you can do one doesn't mean you can do two in the same program and especially not in the second half.

I don't think most people who complain (and I have been 1 of them) that Mishin's skaters have poor layouts are saying that Mishin is intentionally trying to undermine them, but his skaters have problems with their layouts. They do not back-load near to what the other top skaters do; based on competitions even small domestic ones (and if you look at Tuktamysheva's competitive history she does a lot of small competitions) they haven't attempted to gradually increase their back-loading to add more points.

And they generally seem to be behind (along with many others) in terms of staying competitive in Russia - look at last season how quickly Tuktamysheva learned a quad toe (and I think there were videos of her doing another type of quad in practice), but it really begs the question because they knew that Shcherbakova and Trusova were coming to seniors with quads, why did it take Tuktamysheva losing to the quads for them to get serious about training the quad.

 

[Amei]

How is this news? Was it ever in doubt?

Perhaps there was an outstanding question to the ISU if the GP series were really just national type competitions if national competition age limit rules might apply. Or perhaps an exception to allow skaters within 1 year of age-eligibility to compete to not be behind the others going into an Olympic season since there are very few junior competitions this year.

 

[Tolstoj]

Tuktamysheva will hardly even make it to the National Team this year.

Looking at how that last competition went maybe yeah, but i don't think that will stop her from competing.

I don't think most people who complain (and I have been 1 of them) that Mishin's skaters have poor layouts are saying that Mishin is intentionally trying to undermine them, but his skaters have problems with their layouts. They do not back-load near to what the other top skaters do; based on competitions even small domestic ones (and if you look at Tuktamysheva's competitive history she does a lot of small competitions) they haven't attempted to gradually increase their back-loading to add more points.

And they generally seem to be behind (along with many others) in terms of staying competitive in Russia - look at last season how quickly Tuktamysheva learned a quad toe (and I think there were videos of her doing another type of quad in practice), but it really begs the question because they knew that Shcherbakova and Trusova were coming to seniors with quads, why did it take Tuktamysheva losing to the quads for them to get serious about training the quad.

Because she is 23, not 14, has been competing for 13 years internationally, some of these new girls weren't even born when she won Cup of Nice in 2007.

It's not feasible for Tuktamysheva to go for the most extreme technical programs, and ruin your body, especially since that doesn't seem to be the issue anyway.

Last season Kostornaya won everything internationally without a quad, you can win on quality.

I don't think backloading everything is a solution for her necessarily, i'd work on getting that lutz-toe more stable first.

 

[lariko]

You name the other countries but they're just not on the same level not even close with Russia in ladies figure skating. Of course there are outstanding ladies and the Juniors and seniors outside of Russia. There's just not a lot of them in the one discipline like Russia has with the girls in the ladies. The second-tier Russian ladies are better than almost every country's top three.

you make an interesting point that it doesn't really matter if it takes 15 years to make it or 10 years to make it. I agree with that. The problem is the ladies in Russia don't have 10 years let alone 15 years. Girls and young ladies I've enjoyed skate for Russia over the years are now on the outside looking in.

Remember years ago how fans were saying why can't Russia do well in ladies figure skating? Now this. EG
changed everything.

They have 10 years. They start at 5, they enter competition at 13 on international junior level, they switch to senior division at 15. That’s 10 years in training to enter seniors on national level. from there, it’s how well they hold their own, and if they want to—if they want to switch careers away from skating by the time most other young people only starting their training in the field of their choosing—it’s their choice to make. Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, Medvedeva and, as the national competitions show, plenty of ladies on national level stay on longer.

The international domination of Russians wasn’t at all a given until the last few years and they face steep competition from Japan and Korea for ultra-ci elements.

Figure skating is popular in Russia, was so forever, and holds its ground better than in some other countries. They get as many slots as everyone else, rarely releasing women to compete for other former Soviet republics or countries. Rules of the international competitions dictate that only 3 contenders plus 2 or so spares is what figure skating requires from each country. But the wider and deeper the field, the higher the quality of that tiny group will be.

So, much talent in Russia keeps the creative broth boiling, bringing to top the three they need each year, helping them create a lively national competition. They have wide network and as this year opens up, well, I see a lot of competitions they held on every level. And, they certainly are not shy about inviting everyone who cares to see their national competitions to give exposure to their line-ups.

they are even starting to show growth of regional schools and rinks, instead of focusing everything in the same two traditional centres. They have talent that moved to coaching, they have talent attracted to the sport, they have dancing tradition. And they have 3 spots.

to preserve divas status they have to prevent the entry to the hopeful and talented girls into the sport by making it inaccessible... and they do everything to make it accessible.

So, what on Earth are they doing wrong?

 

[silveruskate]

I don't think most people who complain (and I have been 1 of them) that Mishin's skaters have poor layouts are saying that Mishin is intentionally trying to undermine them, but his skaters have problems with their layouts. They do not back-load near to what the other top skaters do; based on competitions even small domestic ones (and if you look at Tuktamysheva's competitive history she does a lot of small competitions) they haven't attempted to gradually increase their back-loading to add more points.

And they generally seem to be behind (along with many others) in terms of staying competitive in Russia - look at last season how quickly Tuktamysheva learned a quad toe (and I think there were videos of her doing another type of quad in practice), but it really begs the question because they knew that Shcherbakova and Trusova were coming to seniors with quads, why did it take Tuktamysheva losing to the quads for them to get serious about training the quad.

I agree with the quad part, but at least this season with the backloading....if you compare to Anna then this season they're both backloading an -eu--3S and a 3Lz. Anna is backloading an extra combo but I don't think Liza could ever do that.

Even her layout is the max you can do when repeating a 3Lz and 3F. The 3F-2A sounds bad, but it's worth more than a 3F-2T by 0.38 and Liza finds it more comfortable. So maybe Mishin is the genius here?

 

[ali0125]

I think in Russia competitions is just crazy that no time for girls to adapt their growth and come back - once you hit the growth spurt, did bad in a couple of competitions and you lose all the government funding etc and you are done. In some other countries, you have more control over the recourses but you'd better be rich or have sponsorships.

 

[Scott512]

I wonder if Anna will stay with Eteri once Daria and Kamila start beating her, or if she’ll retire instead.

Anya has been with EG for 12 years. I bet they end up together 15 or 20 years before Anya retires. She also has the type of personality that will enable her to thrive with other skaters who are as good or better than she is. Others couldn’t handle that. Anna can.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Because she is 23, not 14, has been competing for 13 years internationally, some of these new girls weren't even born when she won Cup of Nice in 2007.

It's not feasible for Tuktamysheva to go for the most extreme technical programs, and ruin your body, especially since that doesn't seem to be the issue anyway.

Exactly this. I'm sure Mishin is perfectly aware that backloading jumps gets you big points. But if a skater is unable to perform them without getting injured then pushing them to do it is in no-one's interest.

Some posters seem certain that Mishin and Liza never attempted these layouts during the choreo process and found they didn't work. Considering Mishin's looooong and successful coaching career I feel like he should get the benefit of the doubt that he has some idea of what he's doing.

 

[sclloyd]

Looking at how that last competition went maybe yeah, but i don't think that will stop her from competing.



Because she is 23, not 14, has been competing for 13 years internationally, some of these new girls weren't even born when she won Cup of Nice in 2007.

It's not feasible for Tuktamysheva to go for the most extreme technical programs, and ruin your body, especially since that doesn't seem to be the issue anyway.

Last season Kostornaya won everything internationally without a quad, you can win on quality.

I don't think backloading everything is a solution for her necessarily, i'd work on getting that lutz-toe more stable first.

My comment was just the layout in general. It'd be ideal if she backloaded the program, but again, I don't know what conditioning goes into that. It just seems like there should be at least one young Mishin skater who could do that. As for the combinations, I don't like seeing Sofia saying a 3A is coming when she's still putting 3-2s in her programs. The strategy just seems misguided? And if not misguided, then I am missing something because Mishin's program arrangements always seem different compared to even other non-TT/AoP camps.

 

[silveruskate]

They have 10 years. They start at 5, they enter competition at 13 on international junior level, they switch to senior division at 15. That’s 10 years in training to enter seniors on national level. from there, it’s how well they hold their own, and if they want to—if they want to switch careers away from skating by the time most other young people only starting their training in the field of their choosing—it’s their choice to make. Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, Medvedeva and, as the national competitions show, plenty of ladies on national level stay on longer.

The international domination of Russians wasn’t at all a given until the last few years and they face steep competition from Japan and Korea for ultra-ci elements.

Figure skating is popular in Russia, was so forever, and holds its ground better than in some other countries. They get as many slots as everyone else, rarely releasing women to compete for other former Soviet republics or countries. Rules of the international competitions dictate that only 3 contenders plus 2 or so spares is what figure skating requires from each country. But the wider and deeper the field, the higher the quality of that tiny group will be.

So, much talent in Russia keeps the creative broth boiling, bringing to top the three they need each year, helping them create a lively national competition. They have wide network and as this year opens up, well, I see a lot of competitions they held on every level. And, they certainly are not shy about inviting everyone who cares to see their national competitions to give exposure to their line-ups.

they are even starting to show growth of regional schools and rinks, instead of focusing everything in the same two traditional centres. They have talent that moved to coaching, they have talent attracted to the sport, they have dancing tradition. And they have 3 spots.

to preserve divas status they have to prevent the entry to the hopeful and talented girls into the sport by making it inaccessible... and they do everything to make it accessible.

So, what on Earth are they doing wrong?

Who said change anything? But I don't get why it isn't sad. You're talking about the past and you're right. But let's think about the future. In the future we're looking at the possibility of skaters that could podium at Worlds (if it weren't for each other) not even getting two grand prix assignments or even one.

 

[Scott512]

They have 10 years. They start at 5, they enter competition at 13 on international junior level, they switch to senior division at 15. That’s 10 years in training to enter seniors on national level. from there, it’s how well they hold their own, and if they want to—if they want to switch careers away from skating by the time most other young people only starting their training in the field of their choosing—it’s their choice to make. Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, Medvedeva and, as the national competitions show, plenty of ladies on national level stay on longer.

The international domination of Russians wasn’t at all a given until the last few years and they face steep competition from Japan and Korea for ultra-ci elements.

Figure skating is popular in Russia, was so forever, and holds its ground better than in some other countries. They get as many slots as everyone else, rarely releasing women to compete for other former Soviet republics or countries. Rules of the international competitions dictate that only 3 contenders plus 2 or so spares is what figure skating requires from each country. But the wider and deeper the field, the higher the quality of that tiny group will be.

So, much talent in Russia keeps the creative broth boiling, bringing to top the three they need each year, helping them create a lively national competition. They have wide network and as this year opens up, well, I see a lot of competitions they held on every level. And, they certainly are not shy about inviting everyone who cares to see their national competitions to give exposure to their line-ups.

they are even starting to show growth of regional schools and rinks, instead of focusing everything in the same two traditional centres. They have talent that moved to coaching, they have talent attracted to the sport, they have dancing tradition. And they have 3 spots.

to preserve divas status they have to prevent the entry to the hopeful and talented girls into the sport by making it inaccessible... and they do everything to make it accessible.

So, what on Earth are they doing wrong?

Russia has five or six skaters that do the ultra ci as you call them jumps while the other countries have one. Japan? Korea? USA? One each? Maybe in the year or so one of those countries can have one skater that could beat one of Russian girls but that one skater is going to have to beat three ultra ci Russians. And that will be a very tough ask. Let’s just hope we have a normal season next season with the Olympics and we can figure out who does what and who is great and who is very good.

 

[chasingneverland]

There are no Bradie Tennells and Mariah Bells with the Russian ladies.

I believe Liza, Evgenia, and Stanislava might disagree with you - all are 20+. The difference is depth. And keep in mind that Bradie and Mariah have both lost to Alysa Liu twice, US's own junior phenom and the reigning two-time US national champion (being ineligible due to being too young before.)