2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

Not in that case
Regarding TAT, it planed out as a good choice to sent Zhenya at Worlds that year. But Liza should have been sent instead of Sofia. I was advocating for Alina, Zhenya and Liza for the team, but they didn't listen to me

Sofia placed 3rd (of the senior eligible girls at Russian's that year) - 3 points behind Alina and Stanislava (and 2 points ahead of Evgenia). (They weren't going to kick two people off the team especially when Russia tends to make the choice based on Nationals). Also Sofia had just won Europeans! She was going! Also, it's not like they would have done better, medals wise. Alina won gold. Elizabet landed a quad (which is technical content neither Liza or Evgenia have)! Really the bronze medal Evengia got is mostly based on Rika's mistakes and Evgenia's amazing PCS (which Liza does not get).

 

[Scott512]

Not sure about the Fed, but the Coaches Council certainly listened to her. In fact I think she's on the Coaches Council and they decide who gets the World's spots.

T Tarasova must have some influence, otherwise why would Liza have agreed to take a photo with her rather than pretend she had to be somewhere else or just telling her to take a hike outright?

ETA: Not that I think Aliona has much to worry about, TBH Liza could do a 3A in SP, 2 3As (one in combo) and a quad in the free and the Fed, along with most posters here would still want Aliona on the team more.

What you state is true. Especially about the coaches Council in the tower of it.

 

[trkvy]

Peterburg Figure Skating Academy tour with Liza Nugumanova

Khrustalny training session sneak peak with Elizabet Tursynbaeva​

 

[Jeanie19]

Not in that case
Regarding TAT, it planed out as a good choice to sent Zhenya at Worlds that year. But Liza should have been sent instead of Sofia. I was advocating for Alina, Zhenya and Liza for the team, but they didn't listen to me

It would have been a good team. Has one country sent the current Olympic champion, a world champion and a two time world champion ..current Olympic silver medalist to Worlds before?

 

[anonymoose_au]

But Liza should have been sent instead of Sofia.

Sofia was the Euros Champion no way should she have been left off.

I was very happy that Med did so well at Worlds, but you can't deny had the situation been reversed and Med had been the one who had the great early season (getting to the GPF and medalling) but then getting sick and missing Nats and Euros while Liza had struggled she wouldn't have even been considered for that Worlds spot. That was Tarasova's meddling and it was hugely unfair and a cruel thing to do.

 

[colormyworld240]

Not in that case
Regarding TAT, it planed out as a good choice to sent Zhenya at Worlds that year. But Liza should have been sent instead of Sofia. I was advocating for Alina, Zhenya and Liza for the team, but they didn't listen to me

This would've been a scandal. Sofia won Euros and she earned her place at Worlds, it's not her fault Liza had to miss nationals. If anything, I'd also argue that Konstantinova should've been on the world team as well because she won nationals (when you only consider senior eligible skaters) and I don't think anyone who won nationals has ever been left off the world team. Normally, the fed goes with top 3 at nationals for the whole team. And yes she did get some controversial spots over Gubanova in the past, but looking at that year in isolation she definitely deserved the world spot.

But anyways, while there's no question that TAT has said awful things about many skaters, I don't think Liza not being on the world team can be blamed on her. Wasn't there a council of something like 19 top coaches who voted, with TAT only having one vote, and it wasn't even close with Evgenia winning by a landslide?

And I don't know if TAT has that much influence anymore. If a top skater slams her, will she be able to ruin their careers? I think she definitely has used her influence to skew results in the past against less accomplished skaters, but I'm not sure how much power she has over world/olympic champions who have many titles. She's said terrible things about Liza and also Alina but they continue take many photos with her whenever there's an opportunity. Maybe it's just a part of their culture to be polite, or maybe they're smart enough not to stir the pot because she really has that much influence. Who knows.

 

[colormyworld240]

Sofia was the Euros Champion no way should she have been left off.

I was very happy that Med did so well at Worlds, but you can't deny had the situation been reversed and Med had been the one who had the great early season (getting to the GPF and medalling) but then getting sick and missing Nats and Euros while Liza had struggled she wouldn't have even been considered for that Worlds spot. That was Tarasova's meddling and it was hugely unfair and a cruel thing to do.

To be fair, Euros/World spots have always been decided by nationals over season results, this isn't unique to Liza. Gubanova, Tarakanova, Kanysheva, and Sinitsina have all medalled at JGPF and were left off the World team in favour of a skater who didn't medal/make JGPF but performed better at nationals. The only recent case I can remember that was an exception was when Evgenia made the Olympic team without competing at nationals, and Konstantinova was left off the World team despite winning nationals out of the seniors. I'd say what was cruel was booting Konstantinova off the team. Nationals results were Stasya/Alina/Sofia and there wouldn't have been the drama if they just sent the 3 that earned it.

An argument could be made for Liza being in the same position as Evgenia in 2018 but she would've had to replace Sofia (3rd at nationals) at Euros but she didn't recover in time. Then Sofia won Euros, and so you have: Stasya (1st place at nats should be guaranteed a spot) and Sofia Euro Champ. That leaves Alina, who did have a better season that Liza so she couldn't replace her.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Wasn't there a council of something like 19 top coaches who voted, with TAT only having one vote, and it wasn't even close with Evgenia winning by a landslide?

It was, but I heard T Tarasova politicked hard for Zhenya Med and might also have suggested Liza could get in at the expense of Sofia Sam which put Mishin in an impossible position. Then they came up with the face-off at the Cup of Russia Final which Med won only very narrowly and with her Lutz not being called.

She's said terrible things about Liza and also Alina but they continue take many photos with her whenever there's an opportunity. Maybe it's just a part of their culture to be polite, or maybe they're smart enough not to stir the pot because she really has that much influence. Who knows.

Liza and Alina are more forgiving people than me is all I can say! I don't think I could hold my tongue in their position. I'm high key hoping that on the day Liza announces her retirement she gives T Tarasova the finger and tells her she really needs to go on a diet!

 

[chasingneverland]

Sofia was the Euros Champion no way should she have been left off.

I was very happy that Med did so well at Worlds, but you can't deny had the situation been reversed and Med had been the one who had the great early season (getting to the GPF and medalling) but then getting sick and missing Nats and Euros while Liza had struggled she wouldn't have even been considered for that Worlds spot. That was Tarasova's meddling and it was hugely unfair and a cruel thing to do.

The thing is, that wasn't the initial question/predicament. The "problem" arose when Alina "underperformed" at both nationals and Europeans. It was futher complicated with Stanislava also underperformed at Europeans (placing 4th) and not getting Russia their medal sweep. Then the question really became who would replace Stanislava since the usual team of top 3 (not counting the ineligible juniors) had "underperformed". Which came down to Evgenia and Liza, both of who struggled with Evgenia struggling at nationals and Liza not being there at all - keep in mind this is how Russia picks their team - based on National results. So they sent them to a faceoff at the Russian Cup Final.

EDIT: I think there might have initially been an opening for both of them maybe - Liza and Evgenia - with Sofia being replaced as well. But then she won Europeans (while Stanislava struggled) and Alina was the reigning Olympic gold medalist so both of them locked up their spots. (Really no one predicted Sofia would have the season she was having at the time and that meant only one potential spot and a competition for it between Evgenia and Liza.) With one remaining spot and with worries over Alina's recent performances, they were going to send Evgenia. She was the reigning Olympic silver medalist (just the season before as well as a silver at Europeans the season before too), as well as 2X Grand Prix Final, European, and Worlds Champion, who was still getting very high PCS and v favourable international scoring. Keep in mind there were concerns over maintaining that 3rd spot.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Which came down to Evgenia and Liza, both of who struggled with Evgenia struggling at nationals and Liza not being there at all - keep in mind this is how Russia picks their team - based on National results. So they sent them to a faceoff at the Russian Cup Final.

Maybe so, but I find it impossible to believe that if Zhenya had been in Liza's place missing Nats due to ill health there would have even been a question of sending her after Stasya messed up. They simply would have announced her as the getting the spot, which honestly they should have just done. Instead they not only showed no confidence in Liza whatsoever, they humiliated her by making her participate in a skate-off she was never going to win.

If the Russian Fed wants to play favourites that's up to them, but I despise their hypocrisy in pretending to give Liza any chance at all of making Worlds that season.

 

[chasingneverland]

Maybe so, but I find it impossible to believe that if Zhenya had been in Liza's place missing Nats due to ill health there would have even been a question of sending her after Stasya messed up. They simply would have announced her as the getting the spot, which honestly they should have just done. Instead they not only showed no confidence in Liza whatsoever, they humiliated her by making her participate in a skate-off she was never going to win.

If the Russian Fed wants to play favourites that's up to them, but I despise their hypocrisy in pretending to give Liza any chance at all of making Worlds that season.

Agreed. I think going in the team was originally expected to be Alina, Evgenia, and probably Stanislava. Both Liza and Sofia (especially Sofia) surpassed expectations that year. Liza had a very good start to her season (placing 3rd at the Grand Prix) and then Sofia won Europeans (after a v consistent season). That combined with struggles from the "original" 3 (at nationals and Europeans) meant that the team wasn't as clear as might initially have been thought and others had the chance to make their case. However, with Sofia winning Euros, she was going. Alina was also going - really her struggles hurt Liza's chances. That meant that in the end with both Alina and Evgenia the Russian committee went with their reputation and higher potential for success. Remember, at the time Liza's best score was sub 220 while both Alina and Evgenia could score higher and their PCS would save them in the case of minor mistakes - at the time they had the highest PCS in the world with really only Kostner rivalling them - they actually still have the highest PCS in the world. Remember also that it wasn't just Russian judges that were looking fondly at Alina and Evgenia - international ones were too. It was only the year before that Alina and Evgenia went 1-2 at the Olympics and both of them won everything else that season and Evgenia pretty much won everything the previous two seasons with both of them winning everything at the juniors level before that. (In addition, while Liza was doing well that season, she had struggled (a lot) the previous three seasons - unlike Evgenia and Alina - and didn't have anywhere near the international pedigree Evgenia had.) So when it came down to it, with both underperforming/not present at nationals, they went with Evgenia.

 

[chasingneverland]

I think it's similar to now and why - if there is Worlds this year - I think we can almost predict the team, outside of injury to the presupposed team. The current assumed team is Sasha, Anna, and Alena. The other challengers are Liza, Sofia, Stanislava, Evgenia???, Anastasiia, etc (but they would, progressively, require a series of unlikely events to earn the spot). The team, as it stands, is likely Sasha, Anna, and Alena because of their peak abilities and potential, their previous record (winning everything for years and really usually losing only to each other), and their reputation both domestically and internationally. Alena, who is currently the "weakest" has the same advantages that Evgenia had then against Liza when it comes to a decision between the two - better international PCS (Alena's are the highest in the world of currently competing skaters), better reputation and recent placements/medals particularly internationally (Alena is the reigning GPF and European champion and won pretty much everything at the junior level before that in the last two years unless she lost to the other two girls who are likely to go.) Now, while Anna and Sasha, don't have the PCS particularly internationally of Alena and don't have that advantage, they do still tend to have better PCS than Liza, especially Anna. In addition, Liza can't match them in tech content. They both have quads (that they've landed internationally in competition) and Anna has better spins, step sequences, etc. Plus, Anna (and even Daria) has already beaten Liza this year and Anna hasn't even attempted her 3 quad program this year yet. Therefore, I think that for anyone to upset this team - outside of injury - they would NEED to outscore one (or more) of Anna, Sasha, and Alena and not have it be close or have them make uncharacteristic mistakes that could be easily excused/improved upon.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If Aliona makes the Words team I see no issue, despite the hand wringing any what not she came 2nd in Stage IV and won the SP there.

In Liza's case she was basically told "Hey, we know you have a 3A, medalled at both your GPs and got a bronze in the final, but we think this skater over here, who didn't even make the podium or the finals and has been obviously struggling all season is a safer bet than you." Can you imagine anything more confidence destroying than that?! Liza shows amazing tenacity and will-power to continue on despite all that and it's one of the reasons I admire her so much.

 

[chasingneverland]

If Aliona makes the Words team I see no issue, despite the hand wringing any what not she came 2nd in Stage IV and won the SP there.

In Liza's case she was basically told "Hey, we know you have a 3A, medalled at both your GPs and got a bronze in the final, but we think this skater over here, who didn't even make the podium or the finals and has been obviously struggling all season is a safer bet than you." Can you imagine anything more confidence destroying than that?! Liza shows amazing tenacity and will-power to continue on despite all that and it's one of the reasons I admire her so much.

The issue is that "this skater over here" wasn't just any skater; it wasn't a random skater. It was the reigning Olympic silver medalist from only the year before. Also, it's not like Liza was outperforming Evgenia by a lot. Even struggling, Evgenia managed to medal at one of GPs and even managed to beat Liza in the free skate at the GP they were both at. If it was versus Sofia (or any other skater with the exception of Alina) then yes, Liza probably would have gone but it wasn't. And then Sofia won Euros.

Liza is a warrior and I also admire her tenacity (and spunk) but with what they knew at the time and the risks of losing spots (especially in the case of catastrophic skates when they could have at least hoped Evgenia's PCS would save them somewhat - as she was still getting better ones than her peers (relative to their skates) and had the historical highest PCS in the world)..I understand why they picked Evgenia between the two. (It's important to note that I don't think it was ever supposed to come down to the two of them - I think the expected fight was between Stanislava and Liza (and Sofia but she had locked up her spot by winning Euros and beating Alina and Stanislava.)) Remember also that they knew that Rika would be there. She had already beaten all of them - including Alina and that's not counting Elizabet who had already attempted a quad twice in competition already. I think they could expect Eteri to have her ready. They also could have expected Satoko and Kaori to be there. Satoko had already beaten both Sofia and Liza and Kaori had beaten Sofia. This wasn't the run-away almost guaranteed three medals that Russia has now. All could be beaten (and had been already) so I think they were looking at their greatest chances of keeping three spots especially with Alina struggling at the last two competitions. Remember, Liza was sick so not exactly a guarantee herself. But they did still give Liza a chance. They had her compete against Evgenia head-to-head. And regardless of how you look at the judging, Liza didn't blow Evgenia out of the water (even in a down year for Evgenia) in any of the times they faced each other and the last time Evgenia won. So with that competition, as well as the fact that Evgenia was the reigning Olympic silver medalist, I understand why they sent Evgenia to Worlds.

 

[anonymoose_au]

The issue is that "this skater over here" wasn't just any skater; it wasn't a random skater. It was the reigning Olympic silver medalist.

But being the World Champion didn't help Liza any in the 2015-2016 season. As soon as she started struggling the Russian Fed dropped her like a bag of bricks.

It's interesting how some skaters can get a pass based on their "body of work" whereas others aren't allowed a single slip up. It'd be nice if the Fed could give out a list so skaters would know what group they're in. That way if they get injured or sick or mess up once they know they can write off the current season and concentrate on the next one rather than waste their time going to a pretend "skate-off". Liza could have started working on her quad in January 2019!

 

[chasingneverland]

But being the World Champion didn't help Liza any in the 2015-2016 season. As soon as she started struggling the Russian Fed dropped her like a bag of bricks.

It's interesting how some skaters can get a pass based on their "body of work" whereas others aren't allowed a single slip up. It's be nice if the Fed could give out a list so skaters would know what group they're in. That way if they get injured or sick or mess up once they know they can write off the current season and concentrate on the next one rather than waste their time going to a pretend "skate-off". Liza could have started working on her quad in January 2019!

Liza was 8th at Russian champions that year. 8th!!! (6th if you don't count juniors). That isn't a little slip up - that's at best 3rd alternate. (Evgenia was 7th in the controversial year but the top 3 weren't eligible which has never happened before. Therefore she was 4th - which would be first alternate.) However, due to Anna, Alena, and Sasha being ineligible, and EVERYONE struggling at some point or another - I mean they clearly couldn't send the top 3 as they usually do - it was more a year that they looked at "body of work" for EVERYONE.

Another thing, is if you ARE looking at "body of work" that doesn't really help Liza. That's actually the biggest strike against her. Her amazing 14-15 year reads as an outlier which isn't true for Alina, Evgenia, Anna, Alena, and Sasha - they've won and continued to win pretty much everything - for as long as they compete.

 

[Amei]

But being the World Champion didn't help Liza any in the 2015-2016 season. As soon as she started struggling the Russian Fed dropped her like a bag of bricks.

It's interesting how some skaters can get a pass based on their "body of work" whereas others aren't allowed a single slip up. It'd be nice if the Fed could give out a list so skaters would know what group they're in. That way if they get injured or sick or mess up once they know they can write off the current season and concentrate on the next one rather than waste their time going to a pretend "skate-off". Liza could have started working on her quad in January 2019!

Tuktamysheva was never a good second score skater, if she falters on her triple axel there is nothing to keep her up, Medvedeva is a much better second score skater so even when her jumps falter she is more capable of staying up in the rankings.

 

[chasingneverland]

Tuktamysheva was never a good second score skater, if she falters on her triple axel there is nothing to keep her up, Medvedeva is a much better second score skater so even when her jumps falter she is more capable of staying up in the rankings.

Yeah pretty much what I was thinking. Remember, even that year when Liza started really strong and Evgenia struggled, it wasn't until after Worlds that Liza skated clean short and free programs. She actually got negative GOE on almost every 3A she attempted that season.

I really wanted Liza to go. Really while I'm delighted that Sofia got to go to Europeans - and win! - and Worlds it is kinda unfortunately because her success kinda came at Liza's expense. And Liza deserved to! But she's not the first Russian skater who deserved to go who won't.

 

[eterialskating]

As much as I like Liza T for her sassy attitude, there is no denying that Alena is the better skater. I don’t think Alena would need anyone to go to the federation on her behalf. IMO, Alena is better than Sasha and Anna also, but she lacks that quad (and so far 3axel this season).
It’ll depend on who skates the best that day.
I do agree that Anna and Sasha will be on the team. Unless we see a meltdown from Sasha, but she’s very determined this season. Anna is the favorite of the Russian federation, so her spot is a lock.
I see some discussion of Medvedeva. I don’t see her as a factor at all. I wonder if we will see her skate again. Can she keep up with these kids?

Um landing quads is also a talent and no she is not better than both. Frankly I prefer Anna artistry wise and among skaters/programs with triples only Medvedeva is still much better than her or anyone else for that matter. It's her 3A that really gives her advantage, that's at least 6+ cushion in SP and her 2 3A's in LP can be considered as good as a quad. Without it she falls back to Zagitova and Medvedeva scoring and with the way Anna and especially Sasha is scoring she will need to be perfect and hope those 2 mess up big time. That's not what I would call a better skater by any means.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Really while I'm delighted that Sofia got to go to Europeans - and win! - and Worlds it is kinda unfortunately because her success kinda came at Liza's expense.

So now it's Sofia'a fault Liza didn't get to go to Worlds?

All I'm saying here is that Liza was treated unfairly, and she totally was! I don't understand why so many here don't want to admit that. She may not be your favourite skater, you may think she's terrible. But if you think for a single second T Tarasova would have politicked for Liza to be picked the way she did for Zhenya Med you're dreaming.

T Tarasova probably would have sent a bag of bricks instead of Liza she thinks so little of her. I expect that of her, I just thought the rest of the Coaches Council might not have been such a bunch of jerks.