2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 546 | Golden Skate

2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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anonymoose_au said:
So now it's Sofia'a fault Liza didn't get to go to Worlds?

All I'm saying here is that Liza was treated unfairly, and she totally was! I don't understand why so many here don't want to admit that. She may not be your favourite skater, you may think she's terrible. But if you think for a single second T Tarasova would have politicked for Liza to be picked the way she did for Zhenya Med you're dreaming.

T Tarasova probably would have sent a bag of bricks instead of Liza she thinks so little of her. I expect that if her, I just thought the rest of the Coaches Council might not have been such a bunch of jerks.
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I don't think it's Sofia's fault anymore than I think that it's Anna, Alena, or Sasha's fault that other girls likely won't go to the next Worlds and didn't get to go to the last Europeans. In other words, not at all.

I just think that it's a fact that there was probably only two spots in play and four girls who had cases for them. Once Sofia won Euros, she claimed one of the spots. And really there were only two spots in play because Evgenia struggled so much at the beginning but it's not like anyone else DIDN'T. EVERYONE, yes, including Liza, struggled at times and no one outperformed the other to the level that they guaranteed themselves a spot.

Well, because I don't think she was treated unfairly. I LIKE Liza, and looking objectively, I can see why she didn't get the spot. Remember, up until this point, the unwritten rules were that the top 3 at nationals go to Euros and Worlds. Now, in this case, neither of the top 3 could go. However, that's almost the only thing that was ever promised anyone. If there is anyone who could have argued that she was treated unfairly, it's Stasya who lost her spot as the best senior skater at nationals. And if she had skated better at Euros she likely would have kept her spot. A spot that hadn't originally been in play. (The ones who go to Euros usually get to go to worlds as well.) In fact, Stasya was initially named to the Worlds team - so if you want to look at who was treated unfairly that might be it! But she struggled at Euros and Alina struggled too - the combination opened up a competition for the final spot as they certainly weren't going to break their "unofficial" rules twice and also remove the newly-crowned European champion (or the reigning Olympic gold medalist for that matter although I don't think that was ever even a fleeting thought) - especially as it's not like the replacement would be a guarantee. So they opened up the final spot for challengers and competition ensued between Stasya, Liza, and Evgenia at the Cup Final - a competition where there is no way they weren't aware of the stakes. And once again Stasya faltered. Both Liza and Evgenia did well. Regardless of how you view the scoring at that event, Evgenia DID win it. (If I remember correctly, Liza did fall on her 3A in the short - one she NEEDed to land to demonstrate consistency.) When you consider all that, as well as the fact that Evgenia's PCS tend to be 5 points higher than Liza's, I don't objectively speaking think she was treated unfairly. After nationals, I actually think they were both rather lucky to have things play out the way they did at Euros and to have the spot even available at all - I doubt it would be the case now. That's a year when no one was clearly better - which hasn't really been seen before or since.

So, no, I don't think Tarasova would politic for Liza but it's also not clear as to why you think that would be a clear choice either (or who you think she should have replaced for that matter) - remember we're looking at this based on what we knew in February at that moment in time. In spite of all the drama/politics, they do ultimately want medals (to a detrimental degree), and it's not like the decision of the council was close - I think it was something like 3/4 voted for Evgenia.
 
chasingneverland said:
So, no, I don't think Tarasova would politic for Liza but it's also not clear as to why you think that would be a clear choice either (or who you think she should have replaced for that matter) - remember we're looking at this based on what we knew in February at that moment in time. In spite of all the drama/politics, they do ultimately want medals (to a detrimental degree), and it's not like the decision of the council was close - I think it was something like 3/4 voted for Evgenia.
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I don't think Tarasova should have politicked for anyone.

But she made it so abundantly clear that Zhenya Med should go it's difficult for me to take the "skate-off" seriously. In other words, I don't think even if Liza landed her 3A she could have won. It was rigged from the beginning which is insulting to both Liza and Zhenya. Liza for obvious reasons, and Zhenya because she was given a "leg up" in order to win. Maybe this isn't what happened, but when you've got a big, influential person going "Zhenya has to go to Worlds, she must!" before the competition even happens it's hard not to think sheningans are afoot.

I also don't believe that Liza would have done poorly enough to lose a spot for the Russian ladies. She may not have medalled, but I have more faith in her than that.

But this is off-topic, the whole point I was trying to make is the posters worrying about Aliona are being silly. She's not Liza, the judges love her, the fans love her, Liza has to win the 3rd spot, Aliona has to lose it. And basically she would have to lose all her jumps for that to happen.
 
chasingneverland said:
The thing is, that wasn't the initial question/predicament. The "problem" arose when Alina "underperformed" at both nationals and Europeans. It was futher complicated with Stanislava also underperformed at Europeans (placing 4th) and not getting Russia their medal sweep. Then the question really became who would replace Stanislava since the usual team of top 3 (not counting the ineligible juniors) had "underperformed". Which came down to Evgenia and Liza, both of who struggled with Evgenia struggling at nationals and Liza not being there at all - keep in mind this is how Russia picks their team - based on National results. So they sent them to a faceoff at the Russian Cup Final.
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That's why i think Pogorilaya's case fascinating. In 2015-2016 season the girl was bombing left and right. Though she got bronze at euros, she bombed hard. She only medaled because the competition was extremely poor.
But fed didn't give a chance to Sotnikova, Tukt, Liptniskaia (who all had better BOW) to win that third worlds spot. They sent Pogo and thankfully for her she medaled. They could have sent konstantinova too, especially after her nats results.

anonymoose_au said:
But this is off-topic, the whole point I was trying to make is the posters worrying about Aliona are being silly. She's not Liza, the judges love her, the fans love her, Liza has to win the 3rd spot, Aliona has to lose it. And basically she would have to lose all her jumps for that to happen.
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Tuktik needs Jesus.

Or simply Samodurova's luck.
 
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yume said:
That's why i think Pogorilaya's case fascinating. In 2016-2017 season the girl was bombing left and right. Though she got bronze at euros, she bombed hard. She only medaled because the competition was extremely poor.
But fed didn't give a chance to Sotnikova, Tukt, Liptniskaia (who all had beter BOW) to win that third worlds spot. They sent Pogo and thankfully for her she medaled. They could have sent konstantinova too, especially after her nats results.
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That year Anna P's competitors were struggling too. At nationals that year, Alina (a junior at the time) outscored everyone but Evgenia. So they did what they usually did - take the top 3 seniors. Also keep in mind, Anna P. medaled that year, Staysa didn't in 2019. Adelina wasn't even competing in the 2016-2017 season, Yulia struggled all season - withdrawing twice, including at nationals - and never competed again, and Liza finished 8th!! at nationals and finished second to Polina ( a junior at the time) in the Cup Finals. If anyone, could have gone, I think it could be Elena, who medaled at both her GPs (winning one) but she had already lost three times? to Anna P that year - at Rostelecom, GPF, and at nationals. As for Stasya, she was still a junior internationally that season and finished behind Anna P and Elena at nationals.

So this isn't the same scenario. You could have withdrawn Anna P maybe but she had already beaten everyone else who could contest her more than once and they were arguably struggling more than her. Russia didn't quite have the abundance of riches then that it does now or even that controversial year. When you look at the 2019 scenario, you have a reigning Olympic gold medalist from the year before, a reigning Olympic silver medalist from the year before, the newly-crowned European champion, the recent GPF bronze medalist, and fed favourite Staysa. However, while you could argue Adelina and Yulia also had similar Olympic pedigree (with comparably impressive bodies of work at the junior and senior level, particularly junior) both of them had already been struggling for the entire prior season with Adelina never competing at all due to injury in addition the the current season. They were already retiring. Once again you have Liza but for the second year in a row she finished 8th at nationals and in this case she'd been struggling for two years and had already been beaten multiple times the last two years. Elena, you could make a case for. But she had already lost three times to Anna P so that isn't the 1-1 of Evgenia and Liza in 2019. Stasya, as previously mentioned, finished lower than Elena (and Anna P) at nationals. And she was still a junior internationally who didn't even qualify for the JGPF and only finished 6th at junior worlds which would have taken place only 2 weeks before. So unlike the choices for the 2019 world championship where there are 4 skaters (and Alina) who have valid claims to the spots, despite Anna P's struggles she is the clear choice.
 
anonymoose_au said:
I also don't believe that Liza would have done poorly enough to lose a spot for the Russian ladies. She may not have medalled, but I have more faith in her than that.

But this is off-topic, the whole point I was trying to make is the posters worrying about Aliona are being silly. She's not Liza, the judges love her, the fans love her, Liza has to win the 3rd spot, Aliona has to lose it. And basically she would have to lose all her jumps for that to happen.
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I don't think Liza would have lost a spot. But the fact remains that even a struggling Evgenia was outscoring her in PCS, including internationally. And Evgenia was trending upwards. Therefore, I think they viewed her as more likely to medal in the eyes of international judges, which is not an unfounded perspective.

Also, I don't think ANYONE has the "freedom" to make mistakes for more than one or two competitions in one season, even those with the resumes of Alina or Evgenia. (Yulia, etc are examples of that.) I just think that when they do, the competition has to outscore them by a lot. Because potential, international prestige and reputation, and how they are received internationally will play a big role in determining things in things are close.

So yes, Aliona is safe is likely going to worlds, baring something catastrophic. And she's "safe" for the same reason that Evgenia was going to worlds in 2019. Her resume is unparalleled for where she is at this point in time, even in an "off year/competition" she's still competitive, her prowess and dominance span more than one season (allowing for judges to "forgive" potentially uncharacteristic mistakes - yes, even internationally), and she's going to get astronomical PCS, even in the event of slight mistakes.
 
Skatesocs said:
That's an unfortunate comparison.
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Agree.... I think the journal wanted to mention any familiar name to it's readers who are not into FS, and hence the choice fell on Tonya.
The seem to make a parallel in 'Tonya was a wunderkind who landed a 3A, Liza did the same thing', but the comparison is weird...


BTW, I find it kind of funny that Mishin seems to always say that transitions and spins shouldn't win over jumps, and Liza in this interview says pretty much the opposite, that FS should be balanced, and she's all for femininity and grace (aka for all mature feminine skaters), but she shouldn't say that since she was once a young jumping bean herself. She concludes, that Figure skating shouldn't be all about quads. I mean... I love Liza, but I disagree with her, since I do think younger skaters can be very mature, understand the music and do very well in PCS, like Aliona or Anna, same as older skaters can sometimes just jump and have nothing more to offer. It isn't about their age, in my opinion. Quad or no quad, there are girls who can both land quads and offer much more than just jumps.
 
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chasingneverland said:
That year Anna P's competitors were struggling too. At nationals that year, Alina (a junior at the time) outscored everyone but Evgenia. So they did what they usually did - take the top 3 seniors. Also keep in mind, Anna P. medaled that year, Staysa didn't in 2019. Adelina wasn't even competing in the 2016-2017 season, Yulia struggled all season - withdrawing twice, including at nationals - and never competed again, and Liza finished 8th!! at nationals and finished second to Polina ( a junior at the time) in the Cup Finals. If anyone, could have gone, I think it could be Elena, who medaled at both her GPs (winning one) but she had already lost three times? to Anna P that year - at Rostelecom, GPF, and at nationals. As for Stasya, she was still a junior internationally that season and finished behind Anna P and Elena at nationals.

So this isn't the same scenario. You could have withdrawn Anna P maybe but she had already beaten everyone else who could contest her more than once and they were arguably struggling more than her. Russia didn't quite have the abundance of riches then that it does now or even that controversial year. When you look at the 2019 scenario, you have a reigning Olympic gold medalist from the year before, a reigning Olympic silver medalist from the year before, the newly-crowned European champion, the recent GPF bronze medalist, and fed favourite Staysa. However, while you could argue Adelina and Yulia also had similar Olympic pedigree (with comparably impressive bodies of work at the junior and senior level, particularly junior) both of them had already been struggling for the entire prior season with Adelina never competing at all due to injury in addition the the current season. They were already retiring. Once again you have Liza but for the second year in a row she finished 8th at nationals and in this case she'd been struggling for two years and had already been beaten multiple times the last two years. Elena, you could make a case for. But she had already lost three times to Anna P so that isn't the 1-1 of Evgenia and Liza in 2019. Stasya, as previously mentioned, finished lower than Elena (and Anna P) at nationals. And she was still a junior internationally who didn't even qualify for the JGPF and only finished 6th at junior worlds which would have taken place only 2 weeks before. So unlike the choices for the 2019 world championship where there are 4 skaters (and Alina) who have valid claims to the spots, despite Anna P's struggles she is the clear choice.
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I meant 2015-2016 season.
Pogo wasn't bombing in 2016-2017 till worlds were she didn't medal. She was quite consistent actually.
I thought my mistake would have been clear....
 
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anonymoose_au said:
Sofia was the Euros Champion no way should she have been left off.
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chasingneverland said:
Sofia placed 3rd (of the senior eligible girls at Russian's that year) - 3 points behind Alina and Stanislava
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Sofia's placement at Nationals was exactly my point, and it seems that many forget that. If Liza was able to skate at Nationals and recovered prior to Europeans, Sofia wouldn't be sent to Europeans to begin with. And to be fair Europeans was a lower quality competition than any Grand Prix competition. Sofia was just lucky Liza wasn't able to compete. Then after the Test skates they had a chance to replace Konstantinova with someone, as they did in the end (fairly, because Zhenya won that competition, but it's worth noticing how both Liza and Zhenya performances were above Sofia's Europeans performance). After all, Sofia performance/placement at Worlds is telling us everything we need to know about her inclusion in the team. I don't have anything against her, but it was obvious (at least to me) who is the best choice for the team that year.
 
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Baron Vladimir said:
Sofia's placement at Nationals was exactly my point, and it seems that many forget that. If Liza was able to skate at Nationals and recovered prior to Europeans, Sofia wouldn't be sent to Europeans to begin with. And to be fair Europeans was a lower quality competition than any Grand Prix competition. Sofia was just lucky Liza wasn't able to compete. Then after the Test skates they had a chance to replace Konstantinova with someone, as they did in the end (fairly, because Zhenya won that competition, but it's worth noticing how both Liza and Zhenya performances were above Sofia's Europeans performance). After all, Sofia performance/placement at Worlds is telling us everything we need to know about her inclusion in the team. I don't have anything against her, but it was obvious (at least to me) who is the best choice for the team that year.
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Sofia earned her 2019 world spot and this year, all the girls medaled so everything turned well.
Maybe it was Alina’s fault for not winning the Europeans but she was mentally struggling since the nationals and she did well at worlds. I remember they even sent a delegation to check if Alina was able to compete.
 
With the battle between Liza and Evgenia, what it came down to is essentially that PCS is the tie breaker because it gives the skater a buffer for minor mistakes.

The thing with Liza is that she also doesn't always get excellent GOE even on the jumps she lands so she loses a lot of her BV advantage to Evgenia in that regard. Sasha has a similar strategy to Liza in that the jumps are the focus but unlike Liza she does get good GOE when she lands and she usually gets her levels too.

I think a lot of criticism around Liza is not that people hate her, it's more frustration that she has so much potential that isn't being maximised. In fact, I feel that if she'd pivoted to being a pcs skater with a consistent competitive triple layout (no 3A) and level 4s all round, she would be able to capitalise on her world champion reputation better. Alina, Evgenia and even Kostner and Kim won on tech as youngsters and stayed competitive later on due to pcs.
 
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