2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[FelineFairy]

Honestly, he needs to take lessons from Mishin on how to develop a pokerface because right now, he‘s shooting himself in the foot with this stupidity.

I also don’t get what they have against poor Sofia.

I really dislike Plyuschenko's behaviour. But.... these two statements are a bit contradictory... Mishin always has a
pokerface whenever his skaters are judged more strictly than others. Did it bring much good to them? To put it
straight, it seems that they are telling Sofiya to get lost, she is not needed. Whatever she does.
As a guess, judges have some instruction, maybe seminars where their attention is attracted to some flaw in a skater's technique. And not attracted to other skaters' problems. Then, psychologically, it is easier to see that flaw
than to overlook it, and overlook all flaws they hadn't discussed before the competition.

 

[Fluture]

There are, and were, plenty of people who were complaining about Daria's edge, which should receive "!" on this or that event. It started with them complaining about it at the stage two of the Cup, while the same people (and nobody else before them) didn't complain about Sasha's wrong edge at the same event, that should receive "e", which is does more serious impact in the score than uncalled "!". So you definitely have wrong order of events here

By the courtesy of another poster (I shamelessly copy pasted the link here, apologies for that. )

If you believe Daria‘s lutz edge deserves ! rather than e, tell me, which one‘s her flip and which one‘s her lutz.

usacheva hosted at ImgBB

Image usacheva hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

I‘ll admit I couldn‘t do it and I have no idea what the right answer is.

 

[Novalis]

Okay. So comparing PCS with last year.

Anna got: 37.80 this year and 36.07 last year. (She got 35.17 at Euros.)
Sasha got: 35.45 this year and 34.83 last year. (She got 34.42 at Euros.)
Both were fairly clean. So, not crazy differences from last year and Anna is the 2x defending Russian champion. And the skater with the most impressive resume in the past year (other than maybe Kamila) that was there. (They're getting Alena PCS but she's not here and it's not like Anna and Kamila don't score super well internationally PCS wise.) It's also not like Sasha's PCS dropped.
For comparison, Liza got: 35.40 this year and 34.65 last year.

Also looking at Kamila's 3Lz-3T. She got 12.88 at Junior Worlds and 13.39 here. For comparison, Sasha's 3Lz-3T got a 13.22 here and a 13.05 at nationals last year and a 13.05 at Euros. Anna's 3Lz-3Lo got a 14.07 here and a 13.82 at nationals last year and a 13.48 at Euros.
So higher yes, but considering nationals, not crazily.

If you're talking about Kami's 3Lz-3T from junior worlds SHORT particularly (probably are), notice how she didn't even have a balanced landing there. This one way better!

 

[NAOTMAA]

In terms of the lutz edge debate Anna has at worst a flat edge and even international judges won't call that for the top ranked skaters, unless the judge is extremely nitpicky, so expecting nationals judges to is really silly

 

[chasingneverland]

If you're talking about Kami's 3Lz-3T from junior worlds SHORT particularly (probably are), notice how she didn't even have a balanced landing there. This one way better!

Yeah I'm comparing short program elements and PCS across the board. I thought about comparing FS ones but...that can be affected by fatigue, etc and is less of a direct comparison.

I agree. Both Kami and Anna's elements were better here, I thought.

 

[Vilord]

So after watching today I relly feel like Sasha gets the short end of the stick in the judging especially compared to Eteris skaters. But since I hate "wuz robbed" posts with little content Im going to go trough the judging of the top 5 skaters and see which changes I would make.

1 Anna
This relly was a good skate for her and I think she deserved 1st place today. The only change I would make is the GOE on the 3F she gets +4s across the board but at least to me the hammer-toe take off is just to much of an eye sore for that high GOE. I still think Its a jump that deserve positive GOE since it has many other good qualities other than the take off. Therefore I woould reduce her GOE by abot half from +2.04 to +1.04 (reduced by 1p to make it easier).
My new score 79.30

2 Kamilla
The program is lovely and everything apart from the 3A was high quality. The swing between the jumps in the combo is still not my fave but I have come to accept it. The problem really comes in the PCS had she skated clean or just had a minor mistake (similair to Anna) I would have no problem. But the rules state that programs including falls cannot get higher tha 9.25 for SS, TT and CO and 8.75 for PE and IN. If we assume she gets this the PCS should be 36.20 which is still a verry high PCS mark.
My new score 78,65

3 Daria
This is where my real problems are. Daria is one of my favourite skaters but she has her limitations and today wasnt her best day. The main thing really is her 3Lz she gets +3s and no edge call when it is clearly inside. They where overall verry generous with e/!/< calls so while I think a e call is called for here I will settle for a ! for now. With that and the struggle on the landing this jump should have gotten +1s which is approx +0.5 total GOE compared to the +1.35 she got today. With the stumbles and the bad landing (and edge issue on the Lutz) I would probably also reduce the PCS by about 0.5 pionts.
My new score 75.50

4 Sasha
Honestly I think This was her best Sp performance ever and for once I dont think she was overscored in PCS (at least not for nationals and in comparison to Anna etc).
My issue here is the ! call on the 3F. Her edge here certainly isnt good but its better than Darias 3Lz and on level with Annas 3Lz, Kamillas 3Lz, Nastia Gs 3lz, Sofia Ss 3Lz, Maiias 3Lz etc and none of those jumps got any calls. And without the call her 3F is a jump that would probably get +3s/+4s but lets go with +3s for now that would put the GOE on +1.5 instead of the +0.5 that she got today. Also how come her combination didnt get a single +5? I dont see how it could be better it has -Transistions -speed -height -good positions -good takeoff and landings -matching the music. So I would like to sneak in another +0.5 In GOE here.
My new score 77.25

5 Liza
I would like for her to score better but when she misses the landing on the 3A, "only" does a 3T+3T (and doesnt backload it) as well as missing levels on the StSq and the CCoSp I have to agree with the score here. If she wants to challenge she really need to work on her spinns because apart from losing levels she also gets relatively low GOE on the compared to her competitors. The only change I would make is that I think the judges could show a bit more appreciation for the best 3Lz in the field (now that she has also added trasitions before and had good glide on the landing) so another +0.5 in GOE here. I want to add that I do enjoy watching her skate and hope that she keeps going even if her scoring potential is limited by spinns and SS.
My new score 74.06

So my top 5 would be:
1 Anna 79.30
2 Kamilla 78.65
3 Sasha 77.25
4 Daria 75.50
5 Liza 74.06

So in the end the only places I eneded up changing was Sasha and Daria and I stand by that choice. Otherwise I brought the field together somewhat because I do think Anna and Kamilla should be slightly closer to the rest than they where.

Feel free to disagree with me but I would prefer constructive arguments above trash talk and name calling

 

[Fried]

Okay. So comparing PCS with last year.

Anna got: 37.80 this year and 36.07 last year. (She got 35.17 at Euros.)
Sasha got: 35.45 this year and 34.83 last year. (She got 34.42 at Euros.)
Both were fairly clean. So, not crazy differences from last year (...)

That's exactly the scandal, because compared to the previous year, Sasha has improved much more (!) than Anna. However, this significant improvement is not reflected in the ratings.

 

[chasingneverland]

So after watching today I relly feel like Sasha gets the short end of the stick in the judging especially compared to Eteris skaters. But since I hate "wuz robbed" posts with little content Im going to go trough the judging of the top 5 skaters and see which changes I would make.

1 Anna
This relly was a good skate for her and I think she deserved 1st place today. The only change I would make is the GOE on the 3F she gets +4s across the board but at least to me the hammer-toe take off is just to much of an eye sore for that high GOE. I still think Its a jump that deserve positive GOE since it has many other good qualities other than the take off. Therefore I woould reduce her GOE by abot half from +2.04 to +1.04 (reduced by 1p to make it easier).
My new score 79.30

2 Kamilla
The program is lovely and everything apart from the 3A was high quality. The swing between the jumps in the combo is still not my fave but I have come to accept it. The problem really comes in the PCS had she skated clean or just had a minor mistake (similair to Anna) I would have no problem. But the rules state that programs including falls cannot get higher tha 9.25 for SS, TT and CO and 8.75 for PE and IN. If we assume she gets this the PCS should be 36.20 which is still a verry high PCS mark.
My new score 78,65

3 Daria
This is where my real problems are. Daria is one of my favourite skaters but she has her limitations and today wasnt her best day. The main thing really is her 3Lz she gets +3s and no edge call when it is clearly inside. They where overall verry generous with e/!/< calls so while I think a e call is called for here I will settle for a ! for now. With that and the struggle on the landing this jump should have gotten +1s which is approx +0.5 total GOE compared to the +1.35 she got today. With the stumbles and the bad landing (and edge issue on the Lutz) I would probably also reduce the PCS by about 0.5 pionts.
My new score 75.50

4 Sasha
Honestly I think This was her best Sp performance ever and for once I dont think she was overscored in PCS (at least not for nationals and in comparison to Anna etc).
My issue here is the ! call on the 3F. Her edge here certainly isnt good but its better than Darias 3Lz and on level with Annas 3Lz, Kamillas 3Lz, Nastia Gs 3lz, Sofia Ss 3Lz, Maiias 3Lz etc and none of those jumps got any calls. And without the call her 3F is a jump that would probably get +3s/+4s but lets go with +3s for now that would put the GOE on +1.5 instead of the +0.5 that she got today. Also how come her combination didnt get a single +5? I dont see how it could be better it has -Transistions -speed -height -good positions -good takeoff and landings -matching the music. So I would like to sneak in another +0.5 In GOE here.
My new score 77.25

5 Liza
I would like for her to score better but when she misses the landing on the 3A, "only" does a 3T+3T (and doesnt backload it) as well as missing levels on the StSq and the CCoSp I have to agree with the score here. If she wants to challenge she really need to work on her spinns because apart from losing levels she also gets relatively low GOE on the compared to her competitors. The only change I would make is that I think the judges could show a bit more appreciation for the best 3Lz in the field (now that she has also added trasitions before and had good glide on the landing) so another +0.5 in GOE here. I want to add that I do enjoy watching her skate and hope that she keeps going even if her scoring potential is limited by spinns and SS.
My new score 74.06

So my top 5 would be:
1 Anna 79.30
2 Kamilla 78.65
3 Sasha 77.25
4 Daria 75.50
5 Liza 74.06

So in the end the only places I eneded up changing was Sasha and Daria and I stand by that choice. Otherwise I brought the field together somewhat because I do think Anna and Kamilla should be slightly closer to the rest than they where.

Feel free to disagree with me but I would prefer constructive arguments above trash talk and name calling

I like this well thought out post. Thanks!

However, Nastia G's 3Lz WAS called - she got a ! and q. Sofia got an < on hers - so not an edge call but not clean either. Daria should definitely have been called. However, Anna and Kamila's are at worst an ! and don't even tend to get called internationally.

 

[flanker]

Also, speaking of favouritism, I thought Maiia's PCS were lower than they could have been, comparatively, especially for one of the "favoured". I would not have been surprised to see Maiia (who was clean) above Liza, considering her little mistakes.

I agree, that's what I've mentioned above. If the is a kind of favouritism, it is much more connected with the skater than with the team. Not that the othe

By the courtesy of another poster (I shamelessly copy pasted the link here, apologies for that. )

If you believe Daria‘s lutz edge deserves ! rather than e, tell me, which one‘s her flip and which one‘s her lutz.

usacheva hosted at ImgBB

Image usacheva hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

I‘ll admit I couldn‘t do it and I have no idea what the right answer is.

It's flat edge in both cases, if I can make a judgement from the blurry small pixelized pictures, to what some local experts has particular affinity that I don't share

But I should repeat: it started with the complain (not mine) was: why Daria didn't receive "!". At that very event Sasha has clear outside edge on her Flip, it was not flat. And when particular people claim how this was not called flat, while completely ignoring that other skater had clean wrong edge, not flat edfe, then there can be hardly any agreement. I am definitely not the one who is starting such conversations, so argumwentation "I will care about skater's XY edge only when you will care about skater's AB edge" from the people who always start this with only pointing out the "wrong calls/no calls" in particular cases and ignore them in other cases means nothing for me but completely bad try.

My point is: yes, there were and are cases when some skaters didn't receive calls they should. But the line is not where the most loud people put it, because this so called "favouritism" didn't affect just one particular group as they always try to impose.

 

[chasingneverland]

That's exactly the scandal, because compared to the previous year, Sasha has improved much more (!) than Anna. However, this significant improvement is not reflected in the ratings.

I actually disagree. I think Sasha's interpretation improved but her step sequence was still a mess. Also Anna performed that SP better than she has all season, aside from the spin and even then she didn't let it affect the performance. I still think Anna's light years ahead performance and interpretation wise than Sasha. If anything, compared to Kamila, I think Anna's PCS were actually too low.

EDIT: Basically, I agree with most placements and PCS, relatively speaking. I DO think Daria should have had an edge call so I would have had Sasha third and Daria 4th.

 

[colormyworld240]

That's exactly the scandal, because compared to the previous year, Sasha has improved much more (!) than Anna. However, this significant improvement is not reflected in the ratings.

Completely disagree. I do see improvement in Sasha in that she is not rushing as much, but there is no way she isn’t 3+ points below Anna in PCS, even accounting for her better SS. Watching their skates side by side, there couldn’t be a clearer difference between who is performing their choreography and expressing and moving to the music and who is just doing the choreography they were taught. And it’s not just the difference in artistry but also the quality of the movements; soft arms, movement in the body, extensions, posture.

 

[Tolstoj]

I really dislike Plyuschenko's behaviour. But.... these two statements are a bit contradictory... Mishin always has a
pokerface whenever his skaters are judged more strictly than others. Did it bring much good to them? To put it
straight, it seems that they are telling Sofiya to get lost, she is not needed. Whatever she does.
As a guess, judges have some instruction, maybe seminars where their attention is attracted to some flaw in a skater's technique. And not attracted to other skaters' problems. Then, psychologically, it is easier to see that flaw
than to overlook it, and overlook all flaws they hadn't discussed before the competition.

Yeah that's what you have to deal in FS, either callout the nonsense, at the risk of creating enemies around you, or stay silent and get robbed potentially forever.

But here's the thing, if they can make Trusova more consistent, she still can beat anyone in the free, even when with the most insane pushing for the other team. Valieva has 2 quads and hasn't skated a clean free skate all season thus far, i know it'll be a 148-150 minimum even with 3 falls, but with 3-4 quads you can outscore that.

So i'd say it's better to keep it for your own or discuss scores afterwards in social media, ask Federation, judges,... and in the meantime try to get Trusova consistent.

 

[Vilord]

However, Nastia G's 3Lz WAS called - she got a ! and q. Sofia got an < on hers - so not an edge call but not clean either. Daria should definitely have been called. However, Anna and Kamila's are at worst an ! and don't even tend to get called internationally.

I missed that Nastya G was called. I would like to clarify that I dont expect either Anna or Kamilla to get called bacause as you said they are mostly flat but my point was that so is Sashas 3F (along with most others that I mentioned). My point is that either you give everyone with flat edges ! or you give none (same with e and <). I highly dislike when some skaters get calls and others dont for jumps with the same issues

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I watched the whole competition. I have to say that I am quite impressed with Nugumanova, Talalaikina and Molchanova. Elegant, artistic, feminine. Maya was definitely underscored today. I was not impressed with any of The Top 5 ladies, sorry. They all looked not in top form.
I miss Alyona. She and Yuna Kim are the best ladies figure skaters to me. I also feel bad that Alina is not skating anymore. She is much more special than Shcherbakova and Valieva. I wish Alyona, Alina and Ksenia Sinitsyna could be in the 2022 Olympic team. I do not care about ladies quads much...

 

[Vilord]

That's exactly the scandal, because compared to the previous year, Sasha has improved much more (!) than Anna. However, this significant improvement is not reflected in the ratings.

I think the problem relly is that Sasha got higher PCS than she deserved last season but has finaly developed into the scores shes getting. Anna and Kamilla is still ahead in this department though

 

[Fluture]

It's flat edge in both cases

Oh, that‘s fascinating. So, according to your judgement Daria should get ! on both flip and lutz, since flip‘s supposed to take off from an inside, and lutz from an outside edge?

As for the rest: Respectfully, I have no interest in discussing who did what first and which comments are biased or not. If I have a problem with a poster‘s comment, I‘ll say so directly or report it.

 

[flanker]

Oh, that‘s fascinating. So, according to your judgement Daria should get ! on both flip and lutz, since flip‘s supposed to take off from an inside, and lutz from an outside edge?

As for the rest: Respectfully, I have no interest in discussing who did what first and which comments are biased or not. If I have a problem with a poster‘s comment, I‘ll say so directly or report it.

The other thing is that I don't know whether this moment is the bounce.

BTW I'm not even the one who started the blame "who started"

 

[Tolstoj]

Okay. So comparing PCS with last year.

Anna got: 37.80 this year and 36.07 last year. (She got 35.17 at Euros.)
Sasha got: 35.45 this year and 34.83 last year. (She got 34.42 at Euros.)
Both were fairly clean. So, not crazy differences from last year and Anna is the 2x defending Russian champion. And the skater with the most impressive resume in the past year (other than maybe Kamila) that was there. (They're getting Alena/Evgenia/Alina PCS but they're not here and it's not like Anna and Kamila don't score super well internationally PCS wise.) It's also not like Sasha's PCS dropped.
For comparison, Liza got: 35.40 this year and 34.65 last year.

Also looking at Kamila's 3Lz-3T. She got 12.88 at Junior Worlds and 13.39 here. For comparison, Sasha's 3Lz-3T got a 13.22 here and a 13.05 at nationals last year and a 13.05 at Euros. Anna's 3Lz-3Lo got a 14.07 here and a 13.82 at nationals last year and a 13.48 at Euros.
So higher yes, but considering nationals, not crazily.

This is all true if we assume they all skated clean. But they didn't.

Shouldn't the fall on one jump out of 3 (in the so-called Technical Program) also be reflected in the PCS? I mean, how can you give a 9.5-10 for that?

 

[nussnacker]

ma gurl Maiia getting under appreciated, what else is new...
I think the reason Eteri keeps including a quad for Maiia, although it doesn’t appear as ready, is purely for political reasons. Maiia has been quite a bit behind both Daria and Kamila in terms of results due to inconsistency at her first junior season, not getting into JGPF, not making podium at JrNats. In order to be considered a top athlete and as a possible contender for Olympic spots, she needs to remind judges she has quads/working on them. Otherwise, it is too easy to get lost amongst numerous talented ladies. This helps her to stand out to some degree and be in the mind of judges as the girl who can potentially land quads and score a lot.

 

[starlight97]

I dislike Plushenko strongly and Sasha is my "least" favorite out of the 3 former Eteri girls - but this has been the first time I really felt and agreed with his reaction in the Kiss&Cry. While not very professional to show it like that, if I was him or Sasha I would have felt the same.

Anna skated beautifully but messed up her spin, Kamila skated beautifully but fell. Sasha went clean with minimally lower tech value than Anna. And in the eyes of her team, they don't perceive her as that inferior in PCS (they really try their hardest with that SP), so they're like: what the h*ll. Add in the conspiracy theories Russians and skating fans love and there you go