2020-21 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Noxchild]

Nathan does it again...

 

[Tinymavy15]

Nathan had a moment of being Human....and then he got mad and got back to being a serious cyborg. Amazing. I’m so excited for this Olympic season.

 

[TontoK]

If reports are correct that Vincent is injured, and he knew about that injury before departing for Sweden, I am extremely disappointed, and I have a question: Was this disclosed to USFSA?

He could have withdrawn with no damage to his reputation, and there is a stable of other US men who could have qualified for the free skate. Disclaimer: I don't know if there is a deadline for subbing a skater out... but still. If nothing else, USFSA could have given the spot to one of the alternates and given him valuable experience, while being no worse off than they are now in terms of secured Olympic berths.

 

[discode]

Congrats Nathan and Jason did really well. Stood on his feet for the quad! His SP is magical. And Vincent always seems to have some sort of injury.

 

[moonvine]

If reports are correct that Vincent is injured, and he knew about that injury before departing for Sweden, I am extremely disappointed, and I have a question: Was this disclosed to USFSA?

He could have withdrawn with no damage to his reputation, and there is a stable of other US men who could have qualified for the free skate. Disclaimer: I don't know if there is a deadline for subbing a skater out... but still. If nothing else, USFSA could have given the spot to one of the alternates and given him valuable experience, while being no worse off than they are now in terms of secured Olympic berths.

He stated he was injured. I am inclined to believe him.

 

[alexaa]

Congrats Nathan and Jason did really well. Stood on his feet for the quad! His SP is magical. And Vincent always seems to have some sort of injury.

It was just like 2018, it was revealed afte the free skates that he was injured the week he left for the worlds. I was just wondering why the team insisted on a 5 quad layout if he had a recent injury and in the process of recovering.

 

[ice coverage]

Thank you to Nathan and Jason for enabling Team USA to compete for a third OWG spot at Nebelhorn.

---

If reports are correct that Vincent is injured, and he knew about that injury before departing for Sweden, I am extremely disappointed, and I have a question: Was this disclosed to USFSA? ...

My guess is that Vincent did properly notify USFS of his injury before departure for Sweden.
In the long run, going behind the back of USFS would not have been in his best interest. I believe that Christy Krall and he would want to stay on good terms with USFS.

In any case, I do not think it should be assumed that Vincent did not inform USFS beforehand -- unless/until more information comes to light.
(Tonto asked a question -- without making that assumption -- and I am fine with that.)

As for when Vincent shared his injury with the entire world via Instagram (as opposed to when he privately notified USFS), it is understandable to me that Vincent waited until after competition.
I remember Tessa and Scott saying (I'm paraphrasing) that if judges know that you are injured, they likely will be on the lookout for effects of the injury on your skating, and that it is a bad idea to create that mindset among judges.

 

[mrrice]

Congrats Nathan and Jason did really well. Stood on his feet for the quad! His SP is magical. And Vincent always seems to have some sort of injury.

It doesn't air until this afternoon in California but, I am so happy and proud of both of our Men. Even without Vincent, they kept our 3 spots and Nathan once again has set himself as the favorite for the OGM. Looks like he was brilliant this afternoon and proved that when he's on, he is unbeatable. What an event for our US skaters.

 

[Dogo]

I finally saw Nathan reaching the full potential of his FP. What a treat. Just so very beautiful.

I think it is very hard to dispute the PCs given to him knowing that one has to be crazy good to be able to display your artistry (and not crumble under the mental pressure of the competition like Kolyada) while still making sure that you have the stamina left for those majestic jumps.

Hanyu and Brown were beautiful despite the errors, but for me Nathan artistry was truly special, one-of-a-kind, and in full display today.

 

[el henry]

Just like 2017, Nathan and Jason get the job done.

That FS has to the best I have ever seen Nathan skate, complete props. And Jason's SP is one of the best programs, period, I've ever seen; props to him and Rohene.

I realize we still have Nebelhorn, but I am sighing with relief.

 

[fzztsimmons]

Jason's quad went up and came down on one foot. I literally don't care that it was under, so are half of the other men's quads. I'm just glad he got it out there and carried on with the rest of the performance. I thought Jason was ridiculously undermarked in PCS (as were others) but I don't have the energy to get into it. All I can say is how on earth do you give him an 8.5 in transitions when he does a literal twizzling knee slide across the ice into a perfect camel spin. Some of his GOEs were also stingy for the jumps he did land cleanly. His FS is not my favourite of his, but his SP remains a masterpiece, and as Mark Hanretty said, "the best choreographed men's short programme ever"

Glad Nathan and Jason got those (to be confirmed) three spots.

 

[1111bm]

I thought Jason was ridiculously undermarked in PCS (as were others) but I don't have the energy to get into it. All I can say is how on earth do you give him an 8.5 in transitions when he does a literal twizzling knee slide across the ice into a perfect camel spin. Some of his GOEs were also stingy for the jumps he did land cleanly.

Wasn't that knee slide one of his level features i.e. difficult entry into a spin? So it actually shouldn't get counted towards his transitions component. And he got 4s and 5s in GOE for that spin, so I don't get the complaint. Some of the judges might've also counted it as part of his choreo sequence, and he received many 4s and 5s and a couple 3s for that (also personally I don't find knee slides particularly special, there was quite a trend 1-2 season ago with everyone and their mom doing one, albeit not as a spin entry).

Also his Flutz never seems to get called and he would lose around 3 points if it did (so that's -6 points at this comp). His second 3A was UR but didn't get called either. Pretty sure that 'makes up' for any 'ridiculous PCS losses'...

 

[Tavi...]

Wasn't that knee slide one of his level features i.e. difficult entry into a spin? So it actually shouldn't get counted towards his transitions component. And he got 4s and 5s in GOE for that spin, so I don't get the complaint. Some of the judges might've also counted it as part of his choreo sequence, and he received many 4s and 5s and a couple 3s for that (also personally I don't find knee slides particularly special, there was quite a trend 1-2 season ago with everyone and their mom doing one, albeit not as a spin entry).

Also his Flutz never seems to get called and he would lose around 3 points if it did (so that's -6 points at this comp). His second 3A was UR but didn't get called either. Pretty sure that 'makes up' for any 'ridiculous PCS losses'...

It would be really nice if you could appreciate Nathan’s well-deserved win here without feeling the need to diminish his teammate’s accomplishments by engaging in this kind of speculative “analysis.”

Objectively, Jason’s marks in all categories (GOE, PCS, totals, etc) for both programs were well under his international personal bests, with the exception of SP PCS, which was slightly higher. He got lower GOE on most of his elements, including spins and footwork. A thoughtful analysis might look at some of his other performances and ask whether the lower GOE and PCS he received here was due to program construction, errors, his actual performance quality at this competition, or something outside of his control, like the judging panel. I haven’t done that analysis myself. But FWIW, both Mark Henretty and Jackie Wong felt that objectively and in comparison to the other men here, Jason deserved higher PCS.

 

[TontoK]

Just like 2017, Nathan and Jason get the job done.

That FS has to the best I have ever seen Nathan skate, complete props. And Jason's SP is one of the best programs, period, I've ever seen; props to him and Rohene.

I realize we still have Nebelhorn, but I am sighing with relief.

It's the first LP performance of Nathan's I have really LOVED. For me, his short programs have always been better.

Don't get me wrong... I'm a fan, and I really admired the Olympic season, LOA, and Rocket Man... but I didn't LOVE them... they are not in my frequently watched "pile." In fact, this is the first time I've loved this program. I thought it was flat every time I've seen it previously.

Part of that might be this is the first sparkling clean outing... but I think part of it was the first time I've felt like HE felt it.

 

[ramurphy2005]

In fact, this is the first time I've loved this program. I thought it was flat every time I've seen it previously

Part of that might be this is the first sparkling clean outing... but I think part of it was the first time I've felt like HE felt it.

I saw the potential in it the first few times I saw it. It's one of those pieces of music where everything has to be on in order for it to work. All the little mistakes in previous outings killed the mood he was trying to create.

I think he was able to feel it because he was in the zone with his jumps.

 

[1111bm]

It would be really nice if you could appreciate Nathan’s well-deserved win here without feeling the need to diminish his teammate’s accomplishments by engaging in this kind of speculative “analysis.”

Objectively, Jason’s marks in all categories (GOE, PCS, totals, etc) for both programs were well under his international personal bests, with the exception of SP PCS, which was slightly higher. He got lower GOE on most of his elements, including spins and footwork. A thoughtful analysis might look at some of his other performances and ask whether the lower GOE and PCS he received here was due to program construction, errors, his actual performance quality at this competition, or something outside of his control, like the judging panel. I haven’t done that analysis myself. But FWIW, both Mark Henretty and Jackie Wong felt that objectively and in comparison to the other men here, Jason deserved higher PCS.

I was not diminishing Jason’s accomplishments, I was just reacting to a post that I disagreed with.

I just think it’s dishonest to take a one-sided he-was-robbed view and only complain about the areas where Jason was underappreciated by the judges, without acknowledging that he realistically speaking also benefitted from the tech panel overlooking very obvious mistakes.

I would also love to know what’s so „speculative“ about my „analysis“?
That knee slide was clearly a level feature (if it wasn’t, I’d genuinely like to know what his 4th level was, because I didn’t see anything else) and again, we see knee slides regularly as part of step and choreo sequences.
It is also known that Jason has a Flutz and it was very obvious in both programs, the under-rotation was also pretty obvious (not all of them are, but this one was). It is also easy to calculate the potential points loss if these mistakes had been called, it’s basic math, nothing „speculative“ about it.

(I also find that it shows ppl’s bias when there’s constant complaints about eteri/russian girls ‚getting away‘ with wrong edges, but then it’s widely accepted that Jason has a Flutz but somehow most ppl seem to be ok with it never getting called. But that’s a different topic I guess)

And if anyone looked at the scoresheets, they would see that this judging panel was generally not overly generous with GOE, compared to other big competitions. Even skaters like Yuzu and Nathan didn’t get showered with 4s and 5s the way they oftentimes do whenever they skate well.
So it’s not like Jason was singled out and held down, so maybe before complaining about his low GOE, fans should look at the way these judges handed out GOE overall.

 

[lurkz2]

I saw the potential in it the first few times I saw it. It's one of those pieces of music where everything has to be on in order for it to work. All the little mistakes in previous outings killed the mood he was trying to create.

I think he was able to feel it because he was in the zone with his jumps.

Before this definitive one the first outing was my favorite version. Its beauty is in the flow and in the other outings he's been relatively tentative, slow and measured in the first half. This is the first time that I felt he really went all out from the beginning.

 

[Tavi...]

I was not diminishing Jason’s accomplishments, I was just reacting to a post that I disagreed with.

I just think it’s dishonest to take a one-sided he-was-robbed view and only complain about the areas where Jason was underappreciated by the judges, without acknowledging that he realistically speaking also benefitted from the tech panel overlooking very obvious mistakes.

I would also love to know what’s so „speculative“ about my „analysis“?
That knee slide was clearly a level feature (if it wasn’t, I’d genuinely like to know what his 4th level was, because I didn’t see anything else) and again, we see knee slides regularly as part of step and choreo sequences.
It is also known that Jason has a Flutz and it was very obvious in both programs, the under-rotation was also pretty obvious (not all of them are, but this one was). It is also easy to calculate the potential points loss if these mistakes had been called, it’s basic math, nothing „speculative“ about it.

(I also find that it shows ppl’s bias when there’s constant complaints about eteri/russian girls ‚getting away‘ with wrong edges, but then it’s widely accepted that Jason has a Flutz but somehow most ppl seem to be ok with it never getting called. But that’s a different topic I guess)

And if anyone looked at the scoresheets, they would see that this judging panel was generally not overly generous with GOE, compared to other big competitions. Even skaters like Yuzu and Nathan didn’t get showered with 4s and 5s the way they oftentimes do whenever they skate well.
So it’s not like Jason was singled out and held down, so maybe before complaining about his low GOE, fans should look at the way these judges handed out GOE overall.

Thanks for confirming that you weren’t trying to disminish Jason’s accomplishments - much appreciated.

Regarding why I called your analysis speculative, it’s simply because you were guessing but don’t actually know why those marks were given. That’s the definition of speculation. To state the obvious, the judging panel isn’t a monolith but a group of 9 individuals, each of whom may have had a different motivation for giving the marks they did. Or not. I tend to think that most judges aren’t debating whether a specific movement like the knee slide counts as a difficult entry or a transition, and rather go with an overall impression - but that’s just MY speculation.

Regarding the under rotation and the cost of errors, I don’t think anyone was complaining that this 4S was fully rotated and that he should have gotten full credit? I certainly wasn’t. Similarly, I wouldn’t argue that he shouldn’t have gotten dinged in the FS, for the two foot on the 3A, the 2T instead of the 3T, or the V on his spin. As you said, it’s easy enough to calculate the points he lost on those things, and I don’t think anyone would dispute that he lost those points fair and square.

Regarding Jason’s flutz, all I’m going to say is that he’s far from the only skater that benefits from this kind of thing - judging panels frequently overlook errors for many skaters and award high GOE for jumps with bent over landing positions, wobbly landings on toepicks, landings with no ride out, slow or traveling spins, etc. So unless you analyze all the other errors skaters got away with in this competition, I’m not sure it’s necessary to take it into account in connection with the fairness of Jason’s scores.

Finally, regarding GOE, I’m not sure if you were referring to my comment that his GOE was low, but I personally wasn’t wuzrobbing him. It’s something I noticed, and I did in fact notice in the protocols that GOE was somewhat lower across the board. I did find it surprising that his error free SP here was scored more than 5 points lower than his error free 2019 Worlds SP with the same elements. And I did have to laugh that one judge awarded him 0 GOE on a spin. But inconsistency in judging panels happens sometimes.

Cheers

 

[TontoK]

Just skimmed the TSL recap with Todd Eldridge.

Todd dropped some hints about Yaro's upcoming short program. He said it would be dance-y and fun. I had seen some video of Yaro playing around with a Back Street Boys tune. Now I'm wondering if that wasn't an exhibition piece, but his Short Program.

That would be very entertaining.

Also, looks like they've had assurances from Ukraine on Yaro's release, and they're still waiting on the citizenship issue to resolve - but he sounded very positive about it. I take it there is some portion of the process that Yaro got to skip because it had been achieved during his green card process. I'm completely unfamiliar with what specific steps are involved in acquiring US citizenship, so I'll take his word that things are looking good.

Edit: Here's the link to the BSB footage I referenced: https://www.instagram.com/p/CMiZrCXJUCf/

 

[alexaa]

Both Nathan and Jason would be on WTT team

U.S. Figure Skating Announces U.S. Team for World Team Trophy, Television Times - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

U.S. Figure Skating has announced the athletes chosen to represent the United States at ISU World Team Trophy 2021, as well as television times on NBCSN. The competition,

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出場選手｜世界フィギュアスケート国別対抗戦2021｜テレビ朝日

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