2020 Skate America: Ladies' SP

[skylark]

The scoring should have been much closer between Bradie and Mariah. I don't get the 3-point difference on PCS based on what they both did here. There's not much difference. I'm not as enthused about Mariah's programs this season. I actually enjoyed Bradie's programs better last season too. But they both performed here and the point gap is questionable.

There's only a .5 difference in PCS. The rest of Mariah's lead came from the TSS. Bradie lost about 3 points from the program's end scoring to the K&C final score.

ETA: https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2020/29710/CAT002SEG003.html

 

[katymay]

What do you guys think about the scoring though? Last year at SA, they overscored Scherbakova in the sp, simply because of all the quad rep, though no quad in the sp and she made a mistake on a jump and fell. Plus, she was a newbie to seniors and should NOT have been rated that high unless she actually went clean. She should have been behind Liza Tut in the sp for sure but the judges refused to be fair to Liza.

Here IMO, it is quite obvious that U.S. fed has finally gotten fully on board with Mariah. They are trying to make up for the fact that Mariah absolutely should have won U.S. Nationals in January. Stop rewarding young phenoms with multiple rotation jumps until they have developed more experience and more artistry. I just can't with the way this sport is run since forever with the political scoring.

I enjoy Mariah tremendously. But January was her moment, and U.S. fed chose to stick with Alysa Liu, just to keep hyping her for the future, instead of rewarding current hardworking seniors who are trying to make headway internationally. Now U.S. fed is working overtime in getting behind Mariah in a big way. Of course, Mariah deserves credit for breaking through and being on point mentally and physically, but Bradie works just as hard, and she's just as hungry, talented and deserving. The scoring should have been much closer between Bradie and Mariah. I don't get the 3-point difference on PCS based on what they both did here. There's not much difference. I'm not as enthused about Mariah's programs this season. I actually enjoyed Bradie's programs better last season too. But they both performed here and the point gap is questionable.

Bradies program is far more sophisticated and difficult. Did she carry it off? Well, almost. It isn't there yet, but when it is-by January-there would be no excuse to judge her lower than Mariah. I think Mariah should have gotten two edge calls, and downgraded second jump on the combo-none of which was called. They did downgrade Bradies combo.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I actually don't think Mariah's free skate at US Nationals was quite as outstanding as the US fed is making it out to be. Not all of her landings were smooth. She had similar performances at other international competitions that season, yet her US Nationals skate is made out to be some iconic performance that had never been seen before. It feels like the US is the only country that really dwells on US Nationals performances, whereas other countries seem to focus more on international skates, as it should be. Alysa had a technical edge, and probably would have still won even if it was an international competition. Even if it's sometimes frustrating, young girls with underdeveloped artistry who land big jumps are getting points for them in IJS.

Regardless, nothing at all that happened at US Nationals a year ago should influence how a technical caller calls a 3F-3T combination. If it's underrotated, it's underrotated. And a technical panel should be held accountable for their calls.

LOL. U.S. Nationals 2020 was more of a hurdle and a huge breakthrough for Mariah. It was exciting to see her skate clean, even though she does have some slight tech weaknesses to work on finessing more. I get the weaknesses you are pointing out. But I gotta give Mariah props. Do any of us who have never skated actually realize how freaking tough this sport is, and how incredible it is what these skaters managed to do on the ice!!!

Add in all the training and strategy and regular life happening that they have to juggle, and staying fit and eating right. Plus the choreography, music selection (editing, etc), costumes, skate preparation, maintenance and staying on top of breaking-in new skates. Not to mention the awful scoring system and the antiquated politics and competition structure that makes it so hard to reach the top. This sport is a headache and a half, and then some! Boy, as an athlete, you really have to love skating and competing. The financial nightmare costs are a whole 'nother can of worms to navigate, especially if you haven't broken through to mid or top tier recognition. We all know this, but we don't always factor this in to our critiques of skaters.

I honestly do not know how the best of them manage to keep their cool when performing, after all it takes to get to that point, and knowing what's riding on each performance opportunity! Witness the nerves that were clearly evident in Starr's, Amber's, and Gracie's performances.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

There's only a .5 difference in PCS. The rest of Mariah's lead came from the TSS. Bradie lost about 3 points from the program's end scoring to the K&C final score.

ETA: https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2020/29710/CAT002SEG003.html

Thanks. I didn't really see the PCS scores on screen, so I was guessing. Thanks for the correction.

 

[gold12345]

LOL. U.S. Nationals 2020 was more of a hurdle and a huge breakthrough for Mariah. It was exciting to see her skate clean, even though she does have some slight tech weaknesses to work on finessing more. I get the weaknesses you are pointing out. But I gotta give Mariah props. Do any of us who have never skated actually realize how freaking tough this sport is, and how incredible it is what these skaters managed to do on the ice!!!

Add in all the training and strategy and regular life happening that they have to juggle, and staying fit and eating right. Plus the choreography, music selection (editing, etc), costumes, skate preparation, maintenance and staying on top of breaking-in new skates. Not to mention the awful scoring system and the antiquated politics and competition structure that makes it so hard to reach the top. This sport is a headache and a half, and then some! Boy, as an athlete, you really have to love skating and competing. The financial nightmare costs are a whole 'nother can of worms to navigate, especially if you haven't broken through to mid or top tier recognition. We all know this, but we don't always factor this in to our critiques of skaters.

I honestly do not know how the best of them manage to keep their cool when performing, after all it takes to get to that point, and knowing what's riding on each performance opportunity! Witness the nerves that were clearly evident in Starr's, Amber's, and Gracie's performances.

No doubt Mariah had an outstanding moment at last season's Nationals and a personal breakthrough. And I realize how difficult the pressure of US Nationals is, especially because the US seems to put so much stock in it, more so than other countries. But I still don't think a competition from last season should have anything to do with this new competition season. Her 3F-3T today wasn't as good as she has done them in the past, and she is capable of more. And we can't just ignore an underrotated jump because that person skated a clean program at last year's Nationals. Other sports would think we were insane.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I already knew the USFSA favored Mariah over Bradie after last year's nationals SP when a flawless Bradie only beat Mariah by 5.74 points despite Mariah falling on a required technical element. It's even more clear here when Bradie gets called on her combo (rightfully so!) and Mariah doesn't.

Also watching both back to back only emphasized just how EMPTY Mariah's program was. It was all facial expressions and arms movements and nothing else.

 

[Skatefan15]

I already knew the USFSA favored Mariah over Bradie after last year's nationals SP when a flawless Bradie only beat Mariah by 5.74 points despite Mariah falling on a required technical element. It's even more clear here when Bradie gets called on her combo (rightfully so!) and Mariah doesn't.

Also watching both back to back only emphasized just how EMPTY Mariah's program was. It was all facial expressions and arms movements and nothing else.

I agree with everything you said. You would think the US would at least try and be less obvious who they are favoring! Also yeah her programs to me are always just facial expressions with no transitions or anything...

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

No doubt Mariah had an outstanding moment at last season's Nationals and a personal breakthrough. And I realize how difficult the pressure of US Nationals is, especially because the US seems to put so much stock in it, more so than other countries. But I still don't think a competition from last season should have anything to do with this new competition season. Her 3F-3T today wasn't as good as she has done them in the past, and she is capable of more. And we can't just ignore an underrotated jump because that person skated a clean program at last year's Nationals. Other sports would think we were insane.

No one is saying judges should ignore the actual current performance. What I am talking about is the sport and how it operates. FYI: Whether it's fair or not, what skaters have done in previous performances DOES MATTER. It's part of their rep and the buzz. Surely you are aware of that factor. I don't think that's how it should work, but we can't deny that buzz, rep, and politics are factors in how athletes are scored.

The reason U.S. Nationals matters more than Nationals in some countries is quite obvious. I'm pretty sure I don't need to explain why! It's the same way that Nationals matters in Japan and Russia. So your comment is head-scratching: "U.S. seems to put so much stock in it." U.S. Nationals is the bomb! It's highly coveted just to make it to U.S. Nationals because it's extremely competitive in the U.S. just to get there, and once you're there trying to work your way up, it only gets harder. There's so much competition, which obviously is not the case in most European countries except for Russia (and in Asian countries too, especially singles in Japan). You surely don't require a primer on how figure skating works and how it developed historically and politically, do you?

What I'm referencing is the politics of the scoring, so it would be nice if we could stay on point and meet each other intelligently in discussing these different aspects of scoring and politics. As I said previously, I don't disagree with your points about Mariah's weak areas on some of her tech, but your comments above are straying from making your case. Who said anything about upholding judges ignoring an underrotated jump? It's useless to have a conversation if you are going to start purposely misinterpreting what I've said.

My point is that Mariah and Bradie both skated well, despite both having some minor tech issues. Yet the judges chose to place Mariah first by what I think is too great a margin. As someone else pointed out, Bradie's tech issues received points off, while Mariah's slight problems were ignored by the judges. Figure skating is not an easy sport to judge. But the tech panel should be able to pick up any problems on replay. I wasn't focusing on tech issues in my comments though. I merely said that it's quite clear to me U.S. fed is getting behind Mariah (i.e., favoriting her moreso post her breakthrough at U.S. Nationals). I didn't say I agree with the favoriting, I simply made note of it. In my opinion, the favoriting in part has to do with the fact that Mariah should have won overall in January vs the less experienced and immature Alysa Liu who needs more seasoning with both her tech and her presentation.

Nowhere did I say that U.S. fed is right to embiggen Mariah now blindly to make up for not judging more responsibly at U.S. Nationals. I critiqued that the judges seem to be trying to make up for Mariah not winning in January, when she skated a winning performance. It doesn't matter whether you thought her performance was great or not at U.S. Nationals. It was very exciting and a wonderful breakthrough for Mariah. Alysa Liu's performance in January, IMO is forgettable, despite her multiple rotations.

BTW, are you from the U.S. or somewhere else?

 

[moonvine]

Oh no...Gracie...what happened?

 

[moonvine]

I see Chris Knierim in the front row!
Let’s work on that expression, Chris. You look like you’re made of cardboard

And along with him are Alexas mom, one of their pets and I believe Brandon’s dog.

 

[moonvine]

Only the judges have to be impartial, the rest of us get to grade her on a curve

...the curve of our hearts

In the curve of my heart she is #1 and cannot ever be unseated. Dang it. I hope she doesn’t get discouraged.

 

[ManyCairns]

Hi all..

So I have vacuumed the grumpy coach so there is no longer dog and cat fur on it ....

So did your grumpy coach enjoy being vacuumed and cleaned of all fur?

 

[Mathman]

I was disappointed in the music selections. One uninspired generic pop song after another. I didn't think that bthe music helped any of the ladies. (It was better overall in mens.)

Bring back classical -- give the skaters soemthing to get their teeth into.

 

[Edwin]

ISU complete women's short program stream not available anymore? already cut up in different routines? YT music rights bot struck again?

Agree about the music, too many 'young adult serious' cuts/mixes or without heads or tails or even highlights and accents how to describe it?

 

[Mathman]

About Mariah and the USFSA, I think that the federation was always ready to push her to the fore. The problem was, she always made ne or two costly mistakes that made it impossible for the judges to place her any higher.

This was a satisfying and mistake-free performance, although I agree with those posters who felt that Bradie's program has greater originality and stronger potential.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I was disappointed in the music selections. One uninspired generic pop song after another. I didn't think that bthe music helped any of the ladies. (It was better overall in mens.)

Bring back classical -- give the skaters soemthing to get their teeth into.

I think in general, the athletes just need to have music consultants and search more far and wide to find interesting, unusual music, instead of settling for popular tunes so much. Classical doesn't always work for everyone, so I don't think it's necessary to 'go back to classical.' It's more of think outside the box. Sometimes classical mixed with pop, or jazz, or rock can be fun. There's a lot of music out there that skaters don't tap into. Quite often it's a classical warhorse, or other types of tunes that have been used to death, or gained popular attention in figure skating, so everyone goes to that same well. For example, Benjamin Clementine's Nemesis has been used by other skaters after Nathan introduced it. Hallelujah in different versions has been used to death. Claire de Lune has been used often, usually with great success for skaters.

I dislike Mariah Bell's fp music. I get her and Adam wanting to be hip and fresh, but I think last season's Work B*tch was enough. It's not particularly Mariah's style, but a lot of skaters seem to want to copy that bold, edgy take. Even Bradie this season seems to be moving in a hip direction thematically and musically.

There are other directions that can work. And there's plenty of music that goes untapped. Skaters need music consultants.

 

[lurkz2]

I dislike Mariah Bell's fp music. I get her and Adam wanting to be hip and fresh, but I think last season's Work B*tch was enough. It's not particularly Mariah's style, but a lot of skaters seem to want to copy that bold, edgy take. Even Bradie this season seems to be moving in a hip direction thematically and musically.

Ehm Work B*tch was on Adam but I think Shae Lynn was the one who proposed the Abba music.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Adam should beware of trying to remake Mariah so heavily into some tough sass version of himself. Not necessary really. Mariah looks stronger and more confident, but sometimes her movements look a bit jerky. I want to see her go back to some softer aesthetic. Or choose a character theme, like a movie character (similar to the Sabrina soundtrack that Eun-soo Lim used). Yeah, I know I shouldn't refer to Lim and Bell in the same breath (LOL). Anyway, not that particular character for Mariah, but maybe something dramatic like the Laura movie soundtrack, or maybe some other film which starred Audrey Hepburn (aside from Sabrina).

Here are some ideas. The soundtrack to 2005's Pride and Prejudice is wonderful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iQ6sMiMITQ Romantic movie soundtrack mix (including from Pride and Prejudice)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZsiabYq7bw Heartwarming and emotional tracks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_-2Iz-JXpY Soundtrack to The Crown (main theme by Hans Zimmer)

Something classical, why not check out music choreographed to by Balanchine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYwIOer3sc Concerto Barocco

Merrill Ashley in tour de force solo of Ballo della Regina:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFXFeztRGFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpmL_NeiAU La Sonnambula

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM_91kZVQ1o

Who Cares (Gershwin)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud8zVcHPnuM Agon (Stravinsky)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd9R9S6-9E4 Serenade

A young dance team should skate to Waltz of the Flowers (seems made for Nguyen/Kolesnik, but they are no longer a team, sadly)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKcZL8q1eBw

But everyone wants to be cool, up-to-date and fresh. Still, there's lots of different, unusual non-classical music out there to explore that goes uncovered, and untapped.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Ehm Work B*tch was on Adam but I think Shae Lynn was the one who proposed the Abba music.

Oh I liked Work B*tch for Mariah. It was a departure and a stretch, which was good. It worked. Abba doesn't work that well, maybe because of the music cuts. But maybe it will get better by the end of the season (fingers-crossed). Shae Lynn usually tends to make good choices for the skaters she works with on choreo.

The video of Adam working with Mariah on Work B*tch is very cool and fun to watch.

 

[Greengemmonster]

Gooo Bradie!!!!! Loved her program, speed and transitions! She just needs to be squeaky clean with those jumps or else they will be going after her for blood.

I swear I never thought I would say this after the Olympics but here I am saying it. Bradie is one of the most interesting skaters with interesting programs! I've been such a fan of hers since 2018 (after Olympics).