2021–22 Canadian Figure Skating

[4everchan]

Putting on my conspiracy tin foil hat here:

The judges wanted M/K to medal, and I get it - they are a lovely pair. So they HAD to place them above J/R. Remember that Ash/Tim hadn't been forced to withdraw at this point, and at the moment of scoring M/K, the most likely outcome had two American teams in the top placements.

This isn't a "homer" opinion. As I've written on other threads, I'm generally a fan of M/K and not of J/R... but the outcome is just undeniably wrong in this case... my opinion only, of course.

i have thought about that one too... makes sense to me.

 

[chuckm]

LaLa are in their early 20s.... comparing them with teams on the verge of retirement just shows desperation in trying to put them down. Comparing scores in an event when there were no Canadian judge and ALL 3 Canadian teams received very low score is also not very convincing. If anything, their scores will go up if teams retire. This is so common in ice dance. Let's hope Hawayek Baker's scores go up too with H/D's imminent retirement, as young teams are growing fast behind them.

Yes, they are young, but they seem to be stuck in their lack of personal interaction, which won't help them move up. The lack of a Canadian judge doesn't mean much: the scores of one judge in a panel of 9 wouldn't increase their scores by any significant amount. And if a Canadian judge overscored the Canadian skaters, those scores would be tossed out anyway.

There were Canadian judges on the Pairs and Women's panels. J/R still placed behind the Japanese pair, and Maddy placed out of the top 10.

There was no US judge on the Men and Women's panels, but Alysa and Vincent still stood on the podium, and Mariah and Camden finished in the top 5.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, they are young, but they seem to be stuck in their lack of personal interaction, which won't help them move up. The lack of a Canadian judge doesn't mean much: the scores of one judge in a panel of 9 wouldn't increase their scores by any significant amount. And if a Canadian judge overscored the Canadian skaters, those scores would be tossed out anyway.

There were Canadian judges on the Pairs and Women's panels. J/R still placed behind the Japanese pair, and Maddy placed out of the top 10.

There was no US judge on the Men and Women's panels, but Alysa and Vincent still stood on the podium, and Mariah and Camden finished in the top 5.

I beg to differ. It's been mentioned by many people how the British judge downplayed the Canadians in ice dance and favoured his own team. Apparently, in the RD he even gave more GOE to the young Georgian team than to Piper and Paul. Yes, the highest and lowest scores are tossed... but you can ask Sylvie Fréchette how a super low score still makes a difference in a sport where results are decided by fractions of a point... When looking at Maddie's score for instance, she ended up 12th but in a virtual tie with the 9th place... Anything could have happened here... it's a pure and simple arbitrary mathematical exercize in the end. Wakaba had her worst skate in a while and ended up just .01 ahead of Maddie... it's pretty much obvious that it could have gone the other way, especially if Maddie had skater later in both programs. So, as many (including yourself) have pointed out numerous times, let's not suddenly pretend that judging will not affect the results... It certainly does especially when the decisions can go either way. Camden and Mariah skated very well and I am glad they were rewarded as they deserved it.

Now, regarding our young Canadian athletes, I have been a member of Goldenskate long enough and unfortunately for me, I have a very good memory... There has been constant downplaying of our Canadian athletes : Joannie, Patrick, Virtue and Moir, Kaetlyn, Duhamel Radford... and recently Maddie, Piper and Paul and Lala... Complaints are about connection, music, costumes, packaging, even their looks, etc it almost sounds like some are trying to find excuses to criticize them... things that have nothing to do with the sport most of the times. Like who cares that Piper and Paul's Long and winding Road cover is not to someone's taste?? That's not why they didn't win... I mean does anyone think that the Knierim/Fraser's cover that is the object of a copyright case a great one? That didn't prevent them from winning worlds. I think the world would be much better if we kept the negative banter down... would that be too much to ask? By respect for the young athletes?

 

[chuckm]

Pointing out that Mariah Bell didn't have a 3/3 in her FS wasn't exactly complimentary, either.

 

[4everchan]

Pointing out that Mariah Bell didn't have a 3/3 in her FS wasn't exactly complimentary, either.

This discussion was in context of gabby's potential and very hypothetical return to the top : would a 3t-3t still make it when it seems that 3lz-3t is the norm? Mariah was simply given as an example of a skater successful without it, nothing more to it.

 

[discodisco]

Ruiter's content is the same as all but a couple of skaters.

Her personal best (and that's with junior PCS) is 63.17, which would have been thirteenth in the short program at Worlds.

Yes, but this year's world's wasn't particularly well-skated, let's be honest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kaia doesn't have promise. I'm just saying that it's not as if Canada has tons of top skaters banging on the door justifying multiple world's spots.

But of course, I'd love to see her there!

 

[discodisco]

except Mariah bell you know... who didn't even try a triple triple in the LP

You have to admit it's very unusual to see a skater with no triple-triple that high these days. Plus, Bell was way overmarked, as her program was vacuous. Anyway, we know Gabby at her best was great. Let's hope she gets back to her top, although we know that's not going to get her a medal these days...

 

[discodisco]

this is where I disagree immensely.
Spots are important in ice dance, even more so than in any other disciplines in Canada. We have a lot of teams who can make the Free dance and the 3rd ranked Canadian team next year probably would do so. Lauriault and Le Gac are going to be readier, Shane and Caro... Fabbri Ayer, S./W etc... and the juniors... so while Canada lost a spot with a very euro-centric tech panel and cray cray British judge downplaying everything our teams did, our younger teams will lose a very important opportunity to gain momentum and experience in preparation for Montreal worlds. The only good news here is that it's the same to retain or regain 3 spots... 13 points ... so that's the break Canada gets here.... but really it does mean that a very good team will stay at home next year and it better not be my parrots

Canada has lots of solid dancers, even if we don't have the star-power of the past decade+. I agree that the British judge was way off....

 

[discodisco]

Mariah Bell is a PCS skater. She can still do well even without a 3/3 in her FS, as long as she skates cleanly. Her 4th place at Worlds is a testament to that.

But when it comes to a second lady for Canada, Kaya Ruiter may seem to be the most promising, but she's been away from competition now for almost a year. During that time, she may have gone through another growth spurt, so there's no way of knowing if she's still capable of performing at the same level she was in her junior career.

Gabby has been working on regaining her skating skills, and 3 years have passed, with no vast improvement evident. That ship may well have sailed.

See how the juniors do at JW, then you'll have an idea of where Canadian women stand for the future.

I agree with everything you say in this section (disagree with Maria Bell as a PCS skater). But the points above are bang-on

 

[4everchan]

i have hope for Justine and Fiona as well... let's not be shortsighted. We need these skaters to get experience and judge's exposure now if we want them to score decently in 4 years... we all know how this works

 

[discodisco]

I wouldn't call Mariah a PCS skater when looking at Kaori or Loena just to name two. Jason Brown = PCS skater. Way above the pa.ck. Mariah is a good all around skater with good charisma.

This is bang-on. Mariah Bell's programs are not strong PCS=wise. But you're right, she has charisma - even if it means having a huge smile on her face all the way through her program... which isn't exactly 'happy' music. Go back and count the crossovers (lots) vs. the top skaters, and difficult transitions and turns (few) vs. the top skaters. I hate it when the Eteri programs are filled with pointless turns, demonstrations of flexibility and leg-kicks ad nauseum on flat edges, but when a skater like (eg) Sakomoto does it, it's to show off her SKATING SKILLS, and not just gain points. Her program is so complex compared to (eg) Bell's, but it doesn't feel overdone like others b/c he edges are so pure, and her speed is incredible

 

[discodisco]

Regarding J/R the argument is that they were held down in PCS in the LP and the Japanese were held up in both programs. In the end, they should have been above the Japanese. Of course, I hope that Ashley recovers quickly. That was horrible to watch.

Yep. Too bad, though, that this was probably the weakest pairs event I've ever seen... :-( Not to take anything away from JR - I mean, they've come so far in one season, and definitely have so much potential. But I can't think of a worlds with so little content in the free... maybe early 00's?

 

[discodisco]

The Japanese skaters have been together for years and have gelled as a couple. J/R have been teamed for a few months, and at times it really shows. It should be expected that M/K should have higher PCS scores. M/K were outscoring K/F on PCS all season, for the same reason (K/F being a new partnership). But by Worlds, K/F had truly become two skating as one, and they achieved their PB 144.21 in the FS, with 9s in their PCS.

I agree, although I think JR should have taken it here. Their edges and lines are really top notch. The one area where they're noticeably weaker than the other teams is speed and attack. They rely on their lines and experience but are slow as molasses compared to the top teams, and they don't go for it either - understandably as they're new, and also older!

 

[discodisco]

Putting on my conspiracy tin foil hat here:

The judges wanted M/K to medal, and I get it - they are a lovely pair. So they HAD to place them above J/R. Remember that Ash/Tim hadn't been forced to withdraw at this point, and at the moment of scoring M/K, the most likely outcome had two American teams in the top placements.

This isn't a "homer" opinion. As I've written on other threads, I'm generally a fan of M/K and not of J/R... but the outcome is just undeniably wrong in this case... my opinion only, of course.

Yep. 100%. Same for Meno and Sand way back, where they had their worst long ever, with falls, an aborted lift, etc., but still took silver. It was shocking, but the desire to have them on the podium was what got them there, not their skating at all...

 

[chuckm]

It so happens that Mariah Bell had the third highest PCS scores in both SP and FS at Worlds

Kaori SAKAMOTO	JPN	80.32​	43.25​		37.07​
Loena HENDRICKX	BEL	75.00​	40.52​		34.48​
Mariah BELL	USA	72.55​	38.67​		33.88​
Kaori SAKAMOTO	JPN	155.77​	80.10​		75.67​
Loena HENDRICKX	BEL	142.70​	70.66​		72.04​
Mariah BELL	USA	136.11​	66.28​		69.83​

She is, indeed, a PCS skater.

 

[4everchan]

Vincent Zhou also had the third highest PCS scores in both the SP and LP = PCS skater

 

[discodisco]

It so happens that Mariah Bell had the third highest PCS scores in both SP and FS at Worlds

Kaori SAKAMOTO	JPN	80.32​	43.25​		37.07​
Loena HENDRICKX	BEL	75.00​	40.52​		34.48​
Mariah BELL	USA	72.55​	38.67​		33.88​
Kaori SAKAMOTO	JPN	155.77​	80.10​		75.67​
Loena HENDRICKX	BEL	142.70​	70.66​		72.04​
Mariah BELL	USA	136.11​	66.28​		69.83​

She is, indeed, a PCS skater.

Yes, she is a PCS skater rather than a technical skater. Yes, she placed third in both programs PCS-wise. I'm suggesting her program does not deserve said PCS scores, particularly in terms of complexity. She has nice edges for sure, and a certain 'in-factor' charisma-wise.

 

[discodisco]

Vincent Zhou also had the third highest PCS scores in both the SP and LP = PCS skater

Exactly! Good point, thanks. That said, I'd say that Vincent has a very complex program with less than amazing skating skills, whereas Bell has good skating skills, but a simplistic program.

 

[chuckm]

Vincent has only improved his presentation skills over the past year of so, and he really had to because of all the qs and <s he gets on his jumps. His Vincent was the first program that really showed his ability to relate to the music. And his FS was obviously personally meaningful, so he was able to get that over as well.

I looked closely at the PCS marking for the men. In the SP, the two who got the lowest PCS scores of the top 12 men were Pulkinen and Kvitelashvili. Interesting in the FS: Pulkinen so outscored Moris on the TES that 2-3 judges raised Moris's PCS scores high enough so that Moris finished ahead of Camden. Moris has to be one of the least charismatic skaters around. He's been doing the same FS layout now for about 5 years, always to some overused music that he pretty much ignores. In fact, Moris has openly said that he despises Frank Sinatra.

 

[discodisco]

Moris has to be one of the least charismatic skaters around. He's been doing the same FS layout now for about 5 years, always to some overused music that he pretty much ignores. In fact, Moris has openly said that he despises Frank Sinatra.

Really? He's not my fave, but I think he really sells the program...