2021-2022 US Women's Figure Skating

[Amei]

Amber with 3a and how bad everyone else performed could very well have medalled at world. But no, she was not send because missing "body of work". And most certainly she will not be send to Olympics again even if she performed well, because of missing body of work, because she couldn't prove herself at world. How is she supposed to create a body of work, when she never will he send? The body of work principle is nonsense, it doesn't have any clear criterias, it only favours politicking and skaters with influancial coaches

The body of work is a controversial option because like you said a skater gets passed over for a competition for another skater who has a body of work, so it inhibits the first skater's ability to develop a body of work for in the future. However in the case of Amber - its not like she was a brand new senior skater last year and got passed over for established Karen Chen; Amber has been competing as a senior for 5 seasons and in international competition she's placed on the podium once at the CS US Classic where she finished third. Its not like she hasn't been given opportunities to prove herself on the international stage.

And let's be honest on Amber and the "triple axel" - she's only attempted it I think twice in competition, at Nationals last year (once in the SP, none in the FS) and at the Cranberry cup SP- Nationals was downgraded and Cranberry it was under-rotated. I have my doubts that a skater who is an inconsistent competitor would have hit it and everything else enough to medal at Worlds, her highest combined score internationally was at 2020 4ccs with 190.83; Trusova who finished third at 2021 Worlds scored 217.20, so Amber would have needed to improve her best score by about 27 points to surpass Trusova.

**To be clear, when the discussions were had regarding who would be sent to Worlds, I was in favor of sending Amber with the argument that it wasn't like Karen had some phenomenal international body of work, and that I thought it would have been good to send her because she did attempt the triple axel with a decent attempt, and the US ladies with the exception of a few juniors (and now Alysa who is a first-time international senior) have failed to push themselves technically to be competitive with the top international ladies.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The body of work is a controversial option because like you said a skater gets passed over for a competition for another skater who has a body of work, so it inhibits the first skater's ability to develop a body of work for in the future. However in the case of Amber - its not like she was a brand new senior skater last year and got passed over for established Karen Chen; Amber has been competing as a senior for 5 seasons and in international competition she's placed on the podium once at the CS US Classic where she finished third. Its not like she hasn't been given opportunities to prove herself on the international stage.

And let's be honest on Amber and the "triple axel" - she's only attempted it I think twice in competition, at Nationals last year (once in the SP, none in the FS) and at the Cranberry cup SP- Nationals was downgraded and Cranberry it was under-rotated. I have my doubts that a skater who is an inconsistent competitor would have hit it and everything else enough to medal at Worlds, her highest combined score internationally was at 2020 4ccs with 190.83; Trusova who finished third at 2021 Worlds scored 217.20, so Amber would have needed to improve her best score by about 27 points to surpass Trusova.

**To be clear, when the discussions were had regarding who would be sent to Worlds, I was in favor of sending Amber with the argument that it wasn't like Karen had some phenomenal international body of work, and that I thought it would have been good to send her because she did attempt the triple axel with a decent attempt, and the US ladies with the exception of a few juniors (and now Alysa who is a first-time international senior) have failed to push themselves technically to be competitive with the top international ladies.

I agree. I wanted Amber to get chosen over Karen because, like you said, Karen's record in the year leading up to 2021 Nationals didn't suggest that she'd be a medal contender at Worlds. Ultimately sending Karen was the right choice, so I think having a more formal selection process that takes into account other international events will be beneficial going forward. My one concern is that athletes might not push themselves to try difficult jumps in international events because the selection criteria seem to encourage consistency. If I were Amber's coach, I might not have her try the 3A next weekend and instead go for an easier layout but executed cleanly (something she has struggled with anyway).

 

[TontoK]

Other than Lindsay Thorngren, I can't imagine another lady who could threaten our top 2 ladies. Alysa and Bradie

To put Bradie's sudden 2018 rise into perspective:

In 2017 she was 9th at Nationals. The skater who was 9th last year was Rena Ikenishi. I'm sure Rena must be a lovely person and a dedicated skater, but she's hardly a household name. Bradie's 2018 win would be like Rena Ikenishi winning Nationals this year.

I don't know very much about Rena, just like I didn't know very much about Bradie at the time, but we can say with certainty that a skater in her position has done it before. It's an example of why I think we should let the season play out and see how things go at Nationals, and not get dismissive about skaters who don't have what we consider a sufficient body of work.

 

[Lzbee]

To put Bradie's sudden 2018 rise into perspective:

In 2017 she was 9th at Nationals. The skater who was 9th last year was Rena Ikenishi. I'm sure Rena must be a lovely person and a dedicated skater, but she's hardly a household name. Bradie's 2018 win would be like Rena Ikenishi winning Nationals this year.

I don't know very much about Rena, just like I didn't know very much about Bradie at the time, but we can say with certainty that a skater in her position has done it before. It's an example of why I think we should let the season play out and see how things go at Nationals, and not get dismissive about skaters who don't have what we consider a sufficient body of work.

Bradie didn't turn up to nationals 2018 with no body of work though. In her breakout year, she won Philadelphia with 185, scored 196 at Lombardia and 204 at Skate America for a bronze medal. No one else had come close to that sort of consistency that year (that's saying a lot cos she only did 3 competitions before nationals). Her nationals win only solidified that she should be on the team.

The current selection criteria only need the skaters to score above 217 internationally once for them to be considered in group 2 as long as they are also top 5 at nationals. This would be in favour of those with high scoring potential and have "brought it together at the right time".

But those with high scoring potential and consistently achieve that scoring potential will be ranked higher.

 

[Dawn825]

**To be clear, when the discussions were had regarding who would be sent to Worlds, I was in favor of sending Amber with the argument that it wasn't like Karen had some phenomenal international body of work, and that I thought it would have been good to send her because she did attempt the triple axel with a decent attempt, and the US ladies with the exception of a few juniors (and now Alysa who is a first-time international senior) have failed to push themselves technically to be competitive with the top international ladies.

I too at the time had definitely felt that it should be Amber, because her combinations were the hardest/cleanest in the event and the fact that she was even trying the 3A made her look more competitive. But people were saying that international judges like Karen and would help her. I thought ok...if you say so. Then they did just straight up ignore her obvious UR in the SP combo at Worlds. Her FS was lovely, and my favorite of the event, but if the judges had chosen to call her in the short she probably would have finished 6th. While it's possible the caller just like sneezed at that moment or something and missed it, it's also very possible that a panel of WC judges were all happy to ignore it because they like Karen and wanted her to do well. So if Amber, Mariah, and Karen are all kind of mediocre throughout the season, Karen would definitely be who the Fed would want to send again I think, aside from PCS potential and her actual WC score putting her in whatever tier.

 

[macy]

Bradie didn't turn up to nationals 2018 with no body of work though. In her breakout year, she won Philadelphia with 185, scored 196 at Lombardia and 204 at Skate America for a bronze medal. No one else had come close to that sort of consistency that year (that's saying a lot cos she only did 3 competitions before nationals). Her nationals win only solidified that she should be on the team.

Yeah, this. Bradie did have a body of work by the time Olympic selection rolled around. she had been doing very well and gaining momentum the entire season and a lot of people expected her to win nationals after she medaled at SA- it wasn't like she had completely come out of nowhere and won.

 

[TontoK]

Yeah, this. Bradie did have a body of work by the time Olympic selection rolled around. she had been doing very well and gaining momentum the entire season and a lot of people expected her to win nationals after she medaled at SA- it wasn't like she had completely come out of nowhere and won.

My point was that heading into that season, she was unknown. No one would have predicted she'd be National Champion at this point in the year. The chatter was all about Karen, Ashley, Mirai, Mariah... to a lesser degree speculation about whether Gracie could get it together...

But, you are correct that she did have a very good year, and was certainly on the radar as Nationals approached.

Edit: I've tried to go back and find the 2017-18 US Ladies thread to confirm the lack of chatter about Bradie at this point in the year, but my searching has not been effective. One indicator however, is the Fan Fest. Bradie didn't even have a Fan Fest page until November 23, 2017.

 

[Jammers]

To put Bradie's sudden 2018 rise into perspective:

In 2017 she was 9th at Nationals. The skater who was 9th last year was Rena Ikenishi. I'm sure Rena must be a lovely person and a dedicated skater, but she's hardly a household name. Bradie's 2018 win would be like Rena Ikenishi winning Nationals this year.

I don't know very much about Rena, just like I didn't know very much about Bradie at the time, but we can say with certainty that a skater in her position has done it before. It's an example of why I think we should let the season play out and see how things go at Nationals, and not get dismissive about skaters who don't have what we consider a sufficient body of work.

Let's be honest everything came together at the right time for Bradie. The US ladies were in turmoil heading into the Olympic year just think about it the two ladies who had dominated US ladies for years and made the US relevant again were both almost non factors by this time. Gracie went from leading after the SP at Worlds to not even competing that year and Ashley was showing signs of decline so the field was wide open by 2018. No one else had shown over the last four years of being a contender internationally or had a great record they could fall back on so a unknown like Bradie could come out of nowhere like she did and make the team and to her credit she took it. In fact i remember thinking that year that she looked like the only US woman who wanted to make the team because everyone else was so mediocre. Actually this does feel a lot like late 2017 only one skater Alysa has really shown up to fight while the other contenders have been lukewarm and the one veteran who has the best record overall ironically Bradie is the one on the bubble if she doesn't get healthy soon.

 

[jenaj]

Internationally too, Bradie has consistency scored higher than Karen and the other US ladies. Her average score for several years was higher than that Alysa is scoring now. If healthy, she should have no trouble developing a strong body of work.

Assuming her most recent scores, at Worlds and the WTT, are an anomaly, I agree. She needs to prove herself on the GP and at Nationals, however.

 

[TontoK]

I get what you're saying @Jammers. Everything DID come together for Bradie at the right time. My point is that it COULD come together for another relatively unknown skater this season.

And, yes, I agree that the stalwarts in 2017-18 faltered and opened the door for her. But I also ask this: Other than Alysa, have you seen an age-eligible US Ladies program this year that made you think, "Yeah! That's Olympic calibre right there!" I admit I follow the ladies haphazardly, but I don't recall anything that has impressed me. They've all been technically deficient, or just awful programs that have had to be ditched, or someone is injured... I hope all this changes as the season progresses, but I don't think any of this is untrue at this point.

Now, I'm not predicting that lightening will strike again. I'm saying it's possible. The way I see it, there are three Olympic spots up for grabs, and I'd only put a bet on one skater so far.

Edit: I think we must be cross-posting, because we're essentially saying the same thing.

 

[LiamForeman]

Let's be honest everything came together at the right time for Bradie. The US ladies were in turmoil heading into the Olympic year just think about it the two ladies who had dominated US ladies for years and made the US relevant again were both almost non factors by this time. Gracie went from leading after the SP at Worlds to not even competing that year and Ashley was showing signs of decline so the field was wide open by 2018.

2018 was a strange year with Gracie out, Ashley deteriorating, and Karen Chen doing miserably on the GP after a star-making 4th place at Worlds. Perfect for someone like Bradie to show her skills. I felt badly for Ashley that she was passed over for the Olympics. I can see at the time that USFS saw Karen Chen as the "future", so give her this Olympics to establish herself for the future. Unfortunately, her miserable GP performances were indicative of what we would witness from Karen at the Olympics. She'd complain about her boot manufacturer, she'd complain that she couldn't stay with her mother in the Athlete's Village, she'd complain about whatever she could blame for her poor performances, except she wouldn't take any responsibility for herself. Four years later, lots of excuses later, not much to show the USFS her worth for all the faith they had in her, and Karen is back again, doing mediocre. I just hope that USFS is consistent enough this year that if Karen is on the chopping block, well, chop. Give another hardworking athlete an Olympic spot. Spread the love to the other American parents of skaters who have sacrificed so much for their child's skating. I don't want to see Karen at the Olympics if it means an Amber, Mariah, Lindsay would forever miss out on being an Olympian. For what? Another middling performance from Karen with lots of excuses? I'll pass.

 

[beepboop]

I can't believe it's already October and the GPs are right around the corner

 

[Lutzedge]

JGP update: Clare Seo places 4th, and Mia Kalin winds up 6th overall at this week's JGP. Clare performed a lovely program, but unfortunately had some rotation problems and a fall. Mia Kalin fell on her first quad and landed the second in combination, had two falls total, and problems with a bunch of her rotations. Mia has really been judged harshly, particularly with her GOEs. She had continuous -2s or worse being given just because she landed quartered or UR. Her second quad was UR, but was landed, and received a -5 from a judge! Both American ladies had struggles with rotating this weekend, so hopefully they can improve as the season goes on. Both of them seemed to look pretty confidant throughout their programs, so that is something very good for them.

 

[chuckm]

The problem I see with Mia is that she is so focused on jumps that her performance takes a back seat. I find her skating boring, TBH. And it doesn't help that with all the emphasis on jumps, she has so many URs.

 

[Seven Sisters]

The problem I see with Mia is that she is so focused on jumps that her performance takes a back seat.

That’s rather par for the course at the moment, no? Especially in Ladies!

 

[soccerjc77]

Mia kalin, i love this girl ! It take gut to do 2 quads jump at 13 year old ! I admire her fearless and gut to trying to reach the russian girl with her quad. Keep working hard girl ! The sky is the limit !

 

[readernick]

JGP update: Clare Seo places 4th, and Mia Kalin winds up 6th overall at this week's JGP. Clare performed a lovely program, but unfortunately had some rotation problems and a fall. Mia Kalin fell on her first quad and landed the second in combination, had two falls total, and problems with a bunch of her rotations. Mia has really been judged harshly, particularly with her GOEs. She had continuous -2s or worse being given just because she landed quartered or UR. Her second quad was UR, but was landed, and received a -5 from a judge! Both American ladies had struggles with rotating this weekend, so hopefully they can improve as the season goes on. Both of them seemed to look pretty confidant throughout their programs, so that is something very good for them.

I would say that the scores correctly reflected what was put on the ice. Technical calling was strict for everyone.

Clare has a major UR problem, her 3Lz+3T UR is visible in real time. I like Clare's skating ( more than I like her training mates Karen and Audrey's skating) but all the female skaters coached by her coach have UR issues. She should find another coach who will actually address the UR problem before she turns senior. Karen and Audrey have never made true progress in this area.

Mia's skating is not to my taste. It isn't to the judges' tastes either because they never give her the benefit of doubt. ( Rather the opposite of Ava Marie who can also be messy but whose basic skating is incredibly good) That being said, Mia did improve from her last competition noticeably her jumps and performance in the SP were a lot better. It is good to see such improvement in such a short time. Mia needs to take the time between now and junior nationals to work on her basic skating and her jumps. Mia is cute. I love her smile. Now she and her coach work on her weaknesses.. She is only 13 she has time to improve.

 

[skatingiscool]

Other than Lindsay Thorngren, I can't imagine another lady who could threaten our top 2 ladies. Alysa and Bradie

Perhaps Karen?

 

[skatingiscool]

Come on Isabeau, why you're not age eligible for this Olympics season?? My dream US Olympics team - Alysa, Isabeau, and Lindsay. Most Olympic ladies figure skating champions are teenagers (in the past 20 years). I always think that teenage girls have better chance on podium. Although I like Bradie a lot....but I still think Lindsay has better shot. Don't know why. Perhaps they are fearless? Less pressure for them?

 

[readernick]

Come on Isabeau, why you're not age eligible for this Olympics season?? My dream US Olympics team - Alysa, Isabeau, and Lindsay. Most Olympic ladies figure skating champions are teenagers (in the past 20 years). I always think that teenage girls have better chance on podium. Although I like Bradie a lot....but I still think Lindsay has better shot. Don't know why. Perhaps they are fearless? Less pressure for them?

I think it is highly unlikely that any US woman is going to be on the podium.