2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Lzbee]

I would definitely like to see an additional competition for the top seasons best skaters but that would encourage score inflation and more politics so I'm not sure what they can really do.

One thing I think they should really do is start paying their judges a decent salary from a central pool. This volunteering business is pretty sketchy. It's difficult to hold them accountable when they're not being compensated for judging. I do think judging controversies deter potential fans and with less of those, a seasons best competition may be viable.

 

[chasingneverland]

I don't, there are countries who have something to say about it (although we do not belong to them anymore). And Canadians+Americans are not interested in worlds after all, they care about their NHL.

Now more seriously, it is a difference when you send a team, 20-25 best, and when you send 3 individuals at best. That number is simply ridiculously low. BTW in ice hockey there is a B division, I think there could be the B division in figure skating as well, divided not by country but by individual results.



Nope. Maiia landed two clean quads just recently and lands quads at shows. Young You didn't show significant jumping success for a year.


That's not an argument at all. The only skater who was significantly politically helped was Karen Chen through ignoring of her obvious URs and last time I checked she was no Russian. She definitely shouldn't have finished 4th.

Kaori's skate at worlds and at WTT were not similar but siginificqantly different in quality. Those 13 points in difference were not just different view of the same thing. And remember that her 150 points in the free at WTT was her all time international max, 5 points higher than the previous one, it's not like she do that routinely on international field. Her WTT free skate was probably the best non-russian lady skate of the season, but we have seen russian juniors doing better.

A lot of federations definitely do not have skaters capable of tech content that "rival Maiia/Daria/Aliona/Liza T." Apart from Japan and maybe Korea if You restores her level she had two seasons ago (but still inconsistent even that time) I can hardly see rivals to those you named if clean. Clean Daria can be possibly defeated by clean Kaori of the skaters without quads, but hardly by anybody else. Maiia with a stable quad(s) have pretty decent chance against anyone outside of Russia. Liza made a mistake on her 3A combo at WTT which cost her second place. Aliona is a question now, but we will see in two or three months.

And there are countries that will have something to say about the medal places at World's and the Olympics. I'm talking about the Olympics more than World's for hockey and you better believe everyone cares about that - skaters actually threatened to leave the NHL about it.

And not when you consider the sheer number of ice hockey players that exist and will also never get the chance to skate in the Olympics. We're also talking about 3 out of maybe 6-9 skaters. That's actually half to a third of realistic contenders which actually isn't that low.

There are ACTUALLY THREE (kinda an introduction of a 4th) divisions in ice hockey for World's. But ONLY 12 teams make it to the Olympics.

Maiia landed two quads at one competition. Young You does actually have her 3A back she also landed it at one competition. It's not stable but neither is Maiia's. Arguably Young You's success rate is actually higher. Also shows are roughly equivalent to training and Maiia actually has fallen on some of them anyway.

It wasn't 13 points difference. Look at things objectively please.

I'm not saying a lot do. There don't need to be a lot. But it's not at all fair to assume that the Russian girls will be clean and the others won't be. Daria is more consistent yes but doesn't have the technical content yet. And when she does we don't know how that will affect her consistency. Maiia doesn't have stable quads. And you're still forgetting about Amber who actually does have a 3A as well. And Liza ALSO made a mistake on her 3A combo at Worlds too (as well as fell on her 3F). She spun out of it.

 

[chasingneverland]

It's moved to figure skating fandom informally, it is not in any of the rulebooks and there is no official list of elements. Feels important to note that.

Yeah because it's used sooo often on these forums haha and it's easier than saying quads and 3A's I use it too. But that's why I always have it in quotations haha.

 

[chasingneverland]

Switching countries sounds so enticing competitively. Imagine if Maiia for example switched, she would get a free pass into the Olympics as well as all Worlds and Europeans. And the field at the Olympics would only include 3 of the Russians. Heck, even Valieva for example. She wouldn't need to deal with Akatieva/Samodelkina/Zhilina every single Nationals in the future. Having just a few bad days at Nationals can wreck your year. I wonder what the parents of really young novice skaters are thinking.

It isn't just a scenario of skaters that are too bad to podium at Nationals and therefore have no chance at the Olympics doing this. Getting consistent international comps. is a big asset.

Between 2022-2026 I think we'll see really good skaters switch.

Normally Maiia wouldn't be able to switch but because of the pandemic she's already had to sit out the year - once you've competed internationally you have to sit out a year. But that already happened. But you would still have citizenship issues because the Olympics requires citizenship. And of course it would be waaaay too late anyway. Most placements have already been allocated. She would have to get citizenship NOW and possibly go to Nebelhorn to get a spot.

And they would NEVER release Kamila - but she's actually is the most likely to go to the Olympics.

Ad their parents are thinking what every realistic sports parent should think - that in ALL sports it's actually incredibly difficult to fulfill your dreams. And that for most it won't happen. That doesn't make it NOT fair or NOT worth it.

 

[chasingneverland]

It is highly improbable FFKKR would release a skater of Maiia's level and releasing Kamila resides in the land of mead and elves.

After all, that skaters are forced to switch countries just to get a chance to compete internationally shows how the existing system of quotas per country is obsolete. Even though there are people who call for "diversity" in skating, you can hardly achieve what diversity should bring just by assigning different flags to skaters from one country. I'm not saying switching countries should be forbidden, but it shouldn't be done just as the act of the last hope (or bussiness for the countries that capitalize on it).

There are PLENTY of athletes in their sports dominant countries that have had to decide to switch countries.

 

[ELEk3k]

Usacheva working for 3A

 

[Minz]

Normally Maiia wouldn't be able to switch but because of the pandemic she's already had to sit out the year - once you've competed internationally you have to sit out a year. But that already happened. But you would still have citizenship issues because the Olympics requires citizenship. And of course it would be waaaay too late anyway. Most placements have already been allocated. She would have to get citizenship NOW and possibly go to Nebelhorn to get a spot.

And they would NEVER release Kamila - but she's actually is the most likely to go to the Olympics.

Ad their parents are thinking what every realistic sports parent should think - that in ALL sports it's actually incredibly difficult to fulfill your dreams. And that for most it won't happen. That doesn't make it NOT fair or NOT worth it.

Also - Where would someone like Maiia even go? Any of these girls could dominate in a place like US or Canada, but imagine the scandal. Remember - everything was up the wazzo when Medvedeva dared to go to a non-Russian coach. Now a whole country switch? Imagine that mess...

 

[chasingneverland]

I would definitely like to see an additional competition for the top seasons best skaters but that would encourage score inflation and more politics so I'm not sure what they can really do.

One thing I think they should really do is start paying their judges a decent salary from a central pool. This volunteering business is pretty sketchy. It's difficult to hold them accountable when they're not being compensated for judging. I do think judging controversies deter potential fans and with less of those, a seasons best competition may be viable.

Considering they try to actively avoid meeting each other on GPs I don't know how many would actually go. It would have to have some incentive.

As for judges yes. But figure skating competitions are already pretty prohibitive for smaller federations. This would increase costs. Also would affect the smaller competitions as well. Countries might not be able to afford them anymore. I think paid judges at BIGGER competitions might work though. But the thing is that it would have to be more and be worth more to their own career as well as their connection's careers otherwise it wouldn't matter. A lot of the Fed judges have positions within their OWN Fed so know their own careers as well as their connections career's are in how their actually being "compensated". And the real issue is the powerful Federations anyway and they can probably afford more than a "central pool" anyway.

 

[Amei]

Usacheva working for 3A

I think that's an old video, aren't Dudakov and Danill in Mexico right now at that camp

 

[chasingneverland]

Also - Where would someone like Maiia even go? Any of these girls could dominate in a place like US or Canada, but imagine the scandal. Remember - everything was up the wazzo when Medvedeva dared to go to a non-Russian coach. Now a whole country switch? Imagine that mess...

She would also lose funding. Evgenia could afford to go to Orser for coaching because she's such a big name and in addition to the stipend the russian national team gets could afford the surplus because of her shows and sponsorships. Not only would Maiia lose the stipend she doesn't actually have shows or sponsorships. Now Eteri might keep her as a student so she might not have moving expenses but she would have to pay for coaching now (rather than the Fed) and the Fed will insist Eteri focus on the Russian skaters (if they would even let her keep her). So she would have to go to a powerful and rich Fed AND get a sponsor (probably more) that would help with all the new expenses she would have - competition costs, programs and choreography, ice time, coaching, any additional medical costs, etc. And that's if she stays in Russia with Eteri. If she has to leave, then she has moving and housing costs on top of that. Also most placements are already allocated. Like Canada is actually a fairly powerful and large federation but they only have one spot at the Olympics. Now she should win it but it would definitely not be easy considering all the complications in place before she could even consider competing for it.

 

[ELEk3k]

I think that's an old video, aren't Dudakov and Danill in Mexico right now at that camp

Yes. It think too, but i did not watched it early in GS

 

[chasingneverland]

I think that's an old video, aren't Dudakov and Danill in Mexico right now at that camp

There are pictures of Aliona working on her 3A with Sergei. Could have been from that day before they left. Not necessarily "old" but also not released yet. Like from last week or the week before.

Like remember that picture of Sergei with the harness??

We do know that they're all training 3As. (Even Maiia's interview said they were.) It could be from that?

 

[dante]

One thing I think they should really do is start paying their judges a decent salary from a central pool.

Who and how will control this pool? If you forbid the countries to openly defend their interests, it would only take the rivalry to the level of intrigues and turn the ISU into another WADA.

 

[ELEk3k]

She would also lose funding. Evgenia could afford to go to Orser for coaching because she's such a big name and in addition to the stipend the russian national team gets could afford the surplus because of her shows and sponsorships. Not only would Maiia lose the stipend she doesn't actually have shows or sponsorships. Now Eteri might keep her as a student so she might not have moving expenses but she would have to pay for coaching now (rather than the Fed) and the Fed will insist Eteri focus on the Russian skaters (if they would even let her keep her). So she would have to go to a powerful and rich Fed AND get a sponsor (probably more) that would help with all the new expenses she would have - competition costs, programs and choreography, ice time, coaching, any additional medical costs, etc. And that's if she stays in Russia with Eteri. If she has to leave, then she has moving and housing costs on top of that. Also most placements are already allocated. Like Canada is actually a fairly powerful and large federation but they only have one spot at the Olympics. Now she should win it but it would definitely not be easy considering all the complications in place before she could even consider competing for it.

Guys, you are missing the fact that in Russia top skaters can make good money domestically. If you recall the trainer Dovydov, who is coached by quadruples with Samdelkina, then he at one time took the citizenship of Belarus and was champions of domestic competitions for 10 years, but did not become the champion of the Olympic Games. In addition, he did not receive money for winning in internal cups. In Russia, in this regard, everything is different, there is an audience, sponsors, support from the federation and prize money.

 

[ELEk3k]

Who and how will control this pool? If you forbid the countries to openly defend their interests, it would only take the rivalry to the level of intrigues and turn the ISU into another WADA.

This will be a bad way. It will already be a business and not a sport. There are quite a few organizations in the world (I'm not talking about sports) in which the size of membership fees for each country depends on the size of its presence, and in the end everything boils down to the fact that the organization is more concerned with funding than with its main activities. There is no need to turn sports into an auction.

 

[chasingneverland]

Guys, you are missing the fact that in Russia top skaters can make good money domestically. If you recall the trainer Dovydov, who is coached by quadruples with Samdelkina, then he at one time took the citizenship of Belarus and was champions of domestic competitions for 10 years, but did not become the champion of the Olympic Games. In addition, he did not receive money for winning in internal cups. In Russia, in this regard, everything is different, there is an audience, sponsors, support from the federation and prize money.

I didn't miss that at all. In fact, I very much alluded to the fact she would be giving all that up.

 

[flanker]

And there are countries that will have something to say about the medal places at World's and the Olympics. I'm talking about the Olympics more than World's for hockey and you better believe everyone cares about that - skaters actually threatened to leave the NHL about it.

And not when you consider the sheer number of ice hockey players that exist and will also never get the chance to skate in the Olympics. We're also talking about 3 out of maybe 6-9 skaters. That's actually half to a third of realistic contenders which actually isn't that low.

There are ACTUALLY THREE (kinda an introduction of a 4th) divisions in ice hockey for World's. But ONLY 12 teams make it to the Olympics.

Yes, but it's not like there is to team who could defeat everyone else apart from the own one but have to sit at home. It's not like Canada would set up two teams who will win gold and silver. The last time players from NHL didn't even start at the olympics. And I remember when US of A and Canada wanted to change a particular olympics into the exhibition of the "overseas hockey" and neither of them did get even a bronze
But let's not go into the OT too far, for the conclusion relevant to this topic I say Canada is definitely very strong hockey country, with a very strong chance for a gold/another medal at worlds/OG, but not in the position that any other country would have a chance only in case of a complete bombing of the match.

Maiia landed two quads at one competition. Young You does actually have her 3A back she also landed it at one competition. It's not stable but neither is Maiia's. Arguably Young You's success rate is actually higher. Also shows are roughly equivalent to training and Maiia actually has fallen on some of them anyway.

I take this season as decesive for the evaluation the current state. The previous season (2019/20) can show the potential in You's case, but the truth is that even during that season she was quite unstable, she had great result at 4CC, but bad result at the Cup of China. Her last competitions were NHK and korean nationals and most of what Maiia has shown this season was far above that.

It wasn't 13 points difference. Look at things objectively please.

The difference between 137 and 150 is 13

I'm not saying a lot do. There don't need to be a lot. But it's not at all fair to assume that the Russian girls will be clean and the others won't be. Daria is more consistent yes but doesn't have the technical content yet. And when she does we don't know how that will affect her consistency. Maiia doesn't have stable quads. And you're still forgetting about Amber who actually does have a 3A as well. And Liza ALSO made a mistake on her 3A combo at Worlds too (as well as fell on her 3F). She spun out of it.

That's not what I'm saying (In fact it looked to me that you presumed the worst scenarions for the Russians and the best for the rest ). I was evaluating the situations where everyone skates to his current possibilities. In Daria's case I was even evaluating it for the situation when she won't get a stable 3A/quad and again I repeat, if she skates as she did this season, of the skaters without a quad/3A I see only Kaori able to top her and that's because she most probably will receive higher PCS. One can argue that Daria may get more frequent edge calls internationally, but Kaori has edge calls too. As for Liza, after all she did get higher score at WTT than at worlds, that's fully reflected in my consideration.

Normally Maiia wouldn't be able to switch but because of the pandemic she's already had to sit out the year - once you've competed internationally you have to sit out a year. But that already happened. But you would still have citizenship issues because the Olympics requires citizenship. And of course it would be waaaay too late anyway. Most placements have already been allocated. She would have to get citizenship NOW and possibly go to Nebelhorn to get a spot.

And they would NEVER release Kamila - but she's actually is the most likely to go to the Olympics.

Ad their parents are thinking what every realistic sports parent should think - that in ALL sports it's actually incredibly difficult to fulfill your dreams. And that for most it won't happen. That doesn't make it NOT fair or NOT worth it.

The proceedings term for changind allegiance for the members of the national team is two years, not one year as for the rest. And Maiia and Kamila are the team members so even with both eyes shut and presuming they would be released they would have problems even with Milan 2026.

As for the fairness, it is a question of a chance equal to the potential. If much weaker athletes can compete where much better athletes can't because of the quotas, then I think it's a food for discussion whether there is not something to change.

There are PLENTY of athletes in their sports dominant countries that have had to decide to switch countries.

Yes, and I think the effort should aim at how to reduce it, not how to keep or increase it.

 

[chasingneverland]

Yes, but it's not like there is to team who could defeat everyone else apart from the own one but have to sit at home. It's not like Canada would set up two teams who will win gold and silver. The last time players from NHL didn't even start at the olympics. And I remember when US of A and Canada wanted to change a particular olympics into the exhibition of the "overseas hockey" and neither of them did get even a bronze
But let's not go into the OT too far, for the conclusion relevant to this topic I say Canada is definitely very strong hockey country, with a very strong chance for a gold/another medal at worlds/OG, but not in the position that any other country would have a chance only in case of a complete bombing of the match.




I take this season as decesive for the evaluation the current state. The previous season (2019/20) can show the potential in You's case, but the truth is that even during that season she was quite unstable, she had great result at 4CC, but bad result at the Cup of China. Her last competitions were NHK and korean nationals and most of what Maiia has shown this season was far above that.



The difference between 137 and 150 is 13



That's not what I'm saying (In fact it looked to me that you presumed the worst scenarions for the Russians and the best for the rest ). I was evaluating the situations where everyone skates to his current possibilities. In Daria's case I was even evaluating it for the situation when she won't get a stable 3A/quad and again I repeat, if she skates as she did this season, of the skaters without a quad/3A I see only Kaori able to top her and that's because she most probably will receive higher PCS. One can argue that Daria may get more frequent edge calls internationally, but Kaori has edge calls too. As for Liza, after all she did get higher score at WTT than at worlds, that's fully reflected in my consideration.



The proceedings term for changind allegiance for the members of the national team is two years, not one year as for the rest. And Maiia and Kamila are the team members so even with both eyes shut and presuming they would be released they would have problems even with Milan 2026.

As for the fairness, it is a question of a chance equal to the potential. If much weaker athletes can compete where much better athletes can't because of the quotas, then I think it's a food for discussion whether there is not something to change.



Yes, and I think the effort should aim at how to reduce it, not how to keep or increase it.

Actually yes, Canada's "B" team could very well defeat everyone BUT Canada's A team. Canada could very well send both a gold and silver medalist to the Olympics. The last time NHL players didn't play in the Olympics wasn't because they didn't want to but because it was forbidden by the NHL. That's changed under the new CBA. Also there are over 400 Canadian NHL players. At least 200 of them would be locks on any team but maybe USA which has grown into a stronger team. LOL I can tell you a story about that. And you're right World's doesn't matter but that's because the top players are playing IN THE NHL - Playoffs is during the same time. The Olympics on the other hand when it IS best on best (when the NHL lets them go) is different.

Furthermore if you're talking about "only having a chance in a complete bombing". Well the scenario is the same. Russia's best 3 ARE STILL GOING. And it WOULDN'T take a complete bombing for Russia's 4-6 to be beaten internationally. In fact, Liza T, Daria, Maiia, etc HAVE all been beaten internationally by non-Russian's in the past. (Only Aliona, Anna, Sasha, and Kamila haven't and what do you know?? They're the front runners for the Olympic team.)

I AM taking this season into account. Young You HAS landed her 3A in competition this season once. That's the same number of times Maiia has landed her quads in competition this season. Young You has had issues on other jumps but a lot of that is because she also got COVID - it's also taken a while for Aliona to regain form. Also, Maiia has had plenty of issues on other jumps besides her quads as well this season. Hence, the parallels and comparisons are valid.

I'm saying the skates weren't a 13 point difference. Not that the math wasn't.

No, I'm not assuming the worst for the Russians. I'm just also not assuming the worst for the rest of the field, many of which haven't even been able to practice much less compete this season due to the pandemic. I also didn't say Liza T didn't get a higher score. I was pointing out Kaori's score.

They will never release Kamila but it's also not a concern for Kamila. For Maiia it actually also might not be anyway. But regardless, as I clearly explained it's a moot point because even with a one year she still wouldn't make the team for any other country.

They do have equal chance. If skaters can't make it to the Olympic spots - then their not the best. The rest might be defeated later but at some point you have to beat the best to be the best. That should be obvious.

That's not the goal of the Olympics though. They want to see countries represented. Olympics actually cuts sports where there isn't competition from a wide variety of countries.

 

[flanker]

Actually yes, Canada's "B" team could very well defeat everyone BUT Canada's A team.

Come on. Last time Canadians were this self-confident they were completely destroyed.

Canada could very well send both a gold and silver medalist to the Olympics. The last time NHL players didn't play in the Olympics wasn't because they didn't want to but because it was forbidden by the NHL. That's changed under the new CBA. Also there are over 400 Canadian NHL players. At least 200 of them would be locks on any team but maybe USA which has grown into a stronger team. LOL I can tell you a story about that. And you're right World's doesn't matter but that's because the top players are playing IN THE NHL - Playoffs is during the same time. The Olympics on the other hand when it IS best on best (when the NHL lets them go) is different.

Top players of the other countries as well. It's not like only Canadians and Americans are deprived of their best players because of the NHL. Russians, Swedes, Finns, us (when our ice hockey had its level )...

Furthermore if you're talking about "only having a chance in a complete bombing". Well the scenario is the same. Russia's best 3 ARE STILL GOING. And it WOULDN'T take a complete bombing for Russia's 4-6 to be beaten internationally. In fact, Liza T, Daria, Maiia, etc HAVE all been beaten internationally by non-Russian's in the past. (Only Aliona, Anna, Sasha, and Kamila haven't and what do you know?? They're the front runners for the Olympic team.)

I AM taking this season into account. Young You HAS landed her 3A in competition this season once. That's the same number of times Maiia has landed her quads in competition this season. Young You has had issues on other jumps but a lot of that is because she also got COVID - it's also taken a while for Aliona to regain form. Also, Maiia has had plenty of issues on other jumps besides her quads as well this season. Hence, the parallels and comparisons are valid.

Daria was defeated by Haein Lee at JGP, but at JGPF she was bronze only behind Kamila and Alysa and at junior worlds even silver over Alysa. Comparing her to Haein, she's still improving while Haein (although I think both Koreans were underscored in Stockholm, at least in the SP) isn't (now, of course she can make a progress). Similarly with Maiia. She narrowly didn't reach the medal at junior worlds but the won over the korean and japanese girls who defeated her during the previous JGP series. As you You Young, I'm judging her from what I saw. She can improve again and Daria and Maiia , but while I give a credit to Eteri for being repeatedly able to stabilize her skaters for the decesive tournaments and seasons, I don't think I can say that about the camps responsible for You.

I'm saying the skates weren't a 13 point difference. Not that the math wasn't.

And I do. Agree to disagree.

No, I'm not assuming the worst for the Russians. I'm just also not assuming the worst for the rest of the field, many of which haven't even been able to practice much less compete this season due to the pandemic. I also didn't say Liza T didn't get a higher score. I was pointing out Kaori's score.

They will never release Kamila but it's also not a concern for Kamila. For Maiia it actually also might not be anyway. But regardless, as I clearly explained it's a moot point because even with a one year she still wouldn't make the team for any other country.

Then, considering the realistic best for all of them we are back at what I said at the beghinning, for me it is not impossible to see all russian or all Eteri GPF, and I'm also underlining that I don't say it will happen, just that it can happen. If I should give a probability, I would say it is less than 50 %, but more than negligible.

They do have equal chance. If skaters can't make it to the Olympic spots - then their not the best. The rest might be defeated later but at some point you have to beat the best to be the best. That should be obvious.

Nope. Take my fellow countrywoman Eliška Březinová. Her chance to get to the olympics (she got it already) is completely different from the 10 or 15 russian ladies who are incomparably better than her. That's the injustice and I am aware I speak about my own country.

That's not the goal of the Olympics though. They want to see countries represented. Olympics actually cuts sports where there isn't competition from a wide variety of countries.

Depends on who are those "they". I want the best there. The state will never be ideal and I understand the importance of the represenattion of the countries, but I am for increasing the quotas for the best of them (now the best is Russia, in 20 years it can be a completely different country). If there can be more than three skiers from Norway I would appreciate more entries for skaters from one country too.

For the conlusion, I don't think anything else that would put this under a different light can be said on this topic.

 

[Scott512]

She went back to CSKA. It's on their Instagram

Poor kiddo I'm sad for her. But she's a lovely skater with a great personality and I hope she can develop like Sofia Samo has.