2022 U.S. Nationals: Pairs' Thoughts?

[gold12345]

This was a somewhat rough competition where you could feel the impact of the withdrawals but I enjoy watching pair skating regardless. Cain/LeDuc had a great competition, much better than any of their others this year. Did the withdrawal of Knierim/Frazier allow the other top pairs to exhale a little bit, probably. It could have played out differently had they been there, but of course we'll never know. It wasn't as intense without them though, and it was disappointing they didn't get to compete.

Cain/LeDuc were solid here aside from the salchow miss. They had a clear UR on a 2T that didn't get called, but I don't think any discipline at Nationals was calling URs that hard. I was glad there was such a clear-cut winner, otherwise I don't know if this type of scoring (massive GOE given out for everything) would have necessarily told us who would have beaten who in a "regular" competition.

This was the best competition Cain/LeDuc have had in years even with the botched combo. Those were the two best 3Lo she's ever done in a competition. These were the best 3 throw landings she's ever done in one competition (it seems like they've made their throws smaller or something, I don't know what exactly it is unless I go back and study it, but they seemed more in control here). With that being said, their pair elements are not that great. Their lifts were not that good here. If you give them massive GOE on every single element, it kills most of the built-in advantage Calalang/Johnson would have over them in a "real" competition on some of the elements like the lifts and twist. And so it was very easy here for C/L to crush C/J, who struggled with the jumps and throws. C/J's jump in the SP absolutely should have received -GOE. It was a victory for her to stand it up, but it was a -GOE jump nonetheless and instead just got 0s.

Lu/Mitrofanov got similarly massive GOE that I didn't understand. If we're going to give +3s for a lift that visibly struggles to press up, and +4s for low elements, then we might as well do away with the scores all together and just put the pairs in a rank order. L/M seemed like they were feeling more of the spotlight on them and weren't having an easy time with it, which is understandable.

 

[purplecat]

I was wondering if Jessica would be eligible for a “Skatingly Yours” grant or if they are just for singles skaters.

They said on the TV broadcast that Audrey Lu got the grant this year so a pair skater can receive it. Congrats to Audrey!

 

[moonvine]

They said on the TV broadcast that Audrey Lu got the grant this year so a pair skater can receive it. Congrats to Audrey!

Thanks, I haven’t been watching the TV broadcast. Maybe I should go nominate Jessica.

 

[twirlingaround]

This was a somewhat rough competition where you could feel the impact of the withdrawals but I enjoy watching pair skating regardless. Cain/LeDuc had a great competition, much better than any of their others this year. Did the withdrawal of Knierim/Frazier allow the other top pairs to exhale a little bit, probably. It could have played out differently had they been there, but of course we'll never know. It wasn't as intense without them though, and it was disappointing they didn't get to compete.

Cain/LeDuc were solid here aside from the salchow miss. They had a clear UR on a 2T that didn't get called, but I don't think any discipline at Nationals was calling URs that hard. I was glad there was such a clear-cut winner, otherwise I don't know if this type of scoring (massive GOE given out for everything) would have necessarily told us who would have beaten who in a "regular" competition.

This was the best competition Cain/LeDuc have had in years even with the botched combo. Those were the two best 3Lo she's ever done in a competition. These were the best 3 throw landings she's ever done in one competition (it seems like they've made their throws smaller or something, I don't know what exactly it is unless I go back and study it, but they seemed more in control here). With that being said, their pair elements are not that great. Their lifts were not that good here. If you give them massive GOE on every single element, it kills most of the built-in advantage Calalang/Johnson would have over them in a "real" competition on some of the elements like the lifts and twist. And so it was very easy here for C/L to crush C/J, who struggled with the jumps and throws. C/J's jump in the SP absolutely should have received -GOE. It was a victory for her to stand it up, but it was a -GOE jump nonetheless and instead just got 0s.

Lu/Mitrofanov got similarly massive GOE that I didn't understand. If we're going to give +3s for a lift that visibly struggles to press up, and +4s for low elements, then we might as well do away with the scores all together and just put the pairs in a rank order. L/M seemed like they were feeling more of the spotlight on them and weren't having an easy time with it, which is understandable.

Yes, Cain/LeDuc had a solid outing, I think having Knierim/Frazier withdrew took the pressure off of them. C/J have struggled with jumps all season, but the inflation of their scores was crazy. Internationally, no way do Cain/LeDuc score that high on lifts and twist and most often have under rotations. C/J have exceptional Pair Elements and Cain/LeDuc in now way should have come close to them on those elements, but it's Nationals and Cain/LeDuc got it done at Nationals.

 

[skylark]

Yes, Cain/LeDuc had a solid outing, I think having Knierim/Frazier withdrew took the pressure off of them.

I disagree. The three top scoring pairs after the SP -- CainGribble/Leduc, Calalang/Johnson, and Lu/Mitrofanov --if they had aspirations to go to the Olympics this year, which as we know they all did -- were under even greater pressure, because they pretty much knew that it was win the event or bust. That's plenty of pressure for any skater. No room for normal fluctuations in consistency, bobbles or whatever, and once withdrawn, Knierim/Frazier weren't going to have their status for Olympics brought down, by anything. Not that they most likely would have anyway, but there's always a tiny possibility, with any skater(s). Of course, this didn't change K/F's disappointment at not being able to compete. They were ready, and they wanted to skate. US Nationals is a cherished and important event for all those who earn a spot there.

I'm glad it's so clear that C-G/L and K/F both earned their trip to the Olympics fair and square, and clearly. Now let's hope nothing derails those hard-won trips to Beijing.

 

[skylark]

I think there's been too much negative analysis of Ashley and Tim here. They won this event, and re-hashing their struggles in the past is putting the emphasis in the wrong place, IMHO. Unless we're going to celebrate that they have worked so hard to improve, over the past few years, and this season they've been able to live up in competition to what they do in training. I'm bringing a couple of quotes from another thread, from posters who made some brilliant remarks. I did not ask their permission, but I think these belong here.

Ashley and Tim shone with confidence and I was there for it. I think their pairs skating of "two equals" is very compelling.

@TontoK said:

Ashley and Tim were spectacular, by far the best I've ever seen from them. In fact the very best competitive SP + FP I've seen from an American pair in a decade or more. They are deserving winners.

 

[TontoK]

No problem @skylark. I stand by my opinion no matter where it's posted.

I was critical of Tim a few years ago for lack of strength, because it showed, especially in the lifts. Now, while they're not quite as spectacular as Brian and Jessica, they certainly hold their own. Same thing with the twist - massive improvement. My recollection (and I'm not going to track down the protocols to confirm) is that they received nice GOE for these elements, but not quite as much as C/J. In other aspects of the programs, Ash and Tim were scored better. And that's an accurate reflection of what I saw.

I don't think it's fair to judge anything other than what's put on the ice at the competition in question. After all, don't we WANT skaters to improve the weaker aspects of their skating? Ash and Tim's prior competitions, prior form, prior technique, prior mindset... are not relevant to scoring this event.

 

[skylark]

No problem @skylark. I stand by my opinion no matter where it's posted.

I was critical of Tim a few years ago for lack of strength, because it showed, especially in the lifts. Now, while they're not quite as spectacular as Brian and Jessica, they certainly hold their own. Same thing with the twist - massive improvement. My recollection (and I'm not going to track down the protocols to confirm) is that they received nice GOE for these elements, but not quite as much as C/J. In other aspects of the programs, Ash and Tim were scored better. And that's an accurate reflection of what I saw.

That's my recollection as well. And I've been watching the pairs' events to assure sweet dreams, not scary ones.

I don't think it's fair to judge anything other than what's put on the ice at the competition in question. After all, don't we WANT skaters to improve the weaker aspects of their skating? Ash and Tim's prior competitions, prior form, prior technique, prior mindset... are not relevant to scoring this event.

Exactly.

 

[readernick]

Just to add my thoughts, I've been critical of C-G/L's pair elements in the past. I like them very much but it was clear that the pair elements were more difficult for various reasons... Tim's strength vs Ashley's height. They have also been lovely but a bit slow in the past. However, this year and particularly this competition was a huge improvement. Are their twists and lifts as good as C/J? No, even now they aren't. Honestly, C/J have better lifts and twists than the top Russians sometimes. However, their elements were good and deserved good GOE. Was their score inflated? Yes, but so was everyone else's. It's Nationals. Their improvement should be celebrated!

 

[skylark]

I really like this quote from Spencer Akira Howe. He chose to say that he and Emily have other goals besides what placement or result they achieve. And they know that they achieved their goal in this event. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this team; they're very expressive.

“It was an enjoyable experience,” said Howe. “We’ve been training very hard leading up to this event and you can definitely feel it running through those legs with that adrenaline. We have our elements that we need to work on and we can always be better. Our goal is to be able to touch people and showcase our skating and we did that.”

I want to go back and highlight a few memories of the SP and FS. Right from early on, I enjoyed the pairs events so much. When Kate Finster and Matej Silecky began their program, I thought I'd have to mute the music. But the camera focused on their faces, and Matej especially showed me that they weren't going to interpret "Carry You" with a lot of angst or unhappy energy. Instead, they skated with a lot of positive energy, and the feelings I got from their skate were hope, and tender but proud love. I loved it. I like this team.

Katie and Nate struggled in their SP, but they brought their beautiful free skate. They looked happy at the finish. I always love it when a pair looks happy after they skate, before they have definite ideas about how they're going to be scored. And most skaters do exactly that.

 

[skylark]

I finally got around to scrutinizing the programs to answer this post! Actually, I've watched the several top-finishing skaters' programs multiple times, for my own pleasure.

Did the withdrawal of Knierim/Frazier allow the other top pairs to exhale a little bit, probably.

I disagree. All the other pairs who had aspirations to make the Olympic team -- Cain-Gribble/Leduc, Calalang/Johnson, and Lu/Mitrofanov -- were under even greater pressure, because they knew they had to win the competition to earn a spot for the Olympics, given the status of K/F going in.

. I was glad there was such a clear-cut winner,

Me too! Jessica and Brian, Audrey and Misha, knew that the errors they'd made would take them out of the running, given what Ashley and Tim did.

This was the best competition Cain/LeDuc have had in years ... (it seems like they've made their throws smaller or something, I don't know what exactly it is unless I go back and study it, but they seemed more in control here).

I'm no expert, but I went back to slo-mo and stop the tape mid-throws. I don't think their throws are smaller; they're huge, gorgeous. Ashley's feet mid-throw are at the level of Tim's waist, and she's perfectly straight in the air. With her height, that's something. I've seen them do perfect throws like that in official event practices many times, and it's wonderful to see them consistently doing on competition ice what they're capable of. We're happy for their diligent, step-by-step improvement, right, @gold12345? Isn't that what we hope for, with all our US pairs?

 

[gold12345]

I disagree. All the other pairs who had aspirations to make the Olympic team -- Cain-Gribble/Leduc, Calalang/Johnson, and Lu/Mitrofanov -- were under even greater pressure, because they knew they had to win the competition to earn a spot for the Olympics, given the status of K/F going in.

I think the assumption going in was that C-G/L and C/J were likely fighting for one spot, whether K/F competed or not. So there was obviously pressure on all the teams, and I commend C-G/L for getting it done when C/J couldn't. But it's also natural to exhale a bit when the top competitor withdraws; no doubt it becomes easier to win when that happens. The same thing may have happened for Vincent Zhou if Nathan Chen had WD. Would Vincent have skated so tense if Nathan hadn't been there? Maybe he was trying too hard to beat Nathan in that FS. We'll never know for sure, which is why it's always nicer when no key players have to WD. All I know is the pair event didn't have the same intensity as usual without the full field. I gravitate towards K/F to begin with, so their presence was missed for me.

I'm no expert, but I went back to slo-mo and stop the tape mid-throws. I don't think their throws are smaller; they're huge, gorgeous. Ashley's feet mid-throw are at the level of Tim's waist, and she's perfectly straight in the air. With her height, that's something.

Cain/LeDuc definitely don't have huge throws. I don't want to dwell on Ashley's height, because for her height, she's doing unbelievable things (nobody else at that height has competed at her level in recent memory), but their throws aren't huge. I thought their throw 3Lz (or 3F? It has been called Lz all year and was called 3F here--but same value) looked a little more conservative than in the past. And maybe this helped them to have some of their better landings in competition.

We don't always get great camera angles for analyzing the size of throws; they can be deceiving at times. But NBC showed a good, head-on angle of C/L's throw 3S in their outro where you could clearly see its height + distance. The bottom of her feet are definitely below Timothy's waist, and the distance is average. I'd say the size of their throws is average- not super small, but not huge or particularly explosive. These were some of their better landed throws in competition, but they were getting +5s like they were best in the world. It made it easier for them to dominate the competition over Calalang/Johnson. Don't get me wrong, C-G/L clearly deserved to win this by a good margin over C/J who had throw issues of their own and everyone's score was inflated quite a bit, I just think it was easier for C-G/L to win by that much than it may have been in an international event where the GOE are more realistic throughout and C-G/L aren't scoring through the roof on every pair element.