2023 Skate America Pairs Short Program

[Jumping_Bean]

Nope, I totally disagree with Hocke/Kunkel scoring. Something is up with that. They do not have
as good a twist as Liu/ Nagy. Because Liu/ Nagy are a new team, it seems as if the judges didn't want to give them much. And why exactly are Lia & Trennt being held down in points for such a clean skate? L&T were 6th at Worlds. Hocke/ Kunkel were 9th and didn't skate well at Worlds. Is this because L&T are considered #2 in Canada, and H/K are considered #1 in Germany? That's not a good reason. Skaters should be judged on the performances they put out. It just looks like a set-up to me. The judges were apparently ready to give H/K huge scores, while holding down L&T and Lui/ Nagy with overly conservative marks. H/K have been together the longest, but that doesn't make them better than the rest of this field.

L/N had the highest overall GOE here out of all teams (though yes, H/K would have gotten that without the fall), H/K are not #1 in Germany (that's Hase/Volodin, as all of these judges should be well aware of), and how H/K & P/M skated at Worlds should have absolutely no impact on how they are scored here (plus, H/K skated a clean FS and only had one fall in the SP there, so I wouldn't call that "didn't skate well" - They weren't scored well, mostly in PCS, but they skated decently well).

Also, the judges didn't give H/K a similar score in the twist as L/N - The raw (untrimmed) GOE of L/N's twist is by far the highest of all teams here with a 3.0 vs. H/K's 2.22. The reason the total score for the twist ended up so closely together is that H/K had a higher level, adding ~ 0.36 (mostly in BV).

H/K won this SP on levels - In terms of raw GOE, they were 2.01 points behind L/N, and 2.12 behind P/M, but because the actual GOE is scaled to the elements, higher levels can not just increase your BV but also your GOE. - For full transparency, when removing the sbs jumps (which isn't really fair either, as that is almost always P/M's strongest element), H/K are 1.1 points ahead of L/N, and 4.99 ahead of P/M in raw GOE. H/K gained 1.42 on Worlds, P/M lost 2.12 (without jumps)/1.90 (with jumps) - And while I might not agree with the actual points, the direction is right. H/K's twist and throw are bigger than last season, and the lift was better too, while P/M didn't have as good of a twist and some issues with the sbs spins here in comparison to Worlds.

Now, whether the levels are accurate for all teams is a whole other discussion, but not one we can necessarily easily answer due to the camera angles, particularly for the twists (Proper split position? Touching of upper bodies? Basically impossible to see in most cases).

 

[Ruthypegs]

We need a bingo card

that would put the cat amongst the pigeons (another favourite phrase of Chris's....)

 

[throw_triple_flip]

What is with all the conspiracy theories/politics in these comments?

Bonkers.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

For all the people complaining about a lack of Chan and Howe, I've read that he's recently had surgery. They've just withdrawn from Cup of China. If they aren't ready for that, they certainly would've withdrawn from this competition as well.

And remember, they would've been seeded due to their result at Worlds, so would've had a choice about where they wanted to compete.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Now, whether the levels are accurate for all teams is a whole other discussion, but not one we can necessarily easily answer due to the camera angles, particularly for the twists (Proper split position? Touching of upper bodies? Basically impossible to see in most cases).

As far as I understand, if the technical speciallist looks at elements on review to determine the level of an element, they don't look at the footage us viewers are looking at. They have one camera at one particular angle.

I think there is a lack of understanding about how it's scored, so people are making things up to fill in blanks in their knowledge.

 

[readernick]

I’m quite the H/k fan. I always find them under rather than overscored. Particularly given her wonderful performance skills and lovely positions in the lifts. They also have some wonderful pair elements. Their throws are a lot better than the rest of the field. I noticed last year at Worlds that they had the best throws outside of K/F in terms of height and distance according to the Japanese technology.They also got their levels on their steps and their spin wasn’t ugly. Most pairs get max 5 points on side by side jumps. It was quite easy to make up the 4 points they lost on SBS by completing their other elements better, getting level 4s, and having IMHO better components. I don’t get the outrage . Pairs scoring is IMHO generally the least sketchy.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

As far as I understand, if the technical speciallist looks at elements on review to determine the level of an element, they don't look at the footage us viewers are looking at. They have one camera at one particular angle.

I think there is a lack of understanding about how it's scored, so people are making things up to fill in blanks of their knowledge.

Yes, they have a different angle (maybe even more?), and that is always important to remember when talking about tech panels. It's just that I wanted to point out that it would be very hard for us as viewers to accurately make a judgment on whether the technical callers were rather generous or more strict during this SP, because the angles in the broadcast were not great, especially for the twists.
If I for example can't see one leg at all, or can't see the separation of the legs from the side but only from the back, I can't say if the twist should have been given a level for the split feature, etc.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

What the hell was that!!!???? I totally agree with you. No way should H/K be in first with the blunder on the jump. They are not that much better than the field. They are certainly not an entire element better. The judges gave them sky high GOEs, which was just baffling. No question they should be behind P/M, and by a good margin.

Germany, that country with massive influence in the ISU is able to screw over powerless Canada and USA... (?!)

The Germans were of better quality overall. With a clean skate they are pushing 70 in a SP. They are a good team who earn strong component scores. None of the other teams are quite at their level yet. The teams in second and third are new teams. The Germans have been skating together for at least 4 years now and it shows.

 

[meem]

I'm no expert re: pairs but one thing I do notice is whether or not a pairs spin is synchronized. The only team whose pairs spin (according to my eyes ) was totally synchronized last night was the British. It's like fingernails on a blackboard for me when the spins are off.

 

[TontoK]

I'm not sure why the back-and-forth concerning the judging in this event, at least as far as the top three teams go.

Each of these pairs had things going for them, and they each had something that could be improved. One team fell but had better presentation and a good throw and spins. One team had the best twist, but the SBS were sketchy and the spins were bad. One team had better SBS and a solid throw but a sketchy twist and a bad spin. One team had... etc etc.

All in all, my overall impression was that this was could have gone either way in terms of placement. The scores appropriately reflect a tight outcome. I don't see the problem.

 

[TontoK]

I'm no expert re: pairs but one thing I do notice is whether or not a pairs spin is synchronized. The only team whose pairs spin (according to my eyes ) was totally synchronized last night was the British. It's like fingernails on a blackboard for me when the spins are off.

The first American pair... the youngsters who went first... had a fantastic spin. It was the last element, and it left me (and presumably the judges) with a good impression and a desire to see more of this pair as they develop.

*Edit: I just checked the protocols, and they "won" the spin element. I also checked their names, since I should probably know them... Isabelle Martins and Ryan Bedard.

 

[4everchan]

I think the judging is fine. This is just normal "after the live event" discussion... It's on every thread at every competition. People like to express their thoughts.

Here is one : I really liked how judges were not willing to give high GOE for SBS jumps and spins that were not well timed and at a reasonable distance. What I like about pairs is that it combines great skills in terms of single skating and pairs element. The BV of jumps and spins is very low compared to some of the pairs elements already. Not rewarding the poorly executed syncrho on the spins for example helps giving an edge to those who spent the time and mastered that element. I approve

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

What is with all the conspiracy theories/politics in these comments?

Bonkers.

Figure skating is all about politics, perception and rep, in addition to what happens on the ice. As much as you may not want it to be true that politics plays a role in the scoring, it is true, and it has been the case since the very beginning of competitive figure skating events.

 

[withwings]

Figure skating is all about politics, perception and rep, in addition to what happens on the ice. As much as you may not want it to be true that politics plays a role in the scoring, it is true, and it has been the case since the very beginning of competitive figure skating events.

... imo sophisticated and plain dishonesty in judging of figure skating was masterfully "introduced" in figure skating during soviet times; came from Russia and for Soviet Union/.Russia.

Have not yet had an opportunity to watch SP in its completeness and from how much have seen- judging was fine

I wish all the pairs today skate their very best. I really do feel thankful to all the skaters for giving this joy- the joy to watch the pair skating. In other parts of the world wars are going on and people are dying while we can experience the beauty of sport/art.
IMO judging was good, no complains at all.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Yes, they have a different angle (maybe even more?), and that is always important to remember when talking about tech panels. It's just that I wanted to point out that it would be very hard for us as viewers to accurately make a judgment on whether the technical callers were rather generous or more strict during this SP, because the angles in the broadcast were not great, especially for the twists.
If I for example can't see one leg at all, or can't see the separation of the legs from the side but only from the back, I can't say if the twist should have been given a level for the split feature, etc.

You're 100% right. We're not sat where those judges are, seeing what they see.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Figure skating is all about politics, perception and rep, in addition to what happens on the ice. As much as you may not want it to be true that politics plays a role in the scoring, it is true, and it has been the case since the very beginning of competitive figure skating events.

I don't say that politics doesn't play a part.
But I doubt that fans inventing these stories actually have any first (or second) hand knowledge of how politics in the sport actually works.

Many of these theories either make no sense or are completely contradictory. Or come from a place of not fully understanding how the scoring works. And almost always reflecting the bias of the fan- skaters they don't like are overscored, ones they like underscored.

I've even seen accusations that politics has played a part in start orders at competitions when in reality it's a skater drawing a number at random out of a hat.

And accusations of "home cooking" even though a skater has clearly had their best ever skate (home advantage is also a thing in more objective, non judged sports).

 

[withwings]

imo the best way to watch skating is by not plugging into many opinions,... to stay out on any influence ...to be, as to say, with a pure heart and mind while watching....

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

... imo sophisticated and plain dishonesty in judging of figure skating was masterfully "introduced" in figure skating during soviet times; came from Russia.

have not yet had an opportunity to watch SP in its completeness and from how much have seen- judging was alright, appropriate.

let all pairs today skate their very best. I am so thankful to all the skaters for giving me this joy- to watch pair skating. We do have these figures skating events while in the other parts of the world wars are going on and people are dying. We all are blessed to have these events, these competitions and blessed to have the skaters who truly love skating. Judging was totally fine.

I

It doesn't matter what any of us think about how reasonable the scoring appears to be or not. The thing about politics is, it doesn't have to be dishonest. It just is what it is. Politics exists in every facet of our lives, and in every field of endeavor. It's about who you know, how you're perceived, how you present yourself, what you have achieved, etc. Politics exists in all sports, particularly judged sports. The very fact that there exists a pecking order in skating, is part of the politics of skating. Some of our perceptions too are based on our preferences. It certainly matters what's done on the ice, but how you are perceived coming in, is huge. (And btw, politics is often 'contradictory,' so yep contradictions exist in the politics of figure skating).

H/K have been together longer, they won medals on the GP last season, so despite their 9th place at Worlds, they have some status at SA over the other teams, and not without merit. In general, I think the scoring was fairly conservative for the first teams who skated, but that tends to happen early in the season. I disagree with some of the GOEs and PCS, but that's not unusual.

Everyone can see this the way they see it. But politics is a huge part of figure skating, good, bad, ugly, indifferent, what have you. As Johnny mentioned too, the judges will base their scoring often on how consistent skaters are, which may mean they aren't given full credit on elements they perform well, when their program has mistakes.

Also, it's not just about Russian cheating. There is such a thing that existed, known as European bloc judging. To each their own understanding of figure skating, guys.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

imo the best way to watch skating is by not plugging into many opinions,... to stay out on any influence ...to be, as to say, with a pure heart and mind while watching....

Oh, good for you @withwings! I'm glad for you, if you're able to do that. I know for skaters, they simply try to focus on themselves and doing all they can do that's within their control, because they know there is so much that's out of their control.

 

[moonvine]

Must be moonvine tthrowing all the stuffies! Cool unicorn!

That's how I get interviewed on TV lol. (no, not this time, it was at Nationals in Greensboro)