2024-25 GPF: Men's Thoughts?

[Karoltyna]

The viewing numbers are really shockingly low, especially with all the PR involved. It seems something is not really working here. And don't tell me it is because it is such a niche sport. There are vids from previous GPs with much much better viewership. Not to mention that just over the last week more people went to Saitama to see Yuzuru Hanyu live than clicked the GPF winner's video for free on You Tube; as for the venue audience, twice as more went to see Yuzuru live than the entire GPF. Over the last week, more than 10 times more people actually paid to watch Yuzu skate live online than decided to click the GPF winner's video for free (in fact, it is probably way more cause, as noted by several posters earlier, one fan can generate many clicks, but only one payment, not to mention that clicks can be generated by bots, while payments must come from real customers). This is not just outselling, this is a landslide. These numbers may be buried down, drowned in silence, mocked, dismissed with all sorts of excuses, or may be at last put on the table for serious analysis and long-delayed learning exercise.
And don't tell me all these people are crazy or that the comparison is not fair. It is absolutely fair and moreover, it is necessary, if you want to understand what kind of skating the general public really wants to watch in large numbers. For this is just the general public voting with their legs and their credit cards, the best opinion survey you can ever possibly have. Why TPTB have chosen to be deaf to the public's voice and preferences for all these years remains a mystery to me. Stating that Ilia Malinin has an "unmatched artistry" on ISU social media instead, apparently is not enough to fool the public into believing it, especially while they still have other and better options for comparison.

The winner's and his team's response to UR calls are also shocking, showing a sense of entitlement and expectation to have his URs and other mistakes uncalled. I imagine the outcry if such complaints came from some other camp(s). But what is the source of this entitlement and these expectations, where do they come from, how were they born and how have they been fed? This should also be treated as material for analysis by anyone who seriously thinks about improving the position of this sport with the public and not just push a selected skater or few for a win or two.

Can't blame people for wanting to pay to watch better skater and performer and not wanting to watch weaker skater and performer, that is hyped by ISU, for free.
We all knew that without healthy Adam, Ilia would win and it wouldn't matter what mistakes he would do - for example get calls on all his jumps. Is this annoying? Yes. For many years they tried to convince us that the developement of the sport is to add more rotations to the jumps. Did they succeed? See first sentence of my post. How will they deal with it now remains to be seen.
TBH I find some low level comps more interesting, showing more sportsmanship and incredible personalities. I don't need quads to enjoy FS.
I think Ilia's own response to the judging during GPF was fine. I'm not a fan of his skating but he seems to be ok as a person.

 

[TallyT]

The viewing numbers are really shockingly low, especially with all the PR involved.

The current type of PR seems to be doing as much harm as good.

Over the last week, again, tentatively speaking, more than 10 times more people actually paid to watch Yuzu skate live online than decided to click the GPF winner's video for free (in fact, it is probably way more cause, as noted by several posters earlier, one fan can generate many clicks, but only one payment, not to mention that clicks can be generated by bots, while payments must come from real customers).

While I am as cheered as anyone by lots of views on my favourites in skating or otherwise (my little historical cooking show for instance) I am even more cheered by the number of comments, which a real person had to watch and care enough to write down. While - as I have said before on other threads - Yuzu is an outlier and the simultaneous loss of both him and the Russian soap opera blew an enormous hole in the sport's popularity, the size of the live audience and the viewing figures right now (it's been two years, y'all) are not going to make ISU's job of finding new sponsors any better. Especially given that there is no TV audience any more, so the livestream is it in total, and the livestream gets yanked after a day or two. Honestly, fans need to download as soon as the ISU stream is done and then repost (they will mostly then get yanked for copyright but surely some can manage to stay up for a while!)

The winner's and his team's response to UR calls are also shocking, showing a sense of entitlement and expectation to have his URs and other mistakes uncalled.

Yeah, that agent's interview was a... thing. Doesn't Malinin have all the sponsors now anyway, URs or not? (I am honestly asking, I don't know who among the current crop does but isn't it the agent's job to attend to that, not to judging?)

Yes. For many years they tried to convince us that the developement of the sport is to add more rotations to the jumps. Did they succeed? See first sentence of my post. How will they deal with it now remains to be seen.

They will imitate the action of the ostrich.

 

[4everchan]

Not convinced Hanyu is a good comparison point when it comes to online viewership. The fact that his fans are willing to spend money to watch him do shows is wonderful but not relevant with YouTube views of current aspiring skaters at GPF offered for free. Some of these kids have never even been to the Olympics yet... and are pretty unknown to most casual fans. It is like comparing yuzu and apples here.

 

[cailuj365]

You can somewhat use the ISU channel to make relative view comparisons between skaters at the same competition, but these views are a fraction of the global figure skating audience. I wouldn't use the raw view numbers on the ISU channel to make any type of commentary on the broad state of figure skating popularity or interest worldwide. Americans are heavily watching Amber and Ilia on the NBC channel, not the ISU channel where the skates are not available to them. I've seen Ilia get like 500K to 3M views easy on NBC when he knocks it out of the park. I'm not worried about the ISU channel views that are geoblocked for most of the world.

 

[Magill]

Oh, I think it is very fair to compare a former competitive great turned professional and the current top crop of the same sport. These are not some "unknown kids", we're talking about the reigning world champ and GPF champ, who's been around for a couple of seasons and is very heavily promoted by ISU, and about the GPF as such which is supposedly the current best of the best in the sport competing against each other, where the reigning world champs in all FS disciplines were present..
But the most valid comparison is, of course, not the views but the ticket sales. Saitama was sold out, Grenoble was not except for maybe this one Saturday afternoon session which looked pretty full. And as I said earlier, even if it was fully sold out for all 4 days, still it would be only half the audience size Yuzuru attracted to Saitama. And of course it was not sold out for all these days, anyone could see it, so the ratio is way higher, we just don't know how much higher and I stay short of making any assumptions here.
And while you might argue the number of tickets is naturally limited by the size of the venue, of course organizers choose the venue based on, among other factors, realistic attendance expectations made by marketing teams, and not by fans. So here you go: sold out Saitama Super Arena 3x14,000= 42,000 and Grenoble 5x4,200 max capacity (not achieved) = 21,000. If you compare it just to men discipline, of course, the gap is even wider.
Ticket-wise Yuzuru outsoId also SOI Japan in Spring with all the current world champs participating and sold better than the last Worlds held in Saitama in 2023 which is an easy comparison. Paid online viewership of his show being at least 10 times higher than free online viewership of the men GPF champion on the official ISU channel is only a cherry on the cake. And BTW, the paid global livestreams were not available in Japan which is Yuzuru's stronghold and where the show was broadcast on TV live and delayed, nor in Russia, which makes it an effective equivalent of ISU channel geoblocking. With the difference being that simple VPN would not allow access to the paid service, unlike to the open YouTube.
And still, the purpose of this exercise is not really to compare just a skater to a skater but to seek an answer to the question of what the public values most in men FS and is willing to pay to watch. And it seems Ilia Malinin and his style of skating, no matter how heavily hyped, is not the one most sought after by the (paying) audience.

 

[Mathman]

Does Starr Andrews still hold the all-time record for You Tube views of a single figure skating perfromance. or has this been eclipsed in recent times? 57,000,000 views for Whip My Hair. I always wondered if she paid any royalties to singer Willow Smith.

 

[Magill]

Yet we were not talking about YouTube viewership per se but about ticket sales which is kind of a hard indicator unlike YT views, and the unusual circumstance of paid livestream viewing being higher than viewing in free open YouTube which is a completely different beast than just comparing YT views. As regards YouTube part, it was not about how high YT views were but quite to the contrary, how low they were.
And, yes, if we are talking about what the public wants to see, paid viewership is very indicative for real interest. Probably more valid than any poll, as it is measuring behaviour and not expressed opinion, with behaviour always considered a more valid indicator, and paid viewership, both purchased tickets and exclusive online access, being stronger indicator of real interest than free viewership.
And more reliable as it is more difficult to cheat as someone really needs to make this payment

 

[museksk8r]

The public is going to know a skater who went to 3 Olympics and won it twice and competed in the senior ranks for a decade over a skater who is only in his 3rd season in the senior ranks, never been to an Olympics, and only won 1 world championship and 2 Grand Prix Finals. Also, you cannot even begin to compare Japan and the United States where figure skating popularity is concerned. Figure skating was at its peak here in the ‘90s and all the skaters of that generation became very wealthy with the number of pro competitions and skating shows that resulted from the Tonya/Nancy saga. I would say the popularity of the sport in the States died down considerably when Michelle Kwan did not win the 2002 Olympic gold in SLC, along with the pairs drama that made headlines and put the integrity of the sport into serious doubt. When the code of points judging system was introduced during the 2003/2004 Grand Prix season and all the backlash to it in the media here happened compounded by the fact that neither Sasha Cohen nor Michelle Kwan won Olympic gold, you could basically stick a fork in skating’s popularity in the US. Now if Ilia were a woman, there would be a little more attention on him here, but not to the point that its popularity here could compete with its popularity in Japan. Japan treats skating with respect and it’s treated like a serious sport there. One need only to watch the NHK Trophy broadcast and compare it to the Skate America broadcast. Japan is all class and taste while the US is cheap and tacky.

 

[Magill]

So I repeat for those in the back, and I promise I'm doing it for the last time : in tickets sales Yuzuru outsold not just Ilia Malinin, but the entire Grand Prix Final. One man against 6 best skaters across all four FS disciplines together skating twice each plus gala. And he's done it with people from 33 countries in the stalls, not just Japanese audience. Paid viewership of his shows bigger than free viewership of GPF most popular video on YT is just a cherry on the cake. And of course you can compare it. In fact, you should, to know where the sport is going and whether it is the same direction the biggest chunk of the public is looking to. Of course it shows how great and popular he is. Whoever said he was bigger than the sport itself, was just proven right here sort of literally, in attendance and financial aspects, too. But it also shows the current standing of the competitive skating with the public is not very great. Really hard to deny it.
Why make it a comparison between Japan and US, I don't know. GPF was not in US, neither were there only American skaters. In fact, quite a few Japanese competed in several disciplines.

 

[gkelly]

Are casual fans more likely to buy ticket to a competition (several days long and often far from home) or to a show (a single afternoon or evening, usually at a lower total price -- especially a touring show that is more likely to be performing close to home)?

Naturally some fans have specific preferences for competitions or for shows, and diehard fans are willing to travel to watch skating. But for newer/less experienced fans, I think shows would be an easier sell.

 

[Skating91]

Are casual fans more likely to buy ticket to a competition (several days long and often far from home) or to a show (a single afternoon or evening, usually at a lower total price -- especially a touring show that is more likely to be performing close to home)?

Naturally some fans have specific preferences for competitions or for shows, and diehard fans are willing to travel to watch skating. But for newer/less experienced fans, I think shows would be an easier sell.

The GP final is the best ISU event of the season. 6 of the best ISU skaters from every discipline -- seniors and juniors. It was only a small arena as well, which is better for spectators few bad seats so no excuse for not being able to sell 4k seats. Tickets were very inexpensive as well.

Something changed after we had those two GP finals cancelled due to COVID because I remember that one in 2019 having big crowds even for the junior women.

 

[DancingCactus]

Yuzu is an outlier in modern figure skating. Nevertheless, the ISU has to do something to get bums on seats. I repeat my suggestion to hold major figure skating events in major cities in major countries and sell them as a must see event to the general public, not just to the hardcoee fans. Hear me, ISU?

 

[eppen]

Didn't you correct me saying that Kevin Reynolds quads at 4CC were under so he's not the first to do much of anything ? Then why does it count in your books for Ilia... Trying is one thing... succeeding is another thing

Ahh, that was different, was it not? That 4CC for Kevin was celebrated as the first time someone landed all quads in a 2+3 layout IIRC. He did not since the short quads were both <. And I also mentioned the time he did do it at CAN nats a few weeks earlier. Since "firsts" are often considered only for international comps (and there is a reason for that since domestic results are much harder to come by and the quality of judging can be lower than in intl comps), the actual first time does not get mentioned as such.

I celebrate Ilia's achievement as the first time anyone has ever attempted all 6 quads in one program. The next step would be to land them all fully rotated and finally perhaps the crowning glory of getting them all with GOE+ would be the real thing. We'll have to wait and see if he can get it done...

E

 

[Magill]

But why not the simplest answer? That people go to an event they want to see and think worthy of their money and time, and if they cannot afford it in terms of money or time, or fail to get a ticket, they watch it on TV or online, live or delayed, for free or for a fee, whatever's available. If they neither go to the event, nor watch it otherwise, even for free, probably they did not find it appealing enough, no matter where it was held and how much the tickets were.
There is a reason why ice shows are normally not held in Saitama but the Worlds are when they are in Japan. It really is a huge venue, expensive to rent and pretty difficult to fill. Apparently they believe the Worlds would sell more tickets than a show. That's why Yuzuru Hanyu shows in Saitama are always such a oh-la-la. Cause it's rare and bold to stage a show in such a huge venue, and for several days. And this was actually his second one that premiered there and sold it out.
And at the same time we know that the last Worlds which were held in Saitama in 2023 did not manage to sell it out even for one day, in the very same venue, in this same skating loving country, with the same local residents nearby and all of Tokyo just a short ride away, and despite Japanese skaters winning 3 out of 4 disciplines. An alarm signal causing Japanese sponsors to complain to ISU for the event not being attractive enough for the public, even just to be watched on TV in satisfying numbers. Just for comparison and some reality check .
Playing down or denying these simple facts has been done for long enough and I seriously doubt that more of the same thing can change the trend. So maybe look for reasons also on the ice and not just off it?
And no, I don't mean to blame the skaters, they are just working hard and doing what they can to meet the requirements and collect those points. It is rather about those requirements and programs they give birth to, the way they are later scored and judged...

 

[eppen]

What I find really sad and discouraging is that Hanyu's enormous popularity did apparently nothing to boost figure skating as a sport. The events he attended to - about 15 in his last 3 seasons incl. nationals - were certainly packed and the stream views must have been through the roof.

But did his popularity increase attendance at the Europeans or any other competition that he did not participate in? I don't think so, but if anyone has any data to show otherwise I would be interested to see it... The Russian girl quadsters might have been a slight boost to the rest of the scene, but even I don't think any of the Europeans at their time were sold out (I went to many of them, so that is based on partially my own experience).

Sponsors were sure shoveling money in when Hanyu was around and equally quickly took it away since they did recognize that it was about that one person, not about the sport in general.

In addition to views, one could also look at social media figures. Though the ones I follow are not the ones that measure popularity among the younger generations (ie, no TikTok for me :-D). Inspired by Ari Zakarian celebrating Ilia's 200 000 followers on IG...

The top figures for other current male skaters Jason 283 000, Junhwan 277 000, Yuma 114 000, Kevin 56 300, Deniss 49 700, Adam 46 200, the rest below that.

As a comparison, the biggest ones in general I could find were Elladj Balde 802 000 (never was a big competition star), Adam Rippon 756 000 (never was a big competition star), Nathan Chen 576 000 (OGM), Javier Fernandez 251 000 (2xWC, OGB), Shoma Uno 113 000 (2xWC, OGS, OGB). Hanyu would obviously score millions, but there is no official account, I think.

And compared to women those are peanuts: Trusova 1,6 million, Yuna 1,4 million, Medvedeva 1,3 million, Zagitova 1,1 million, Shcerbakova 841 000, Tuktamysheva 371 000, Ashley Wagner 193 000. The current girls, however, not great - Loena with 150 000 is a top name. Kaori has no IG account, I guess?

Are the superstars enough to make the entire sport popular with the general public? Yuna Kim was not a saviour, nor Mao Asada. Michelle Kwan's retirement has been often associated with the decline of the sport's popularity, but I think the rise began long before she became a star and the decline before she retired from competition. Hanyu did nothing in the long run and he was bigger than the rest put together. The Russian women ditto (put together they are close to Hanyu??)...

Don't think the massive stars, quadsters or even the backflippers will be enough to turn the tide for figure skating in general. (Though backflipping can be lucrative for individuals - that's how Elladj started getting big...)

E

 

[Mathman]

... hold major figure skating events in major cities in major countries and sell them as a must see event to the general public,...

Alas, I don't think that the ISU has the power to convince the general public that their offerings are must-see events.

 

[Magill]

What I find really sad and discouraging is that Hanyu's enormous popularity did apparently nothing to boost figure skating as a sport. The events he attended to - about 15 in his last 3 seasons incl. nationals - were certainly packed and the stream views must have been through the roof.

But did his popularity increase attendance at the Europeans or any other competition that he did not participate in? I don't think so, but if anyone has any data to show otherwise I would be interested to see it... The Russian girl quadsters might have been a slight boost to the rest of the scene, but even I don't think any of the Europeans at their time were sold out (I went to many of them, so that is based on partially my own experience).

It was not Yuzuru's or any other individual athlete's job to "do something" about the popularity of the sport or any event he was not a part of. So I'd rather have it worded ISU did nothing to boost the sport's popularity based on the stardom of their brightest stars while they had them in their comps. It was their job and nobody else's, and yet they were just collecting money and doing nothing. Still, whenever it is mentioned, there would be an outcry that it is Yuzuru fans demanding more attention to him at the expense of this or that somebody's "fave" while in fact he's been getting all attention he might need or even more. It is the sport that failed to have used a bit of this popular attention he's been enjoying, while it could have, if it was managed differently, better, smarter, more efficiently and in a more modern and less backstage-politics-based way.
Many other sport organizations manage to use their stars popularity to lever the whole sport's standing with the public. If ISU failed to do that, they are the only ones to be blamed. Now it is a bit too late to fix it, and unlike some others, I do not see Ilia Malinin as a realistic cure.

 

[Jeanie19]

I do not think it is wise to expect one skater to save figure skating. That is a lot of pressure on one person.
The ISU is just doing too much wrong. If a figure skating event has sold less than 50% of the tickets. Then offer free tickets to schools or even local population. If you just get a few new fans, multiply that by x events by y years it will slowly grow.
Also, the YouTube situation of banned videos, needs to be addressed and fixed.
The popularity caused by Tonya/Nancy should never happen again. And the popularity of a skater like Yuzuru may never happen again.

 

[museksk8r]

I have to say for me personally, Amber Glenn’s Glennaissance this season is actually making me excited for US women’s skating; something I haven’t been able to say since Michelle Kwan retired. I really hope her newfound consistency this season sticks. I think Amber has that charisma and “it” factor to inspire me to attend a live competition and I am considering now finding ways to possibly attend Boston Worlds. Plus, I am also considering the large possibility that it may be the last opportunity to see Gilles and Poirier and Kaori Sakamoto compete at a world championship.

I have to take deep consideration if the expense is worth it. When I do the math, it’s going to cost me and my partner $4200 and that doesn’t include meals for those days, so we’re really talking $4500. That is really steep for most people to justify spending to watch 1 skating competition.

I’ve only ever attended 2 skating championships live, the 2004 and the 2020 US Nationals. Both times the event happened where I was living, Atlanta, GA in 2004 and Greensboro, NC in 2020, so obviously the expense was more reasonable than the quote for Boston I’ve posted above. The draw for me to go in 2004 was obviously Michelle Kwan and she was phenomenal, so I certainly feel I got my money’s worth. The main draw for me in 2020 was to see Ashley and Timothy defend their pairs title and that didn’t go so well, so the expense felt a bit more like a letdown. It was really cool to see Jason Brown and Nathan Chen though. Plus, Mariah Bell skated the performance of her life in the FS, so it was cool to see that live too.

 

[lariko]

We travel for competitions, but well, Worlds was great once, we don't want to go to the Worlds again. Too large, too crowded, too pricey. GP stages are ideal for us, but a combination of remote places like Allen (the heck they went to Allen twice in a row?) with little infrastructure are also unappealing with air travel being total nightmare nowadays, and the competitons are simply not worth watching any more with all the rule changes since last Olympics. I actually liked paying for a Challenger stream when line up was worth it and will do it again when line-ups improve. But the main thing, the competition needs to be worth watching to watch it live. They are simply not worth it any more, even with Malinin, if it's just Malinin. The line-ups in the GP stages are all the same skaters year after year pretty much. We already saw everyone who competes now live. It's the same skaters, over and over.