3S-2S combination

[LiamForeman]

Can someone explain this 3S-2S combo and why it is sooooo good? I thought this summer the rules were changed that there would be a deduction/penalty for a change of edge in between combos? I mean, she should be working on 3S-2Lutz if she wants to go CCW-CW. Did Sonja Hilmer get a deduction for her change of edge in between the two jumps? Or does that only just apply to Russian skaters such as Valieva? (Which was CLEARLY obvious why the ISU voted/ruled on such a change of edge injustice) Just trying to think through this new rule and how a 3S-2S wouldn't be penalized under the new rules.... Again, very short-sighted ISU as per usual.

ETA: I've watched clips of Valieva actively working on holding the edge this summer, and well, she adapted. Quelle surprise. And maybe/probably she's working on -3Loop combos too anyway, which she's been doing for years in practice. She's amazing.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Can someone explain this 3S-2S combo and why it is sooooo good? I thought this summer the rules were changed that there would be a deduction/penalty for a change of edge in between combos? I mean, she should be working on 3S-2Lutz if she wants to go CCW-CW. Did Sonja Hilmer get a deduction for her change of edge in between the two jumps? Or does that only just apply to Russian skaters such as Valieva? (Which was CLEARLY obvious why the ISU voted/ruled on such a change of edge injustice) Just trying to think through this new rule and how a 3S-2S wouldn't be penalized under the new rules.... Again, very short-sighted ISU as per usual.

ETA: I've watched clips of Valieva actively working on holding the edge this summer, and well, she adapted. Quelle surprise. And maybe/probably she's working on -3Loop combos too anyway, which she's been doing for years in practice. She's amazing.

First of all, I want to say the rule is hardly applied, it was put there to make people happy. You ever seen the prerotation rule applied? No, because they don't apply those rules.

Although, on the topic of this rule: the spirit of the rule was there so that people didn't use it to reload and make it easier to do a cascade, it wasn't intended for jumps like this. It wasn't an injustice vote at all, and Russians weren't the only people doing it. We all got taught this technique, and it is wrong, bad technique and not how a combination should work (as well as potentially causing damage to upper body). It'd labouring jumps instead of relying on technique and landing of first jump.
Combinations shouldn't be like this, it's a butchering new cheat technique to make them easier rather than preserve quality of combinations (and as I said, whilst some Russians notably Valieva do this, other russians e.g. Kolyada, Tuktamysheva etc dont). In fact, I donr even think Russians were neccessarily the first to do this, even if its a common Tutberidze trait nowadays.

When something is lower quality it deserves lower GOE - agree on this point? And a change of edge in between combos to reload makes them lower quality. This is how the rule came in place, to prevent individual judges being conflicted on how to punish GOe of a lower quality jump when no rule there is invoked about edge change.

Whilst I don't think this jump breaks the spirit of the rules, it'd be perfectly reasonable to follow them and award negative GOE for the edge change. In fact, it would probably encourage further rule discussions and clarifications. I'll be waiting to see what happens next with this.

Please note however, that even if the rule is applied, it doesn't automatically mean negative GOE. GOE on jumps is additive. You can get negative bullets that balance with positive ones. I believe this jump got negative goe anyways due to the landing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think in this case the change of edge is critical to the execution of the second jump instead of less-than-ideal technique used to stabilize the landing of the first jump in a combo (as we see in -3T combos). A good judge would acknowledge and award GOE for the difficulty in such a combo instead of deduct for the change of edge needed to execute the second salchow.

And when you can execute as nicely as this, yeah, it definitely deserves good GOE. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=426719309413759 Many judges gave it a +2 and one even gave it a +4... I can't seem to find video of her doing it at Cranberry Cup though - but would that be the first time a reverse jump combo was performed in ISU competition? (edit: she did it at Glacier Falls - it did get +GOE, but I'd have given it a 0 given the 2S scratchy landing - so cool though... and love the reverse camel-catchfoot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE65csDzZDM)

Also, Sonja's a pretty cool/innovative skater, and I only just learned about her.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2IiIVPfXX4 Hopefully she gets more prominence.

 

[macy]

you literally cannot execute the 2S without the change of edge in this scenario. the skater lands on the natural outside edge and has to switch to inside on the same leg to execute the inside edge takeoff of the salchow in the other direction. which in itself takes a high level of skill not only to do a double jump in the opposite direction, but have enough core strength and control to perform it in a combination like this. there's a reason you don't see skaters perform these types of combos, and its not only because of the rules.

Kamila Valieva does not perform these types of combos, she performs combos where the same landing edge is required between jumps- 3Lz+3T or 3A+3T, in which she wobbles from outside to inside back to outside, which is now against the rules, to reset herself and wind up for the second jump.

but of course, what would any thread be nowadays without the woe is me Russia narrative even though that argument has absolutely no logic in this scenario

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

you literally cannot execute the 2S without the change of edge in this scenario. the skater lands on the natural outside edge and has to switch to inside on the same leg to execute the inside edge takeoff of the salchow in the other direction. which in itself takes a high level of skill not only to do a double jump in the opposite direction, but have enough core strength and control to perform it in a combination like this. there's a reason you don't see skaters perform these types of combos, and its not only because of the rules.

Kamila Valieva does not perform these types of combos, she performs combos where the same landing edge is required between jumps- 3Lz+3T or 3A+3T, in which she wobbles from outside to inside back to outside, which is now against the rules, to reset herself and wind up for the second jump.

but of course, what would any thread be nowadays without the woe is me Russia narrative even though that argument has absolutely no logic in this scenario

Valieva isn't the only one to do that - several skaters have an outside-inside-outside change in their 3T combo because it's harder to maintain the outside edge and hit the right timing on the combo (though it seems to be an Eteri thing moreso than a Russia in general thing)... the wobble edge helps the skater get a bit more momentum into the tap for the 3T. Definitely for the 3S+2S the skater needs to make sure that their exit edge on the 3S isn't so deep that they lose speed on the change of edge going into the 2S.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Valieva isn't the only one to do that - several skaters have an outside-inside-outside change in their 3T combo because it's harder to maintain the outside edge and hit the right timing on the combo (though it seems to be an Eteri thing moreso than a Russia in general thing)... the wobble edge helps the skater get a bit more momentum into the tap for the 3T. Definitely for the 3S+2S the skater needs to make sure that their exit edge on the 3S isn't so deep that they lose speed on the change of edge going into the 2S.

Yeah, for example, Ekaterina Ryabova also has the same edge wiggle issue in combinations as Kamila - But unlike Kamila, her combinations at least don't get sky-high GOE. (The highest she has ever gotten at a GP/Worlds/Euros is +1.1 on a 3Lz+3T, that's the equivalent of a +2 in raw GOE).

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Yeah, for example, Ekaterina Ryabova also has the same edge wiggle issue in combinations as Kamila - But unlike Kamila, her combinations at least don't get sky-high GOE. (The highest she has ever gotten at a GP/Worlds/Euros is +1.1 on a 3Lz+3T, that's the equivalent of a +2 in raw GOE).

Nothing to add here, but I'm now going to adopt the term "Raw GOE" for the future.