A Case for Mirai Nagasu

[Mathman]

I agree that fairness and USFSA objectives should be weighed, perhaps with a bit extra weight on fairness.

I agree with your post, but I found this sentence to sort of sardonic. On the one hand we have fair play. On the other, and opposed to fair play, we have the objectives of the USFSA. It seems like the USFSA should be the embodiment and champion of fair play, not its enemy.

 

[SnowWhite]

That is not correct. The 'Four Continents' are comprised of the Americas (the ISU lumps North and South together), Asia, Africa, and Oceania. Australia is considered as part of Oceania. North and South America are technically two separate continents but not for the ISU's purposes. Also, I believe some skaters from South America have skated at 4CCs. At least one from Argentina IIRC.

Denis Margalik (who used to compete for Canada) competed at 4CC for Argentina the last two seasons.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I agree with your post, but I found this sentence to sort of sardonic. On the one hand we have fair play. On the other, and opposed to fair play, we have the objectives of the USFSA. It seems like the USFSA should be the embodiment and champion of fair play, not its enemy.

To an extent, yes, I think the USFSA ensures fairness by trying to give our hard-working athletes a fair evaluation and opportunities to shine here and abroad. OTOH, the USFSA wants its athletes to bring home hardware, and to a lesser extent promote more "marketable" skaters. Those missions require a bit of favoritism to accomplish, whether that means giving an Olympic spot to a talented skater who underperformed at Nationals or boosting the scores of young, exciting skaters far beyond what they earn internationally.

 

[LRK]

Nothing against Alexa and Chris, but I think it is a stretch to call them "dominant." "The best we have in a weak field," maybe. In their career they have won the Cup of Nice, the U.S. Classic B, the Ice Challenge B, and the 2015 U.S. Championship, in addition to high finishes in a few other events such as 4CCs.

Todd Eldredge is a better example of what has traditionally been regarded as "a dominant skater." He medalled at the World Championship 5 times (out of five attempts), winning the world championship in 1996. He won the U.S. Championship 4 times and Skate America 4 times.

OK, he wasn't "dominant" in quite the same sense that, say, Evgeny Plushenko was dominant. Still, in the past the USFSA was pretty stingy with applying this designation.

That said, go S&K!

Off topic, but, Plushy did refer to Todd as a "legend" in an interview (in passing; he was talking about Worlds' 1998, but still, if he said it, he meant it.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Todd Eldredge is a better example of what has traditionally been regarded as "a dominant skater." He medalled at the World Championship 5 times (out of five attempts), winning the world championship in 1996. He won the U.S. Championship 4 times and Skate America 4 times.

Actually, 6 times in 8 attempts Impressively, he first won Nationals in 1990 and for the last time in 2002.

 

[Figure 8's]

correct or a huge wack like Nancy Kerrigan could do it too.

That is not even funny. But less you forget, Kerrigan did go and Michele Kwan was bumped off the team. Kwan never did forget it either.

 

[Ares]

That is not even funny. But less you forget, Kerrigan did go and Michele Kwan was bumped off the team. Kwan never did forget it either.

Kwan was seriously considered for Lillehammer Olympic Games? I guess you learn new things every day.

 

[concorde]

Kwan was seriously considered for Lillehammer Olympic Games? I guess you learn new things every day.

Tonya won Nationals, most likely due to "the wack." A "newbie" named Michelle Kwan got second. The commentarors said that Michelle's coach thought she was too young to compete as a Senior but Michelle secretly test (and passed) her Senior tests without her coaches being aware of it.

Knowing what I now know about the testing process, not sure how that could have happened. But maybe things were different back then.

 

[frida80]

Kwan was seriously considered for Lillehammer Olympic Games? I guess you learn new things every day.

She won silver that year in nationals, so she qualified for the Olympics.

 

[mrrice]

Tonya won Nationals, most likely due to "the wack." A "newbie" named Michelle Kwan got second. The commentarors said that Michelle's coach thought she was too young to compete as a Senior but Michelle secretly test (and passed) her Senior tests without her coaches being aware of it.

Knowing what I now know about the testing process, not sure how that could have happened. But maybe things were different back then.

I would imagine that Michelle was checked into the event by her Parents. It is also quite possible that her Father Danny signed in as her coach. I believe he was the one who worked with Michelle before Frank was hired. Otherwise, I don't think she would have done it. For me, I would have been a nervous wreck without my ballet teacher being there.

 

[Ares]

She won silver that year in nationals, so she qualified for the Olympics.

There was no age limit back than? I mean Michelle was still 13 years old in that time.

 

[shiroKJ]

The age 15 minimum rule was put into effect the following Olympics. I think in 1995/96

 

[Mathman]

I would imagine that Michelle was checked into the event by her Parents. It is also quite possible that her Father Danny signed in as her coach. I believe he was the one who worked with Michelle before Frank was hired. Otherwise, I don't think she would have done it. For me, I would have been a nervous wreck without my ballet teacher being there.

The story that is usually told is quite the opposite. Michelle cooked this up on her own and when her coach wouldn't go along, she went to her father and told him that she wanted to test for seniors. Danny Kwan asked her, "What does your coach say?" and Michelle answered mumble mumble mumble. So Danny Kwan took her and the rest is history. (Except the part about Frank flying into a rage when he found out that she had gone behind his back. Well, not exactly a rage, but he sat her down and told here very sternly what it was that she had signed up for, and she better be prepared to work for it. )

Michelle had been working with Frank Carroll since she was 11 years old. She got some kind of scholarship or financial help to pay for her skating lessons and ice time.

The USFSA was over a barrel. They had only two spots for ladies at the Olympics. They could hardly deny Nancy Kerrigan. Nancy was at her peak and, once recovered from the knee injury, she had to be sent as U.S. main chance for an Olympic gold metal. Tonya "won" the U.S. championship after Nancy was taken out, so she had a right to go. The USFSA tried to kick her off the team, but Tonya threatened to sue them if they did because she had not been convicted of any crime. Michelle attended the Lillehammer Games as an alternate, ready to jump in if the USFSA was able to get the goods on Tonya in time.

Something like that.

In the official record book it says that there was no U.S. champion in 1994, with Michelle Kwan as the silver medalist.

 

[karne]

^Here, the skater's coach has to sign off on the test form. It would surprise me if that wasn't a requirement in the US.

 

[jenaj]

It's still a little surprising to me, uber fan that I am, to see that not every skating fan knows the details of Michelle Kwan's rise from jumping bean to legend. To add a few more details, she went to Lillehammer as first alternate. I guess the USFSA was still hoping to get rid of Tonya. At Worlds that year, the US team consisted only of 13 year old Michelle after Nicole Bobek failed to make the cut for the long program. She had to finish in the top 10 for the US to keep 2 spots and she did. The next year she was 4th in the World After that, she was on the World podium for the next 9 years. Five golds, three silvers and one bronze.

 

[concorde]

The skater is supposed to clear it with the coach first.

At my club, all sign-ups are now done electronically by the skater, not the coach. During sign up, we have to provide the coach's email - my guess is the coach then gets a notificatuon from the club that their skater has signed up.

But when Michelle did it, it was before electronic sign ups. So I guess the skater signed up and the burden was on the skater to notify the coach so the system was easier to work.

 

[cmk]

Kwan was seriously considered for Lillehammer Olympic Games? I guess you learn new things every day.

The Usfa unfairly wanted to kick Tonya off the team. Personally I thought the Olympic team should of been Tonya and Michelle. I never cared for Nancy's skating (overrated, "fake", and had a sense of entitlement). I was hoping they would prove Nancy staged the attack herself so she could make the team without having to compete (the Detroit's cop thought that too but dismissed it quickly (too quickly in mind opinion-what if the truth about Nancy's affair and breaking up her agent't marriage came out sooner?).
Sadly it was not to be. I think skating would of been much better off if Tonya could have been proven innocent, and if she was able to skate at Olympics like she did at nationals, she could of medalled. Tonya was a great technician and far more artistic than she was given for. She wasn't feminine but that wasn't what was supposed to be judged. Nancy was a lesss than mediocre skater that the judges liked because of the way she looked and her vera wang dresses, but she wasn't that great of a skater- her spins were poor, she attempted less technically than other skaters, and even her trademark spiral-she had to hold the leg (its harder without the leghold).
Michelle did go to worlds and finished 8th or so in 94, Bobek was unprepared and didn't make it out of the qualifying round, then rebounded to win 95 nationals and 95 world bronze medal.

I lost a lot of respect for Scott Hamilton when I learned he was the one behind the blackballing of Tonya to keep her out of pro events. I really do think all Tonya wanted to do was skate, and her hubby and his friends did it behind her back. The skating world simply took advantage and twisted the circumstamial evidence to get rid of a skater they simply didn't like.

My solution would of been to let Tonya keep the 94 title (she would of won it anyway even if Nancy had competed) , not try to kick her out of spot she earned, not give Nancy an Olympic spot she didn't earn, let Michelle go since she did finish 2nd and earned the spot . The appropriate punish would maybe not let Tonya go to 94 worlds, suspend for a year from ametur ,
but she should of been able to do pro events and ice shows. People forget that Nancy wasn't the most likeable person either (her comments about Oksana, Disney, etc), she was just as inconsistent (her disaster at 93 worlds was why we didn't have 3 spots), and that Nancy had an affair with her still married agent, broke up that marriage, and married him.

 

[Amei]

They didn't need Mirai to retain the 3 spots last year. Ashley was 2nd and Gracie was 4th. It didn't matter where Mirai finished.

Ashley and Gracie regained the three spots at Worlds 2013 with Ashley 5th and Gracie 6th. When Ashley, Gracie and Polina competed, they all finished top 10: 2014 Gracie 5th, Ashley 7th, Polina 8th; 2015 Gracie 4th, Ashley 5th, Polina 8th.

This year, only Ashley can be counted on to finish in the top 6. Even Mirai wouldn't be guaranteed any higher than 10th if she had managed to finish top 3 at Nationals.

Without Gracie, the 3 spots are gone. That's the way it's going to be, unfortunately.

Given how Gracie has skated this year, if she went to Worlds it would be just as much of a wild card in terms of what type of performance we'd get as Karen, Mariah or Mirai - the only upside to Gracie vs. other 3 is that she is more likely to get more favorable scoring for a poor performance.

 

[Jammers]

The Usfa unfairly wanted to kick Tonya off the team. Personally I thought the Olympic team should of been Tonya and Michelle. I never cared for Nancy's skating (overrated, "fake", and had a sense of entitlement). I was hoping they would prove Nancy staged the attack herself so she could make the team without having to compete (the Detroit's cop thought that too but dismissed it quickly (too quickly in mind opinion-what if the truth about Nancy's affair and breaking up her agent't marriage came out sooner?).
Sadly it was not to be. I think skating would of been much better off if Tonya could have been proven innocent, and if she was able to skate at Olympics like she did at nationals, she could of medalled. Tonya was a great technician and far more artistic than she was given for. She wasn't feminine but that wasn't what was supposed to be judged. Nancy was a lesss than mediocre skater that the judges liked because of the way she looked and her vera wang dresses, but she wasn't that great of a skater- her spins were poor, she attempted less technically than other skaters, and even her trademark spiral-she had to hold the leg (its harder without the leghold).
Michelle did go to worlds and finished 8th or so in 94, Bobek was unprepared and didn't make it out of the qualifying round, then rebounded to win 95 nationals and 95 world bronze medal.

I lost a lot of respect for Scott Hamilton when I learned he was the one behind the blackballing of Tonya to keep her out of pro events. I really do think all Tonya wanted to do was skate, and her hubby and his friends did it behind her back. The skating world simply took advantage and twisted the circumstamial evidence to get rid of a skater they simply didn't like.

My solution would of been to let Tonya keep the 94 title (she would of won it anyway even if Nancy had competed) , not try to kick her out of spot she earned, not give Nancy an Olympic spot she didn't earn, let Michelle go since she did finish 2nd and earned the spot . The appropriate punish would maybe not let Tonya go to 94 worlds, suspend for a year from ametur ,
but she should of been able to do pro events and ice shows. People forget that Nancy wasn't the most likeable person either (her comments about Oksana, Disney, etc), she was just as inconsistent (her disaster at 93 worlds was why we didn't have 3 spots), and that Nancy had an affair with her still married agent, broke up that marriage, and married him.

Unfairly? besides the fact that she no doubt was behind the attack on Nancy isn't there some rule of conduct in place for Olympians to behave which she broke? The USOC or USFS should never have caved in and allowed her to go to Lillehammer. She was a disgrace representing the USA.

 

[chuckm]

Given how Gracie has skated this year, if she went to Worlds it would be just as much of a wild card in terms of what type of performance we'd get as Karen, Mariah or Mirai - the only upside to Gracie vs. other 3 is that she is more likely to get more favorable scoring for a poor performance.

I was NOT supposing Gracie at Worlds this year.
But the reality is it was the combination of Gracie+Ashley that won back the 3 ladies spots. Ashley can't do it on her own, and none of Mariah, Karen or even Mirai is skilled enough to fill Gracie's skates and help Ashley hold onto that third spot.