A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[mrrice]

the issue with this, aside from getting an extra day of ice time is that, logistically, it makes little sense...

just giving you a few examples :

Let's say, Shoma goes, messes up his LP, loses many points and is no longer in the top 6.. he is out of the competition, yet he has had to fly himself and his team to the GPF at quite an expense... (even if let's say the ISU would be funding this... it's a lot of money for speculative results)...

Let's say that for instance, Rippon and Brown are ranked 5 and 6 before the FP is reskated for others like Shoma and Chan... who have a very good chance to move them down, if not both, at least one of them.... why would Rippon and Brown fly across the ocean just in the random chance that they would hold on to their GPF assignment, knowing that Shoma and Chan may only need to medal to take them out....

For any re-take of the FP... you have to understand that some skaters wouldn't go...I doubt Denis would bother knowing that he has no chance to qualify... so already, one of the seeded skater is off the hook, making Shoma's and Chan's life much easier to place in the top 3....

Not only there are a bunch of logistical and practical issues but it changes the rules and conditions for skaters.... I believe that all need to have a fair and even chance to qualify, changing rules to give extra skates which will not be done in the same conditions is unfair.... it's also unfair for someone like Misha who couldn't attend because his visa didn't come in in time... would he be given a chance to skate then? if it's postponed?

as soon as one messes with rules, it opens a huge can of worms and there are many ways where it can be unfair for others....

As far as I am concerned, the only fair thing is to move on and make the SP count for medals/points. Skaters, when they performed and competed on Friday, did their best and tried hard to place as high as possible and earn as many points as possible.. yes, some do better traditionally in the LP... but it's like Misha's visa.. it ain't happening...

I am sure if you were to ask the athletes, the first thing they would mention is that under the circumstances, it's best the event was cancelled.... I am also convinced that most of them would be fine with the SP results as final results...

Finally, as far as pairs are concerned... well... it's the same for ice dance... it actually happens quite often that in dance the top 3 are apart by only a couple points, like in WC 2014... so what's different there? THey all skated well, performing similar elements... so that's just that...

4everchan.

I may not always agree with you but, I sure do like the way you explain the points you're making. As stressful as this may be, I think the ISU needs to get these skaters and coaches direct opinion as to how they should resolve this situation. It's going to cost someone something but, I'd rather it be financial than political. Good grief if Debbie Thomas has a go fund me. I can only imagine these skaters would be funded to travel to an addition event if need be.

There's no perfect solution here but I know there are enough judges around that they could run two events at the same time if they have to. For instance, during prelims at Dance Competitions, there are so many teams that they place Judges on both sides of the dance floor. 1 set of judges on the east and one set of judges on the west. While scores are taken from the west facing judges, the east facing judges review the next team and so on. It saves a TON of time and even though it wasn't my favorite thing to do. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[4everchan]

you are not understanding the context of my post... Moriel mentioned a pre GFP free skate to be held just to see who then qualifies... very different adding a random LP rather than competing to an event that was already part of one's season... and for Misha, i am simply using it as an example that unfortunately, sometimes, there are circumstances that prevent one from skating, whether it is a visa, an injury or something as tragic as we have seen this weekend. but for the first two, there is no rule changed... yet, they are rather unfair life events... why would the ISU go around and change a bunch of rules after TEB had to be canceled? I am commenting on the principle that rules are there and in place before the season... changing them midway is unfair to everybody...

Why? Probably for the same reason that Yulia came to compete at TEB this weekend. Skaters don't stop skating just because their chances of making the GPF are slim.



No, because he already withdrew from the event, right? And Misha's situation had zero to do with the Paris terror attacks.

 

[sabinfire]

why would the ISU go around and change a bunch of rules after TEB had to be canceled? I am commenting on the principle that rules are there and in place before the season... changing them midway is unfair to everybody...

Is there a rule in place that states how to handle the current TEB situation, or are they making it up as they go?

 

[tulosai]

Is there a rule in place that states how to handle the current TEB situation, or are they making it up as they go?

There does not appear to be a rule at present covering how this should be dealt with; I assume that there will certainly be one put into place at the next ISU congress.

 

[uhh]

@NorthernDancers, there are no other rinks that would be suitable to use for the practices in Barcelona. You'd need to factor in an extra 2 hours per day (including the required ice resurfacing) for practices alone.

 

[calbskate]

I missed the NBC coverage of TEB this morning. I was just wondering if they mentioned anything about the GPF selection during the broadcast. Did anyone watch the broadcast? Thanks!!

 

[4everchan]

Is there a rule in place that states how to handle the current TEB situation, or are they making it up as they go?

thankfully, up until a few days ago, such a rule wasn't in place... wasn't needed...
maybe there will be one in the future. But for now, what makes the most sense and is the most pragmatic and based on actual results, even if partial, is to assign SP results as overall results... too bad for Chan, Max or Liza or T/M... but at the same time, they could have skated better.. that's all... nobody can guarantee how they would have done in the LP... why make such a fuss about creating a new event? it's just not possible in this time frame... cancelling the event altogether would mean that Shoma , Gracie and V/T or G/P and H/D don't get their hard earned points ... that's also very unfair... so let's count their SP and move on.

 

[Layback11]

thankfully, up until a few days ago, such a rule wasn't in place... wasn't needed...
maybe there will be one in the future. But for now, what makes the most sense and is the most pragmatic and based on actual results, even if partial, is to assign SP results as overall results... too bad for Chan, Max or Liza or T/M... but at the same time, they could have skated better.. that's all... nobody can guarantee how they would have done in the LP... why make such a fuss about creating a new event? it's just not possible in this time frame... cancelling the event altogether would mean that Shoma , Gracie and V/T or G/P and H/D don't get their hard earned points ... that's also very unfair... so let's count their SP and move on.

ITA. At this point, we need to have it figured out and MOVE ON. Give the ones who earned it with their SPs here the points.

 

[sabinfire]

thankfully, up until a few days ago, such a rule wasn't in place... wasn't needed...
maybe there will be one in the future. But for now, what makes the most sense and is the most pragmatic and based on actual results, even if partial, is to assign SP results as overall results... too bad for Chan, Max or Liza or T/M... but at the same time, they could have skated better.. that's all... nobody can guarantee how they would have done in the LP... why make such a fuss about creating a new event? it's just not possible in this time frame... cancelling the event altogether would mean that Shoma , Gracie and V/T or G/P and H/D don't get their hard earned points ... that's also very unfair... so let's count their SP and move on.

Whoa, hold on. You just said the ISU should use the rules in place from the beginning of the season, not go around changing rules because of the TEB cancellation -- now you're saying there's no rule in place to handle this, so they should make one on the spot to count only SP scores in final standings?

Seems the only way to handle this without changing rules would be to hold the event to completion in some capacity, or disqualify the event entirely due to the forced cancellation.

 

[ice coverage]

I missed the NBC coverage of TEB this morning. I was just wondering if they mentioned anything about the GPF selection during the broadcast. Did anyone watch the broadcast? Thanks!!

NBC did not break any news re the GPF qualification, if that's what you're asking.

NBC mentioned the proposal of using SP/SD results. It made clear that it is a proposal, not a decision.

 

[moriel]

the issue with this, aside from getting an extra day of ice time is that, logistically, it makes little sense...

just giving you a few examples :

Let's say, Shoma goes, messes up his LP, loses many points and is no longer in the top 6.. he is out of the competition, yet he has had to fly himself and his team to the GPF at quite an expense... (even if let's say the ISU would be funding this... it's a lot of money for speculative results)...

Let's say that for instance, Rippon and Brown are ranked 5 and 6 before the FP is reskated for others like Shoma and Chan... who have a very good chance to move them down, if not both, at least one of them.... why would Rippon and Brown fly across the ocean just in the random chance that they would hold on to their GPF assignment, knowing that Shoma and Chan may only need to medal to take them out....

For any re-take of the FP... you have to understand that some skaters wouldn't go...I doubt Denis would bother knowing that he has no chance to qualify... so already, one of the seeded skater is off the hook, making Shoma's and Chan's life much easier to place in the top 3....

Not only there are a bunch of logistical and practical issues but it changes the rules and conditions for skaters.... I believe that all need to have a fair and even chance to qualify, changing rules to give extra skates which will not be done in the same conditions is unfair.... it's also unfair for someone like Misha who couldn't attend because his visa didn't come in in time... would he be given a chance to skate then? if it's postponed?

as soon as one messes with rules, it opens a huge can of worms and there are many ways where it can be unfair for others....

As far as I am concerned, the only fair thing is to move on and make the SP count for medals/points. Skaters, when they performed and competed on Friday, did their best and tried hard to place as high as possible and earn as many points as possible.. yes, some do better traditionally in the LP... but it's like Misha's visa.. it ain't happening...

I am sure if you were to ask the athletes, the first thing they would mention is that under the circumstances, it's best the event was cancelled.... I am also convinced that most of them would be fine with the SP results as final results...

Finally, as far as pairs are concerned... well... it's the same for ice dance... it actually happens quite often that in dance the top 3 are apart by only a couple points, like in WC 2014... so what's different there? THey all skated well, performing similar elements... so that's just that...

And well, for me, if they take just the SP scores for this event only, its unfair to the TEB skaters, and to everybody else in the GP. They then should, instead, make the senior GPF an exibition only event this year and donate prize money to charity or whatever like that.
As far as pairs - keep in mind that they had no chance to skate their FS, unlike WC 2014.

 

[jzoole]

The more I read through this thread full of convoluted, complicated and unfair ideas about how to pick the finalist, the more I feel that by far the best solution is to cancel the Golden Spin of Zagreb event as it would have taken place and re-work it as a TEB free-skate make-up event. The venue is already booked. The only change that would need to take place is to allow the TEB participants to take the place of whichever skaters would have competed at The Golden Spin of Zagreb.

 

[el henry]

The more I read through this thread full of convoluted, complicated and unfair ideas about how to pick the finalist, the more I feel that by far the best solution is to cancel the Golden Spin of Zagreb event as it would have taken place and re-work it as a TEB free-skate make-up event. The venue is already booked. The only change that would need to take place is to allow the TEB participants to take the place of whichever skaters would have competed at The Golden Spin of Zagreb.

Welcome!

Although I agree that the only right way to count SP scores, would be if an LP takes place, I would hate to see Golden Spin canceled. Those skaters worked hard for that comp, and some of them I would rather see than the TEB skaters.:yay:

 

[tulosai]

The more I read through this thread full of convoluted, complicated and unfair ideas about how to pick the finalist, the more I feel that by far the best solution is to cancel the Golden Spin of Zagreb event as it would have taken place and re-work it as a TEB free-skate make-up event. The venue is already booked. The only change that would need to take place is to allow the TEB participants to take the place of whichever skaters would have competed at The Golden Spin of Zagreb.

And what about the skaters who were relying on the chance to compete in Zageb to earn worlds minimums?

 

[sabinfire]

Although I agree that the only right way to count SP scores, would be if an LP takes place, I would hate to see Golden Spin canceled. Those skaters worked hard for that comp, and some of them I would rather see than the TEB skaters.:yay:

Is there an entries list for Golden Spin?

 

[silverfoxes]

I don't see how canceling any more competitions is the right way to go. This doesn't need to snowball any further. Let it affect the smallest number of skaters possible, not ruin the season for even more.

 

[tulosai]

Is there an entries list for Golden Spin?

Not yet but we do know which skaters from certain countries are scheduled to be there. Fields/Stevens, Kayne/O'Shea, Cannuscio/McManus, Karen Chen, Angela Wang, and, Adam Rippon, Sean Rabbitt and some male skater last name of Johnson who I either don't know his first name or am blanking on it from the USA for example.

 

[Layback11]

Dear ISU,

Please do something about this before this argument escalates to the point where multiple posters get banned.

Sincerely,

Concerned Citizens

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't think there is any offensive discussion here. I've read great ideas from several posters.

I agree with those who said there should not be any make-up competition or cancelling other events. TEB isn't that important. The ISU needs to come up with a good way to accommodate TEB skaters; I think expanding the field at the GPF is the way to go, but how much is a question. It isn't the end of the world if someone like Liza can't go, but depending on how the placements turn out it will be a pity if 2nd and 3rd would have gotten her there because she is much stronger in the long than those ahead of her except Gracie.

 

[tulosai]

I don't think there is any offensive discussion here. I've read great ideas from several posters.

I completely agree. While people have disagreed often I feel everything has remained extraordinarily civil and devoid of personal attacks.