A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[moriel]

Um...
I like Max too but Shoma won this SP. yes, it's unfortunate that he didn't have the chance to redeem himself, but what's done is done, and he didn't. It's sad, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

Then equally fair is to discard Shoma`s FS from skate america, so he will be 4th. Which makes 15 points at TEB and 9 at SA = 24 points, and then see if he gets to GPF.
Because he skated a weaker SP in Skate America =)

 

[moriel]

Shoma won the short program. This is not in dispute. What IS in dispute is the fact that some people are now trying to claim that Shoma won the event, by virtue of winning the SP. And that is very wrong.

Shoma had the opportunity to come back at Max at Skate America, and didn't we hear some ridiculously stupid bellyaching when the virtue of his short program saw him fall short? And as I said then: there are TWO programs. Max was at a disadvantage of his own making after the SP - but now he is at a worse one through no fault of his own, and yet people want to penalise him for it.

I still wonder if there would be so many people pushing for the SP results to be used if this had been Skate Canada...

+1

And well, actually, would be fair to take maybe just the small medals from SP into account this year?
I mean, everybody will skate their SPs, including TEB folks, so shall be fair for everybody.

Ofc, the event medals and prize money would be still awarded based on both programs =D

 

[Mathman]

What has been murkier is whether anyone has (yet) "won" TEB this year…

I was quoting your own words -- "Shoma deserves 15 points because he won TEB" -- because I do think it is premature…

I think I was unclear as to what was the "IF" part and what was the "THEN" part in my post (#432). What I meant to say is that IF we go with the plan (which I think is a logical solution) of taking

the SP as determining the ordinal placements for TEB.

THEN

Shoma deserves 15 points because he won TEB.

Whether the ISU decides to go this route has not been announced yet.

According to this article (on the reaction of Canada's team), a decision should be imminent.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/sports...ncellation-leaves-skaters-in-qualifying-limbo

 

[Pamigena]

And well, actually, would be fair to take maybe just the small medals from SP into account this year?
I mean, everybody will skate their SPs, including TEB folks, so shall be fair for everybody.

Because misery loves company or what? The TEB skaters got screwed so now everyone else has to suffer with them? I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?

 

[Mathman]

Then equally fair is to discard Shoma`s FS from skate america, so he will be 4th.

IMHO it is not fair to disregard any skating that actually took place (reality). It is unfair to base GP FInal spots on speculation about what might have been (fantasy). (JMO, of course. )

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What I am opposed to is a solution that confuses fact with fantasy. A solution needs to be based on what actually happened, rather than on what we wish might happen or what we think is likely to happen in some parallel universe.

I still don't see how expanding the GPF field hurts anyone. What happened is that we have an event that is 1/3 finished and nothing in the rulebook deals with this situation.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Given that a Russian skater, a Canadian skater, and a US skater are hurt by using only the SP results, I'm sure a lot of lobbying is going to expand the field to include these (deserving IMO) athletes.

 

[lauravvv]

Security officials announce details of planned terrorists attack in Moscow. I won't be surprised if that event is cancelled too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-...terrorist-plot-against-moscow-public-transit/

That is information from a month ago. Unfortunately, terrorist attacks can happen in the "important" (and even less important) cities of the world anytime. Now there is information about planned terrorist attacks in Washington. No country and no place is completely safe.

 

[Eddie Lee]

By THEM do you mean all participants of TEB or those with a realistic shot at GPF? If the latter it is not fair to the rest. If not we are looking at the 'reconstruction' of TEB elsewhere. We are talking about appr 200 people to be brought together again. Who is to meet the cost of it? ISU- i doubt it. Would the skaters willing to fork out from the strained budgets the cost of an extra unplanned event (flights, accommodation, upkeep of themselves + their coaching teams)? If you think about time & finance constraints this project has a zero chance of ever getting off the ground.
My opinion to use sp results and move on. To reach any fairness is impossibility. At least in this case the selection will be on the basis of actual results of the skaters in the competition in question. Those who lose have only themselves to blame. Frankly Liza & Patrick already were propped by judges very generously so they should not be complaining and it is the second event in the row they bomb their sp.

Absolutely !! 100 percent. TEB is completed after the SP/SD-- because it was necessarily cancelled. IT CANNOT BE RESURRECTED! Fortunately every participant in all areas completed the first phase of the TEB competition. So it is practical--and fair--for all participants to accept the results as completed and MOVE ON! PLEASE.....LET'S HAVE NO FAVORITISM BASED ON WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN. LEAVE POLITICAL MANIPULATION OUT OF THE PICTURE.

And think ahead! This is early in the season. There is still Europeans, 4 Continents, Nationals, and World Championships to prove a skater's mettle. Figure skaters are among the strongest, most disciplined, most fearless of all competitive sports participants. (And perhaps their training is the most costly!) My best wishes to all of them.

..........From a fan that stays up many nights watching and rewatching their fantastic feats all over the world!!! God bless and keep you safe.

 

[mrrice]

I still don't see how expanding the GPF field hurts anyone. What happened is that we have an event that is 1/3 finished and nothing in the rulebook deals with this situation.

Exactly! It wouldn't bother me if they took the top 10. Also, I don't see it as Fantasy in any way to think that Patrick and Max could have delivered solid multi quad Long Programs and finished 1 and 2 at this event.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Exactly! It wouldn't bother me if they took the top 10. Also, I don't see it as Fantasy in any way to think that Patrick and Max could have delivered solid multi quad Long Programs and finished 1 and 2 at this event.

Agreed. At the end of the day, this situation calls for giving the skaters the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mathman]

I still don't see how expanding the GPF field hurts anyone. What happened is that we have an event that is 1/3 finished and nothing in the rulebook deals with this situation.

I have no objection to such a plan if the ISU can work out the details. How would the field be expanded? What would be the rule for inclusion? Top 6 plus Chan and Aaron? Top six plus Chan, forget Aaron? Top 6 plus Chan, Aaron and another guy?

I don't see it as Fantasy in any way to think that Patrick and Max could have delivered solid multi quad Long Programs and finished 1 and 2 at this event.

You don't? Could have?

 

[psycho]

Why are people putting Patrick Chan and Max Aaron in the same category here? They are in two different stratospheres. Chan absolutely had a chance to medal at TEB had he skated in the FS. But Aaron? LOL This season alone he managed to lose the FS to Uno, Balde, and Menshov. The only way he would have been finishing 2nd at TEB is if Uno, Kovtun and Murakami had gotten food poisoning and withdrew. He had a chance to qualify for the GPF after his lucky win at Skate America. But he blew it by digging himself a 20 point hole in a much more competitive field where he could not afford to make any mistakes. He robbed himself of that chance, and putting him into the GPF as a wildcard would be a complete and undeserved gift.

Just use the SP placements and let the chips fall as they will. Chan will likely make it in anyway. We'll lose Liza, and that is unfortunate, but such is life.

And nothing amuses me more that people splitting hairs on what is fair and unfair in freaking figure skating. It's figure skating. It's 80% unfair. From politics, to power feds, to judging blocks, to inconsistent edge calls and bs PCSs, and a myriad of other issues, using SP placements to decide the points for GPF(in such extenuating circumstances), thus putting some of the political favourites at a disadvantage, is one of the least unfair things that happened in skating in a while.

 

[mrrice]

I have no objection to such a plan if the ISU can work out the details. How would the field be expanded? What would be the rule for inclusion? Top 6 plus Chan and Aaron? Top six plus Chan, forget Aaron? Top 6 plus Chan, Aaron and another guy?

You don't? Could have?

OMG Mathman, I think you're making fun of me but, I still love it when you make comments like these.

 

[Fetinia]

Can GPF placement be determined not by total, but average of points and scores between 2 events, except those skaters who participated in TEB for whom the placement would be baed on one event? It won't hurt non-TEB skaters: their average will be total/2 for everyone, for example 15 + 13/2 = 14 or 11 + 11/2 = 11, and for TEB-participants it would be points earned on one event only, for example for Patrick and Max it would be 15, for Gracie and Liza it would be 13. Basically, ignore TEB incomplete results and calculate placement as (total points earned)/(no. of completed events).

 

[mrrice]

Why are people putting Patrick Chan and Max Aaron in the same category here? They are in two different stratospheres. Chan absolutely had a chance to medal at TEB had he skated in the FS. But Aaron? LOL This season alone he managed to lose the FS to Uno, Balde, and Menshov. The only way he would have been finishing 2nd at TEB is if Uno, Kovtun and Murakami had gotten food poisoning and withdrew. He had a chance to qualify for the GPF after his lucky win at Skate America. But he blew it by digging himself a 20 point hole in a much more competitive field where he could not afford to make any mistakes. He robbed himself of that chance, and putting him into the GPF as a wildcard would be a complete and undeserved gift.

Just use the SP placements and let the chips fall as they will. Chan will likely make it in anyway. We'll lose Liza, and that is unfortunate, but such is life.

And nothing amuses me more that people splitting hairs on what is fair and unfair in freaking figure skating. It's figure skating. It's 80% unfair. From politics, to power feds, to judging blocks, to inconsisted edge calls and BS PCSs, and a myriad of other issues, using SP placements to decide the points for GPF(in such extenuating circumstances), thus putting some of the political favourites at a disadvantage, is one of the least unfair things that happened in skating in a while.

Oh Psycho............What a fitting name for such a bad comment. I'm sorry to rude but, like it or not. Max Arron is the Champion of Skate America and as we've seen. He IS capable of landing multiple quads in his LP. 10 competitors in the GPF is not too many and I think it's more than fair that Patrick and Max as Champions of their previous event be given an opportunity to make the final.

Also, I don't think you're giving enough weight to the impact of what happened in Paris. Patrick and Max didn't forget their skates or leave their costumes at the Hotel. Paris was attacked and they, along with every skater at the event deserve the opportunity to make up the points for a Full Event.

I'll add one last thing. It won't crush me if they BOTH miss the GPF. However, I will absolutely have an * next to the name of whoever wins in their absence.

 

[Amei]

What about changing the rules for the GPF for this year only (due to the unusual circumstances) that if you were Top 3 at any GP event, including the shortened TEB, you are in the GPF.. I think this is the way to avoid a skater getting penalized for what happened at TEB.

 

[bekalc]

I think use TEB results for tallys and prize money. Don't declare a TEB winner though (no won that). However change it so top 6 go and then anyone who mathematically could have made it in get to go to GPF. (or they could do anyone with a GP medal.)

I really think expanding the GPF field even with the tight schedule already is the best scenario. They could though take the top six after the short.

 

[Skater Boy]

Absolutely !! 100 percent. TEB is completed after the SP/SD-- because it was necessarily cancelled. IT CANNOT BE RESURRECTED! Fortunately every participant in all areas completed the first phase of the TEB competition. So it is practical--and fair--for all participants to accept the results as completed and MOVE ON! PLEASE.....LET'S HAVE NO FAVORITISM BASED ON WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN. LEAVE POLITICAL MANIPULATION OUT OF THE PICTURE.

And think ahead! This is early in the season. There is still Europeans, 4 Continents, Nationals, and World Championships to prove a skater's mettle. Figure skaters are among the strongest, most disciplined, most fearless of all competitive sports participants. (And perhaps their training is the most costly!) My best wishes to all of them.

..........From a fan that stays up many nights watching and rewatching their fantastic feats all over the world!!! God bless and keep you safe.

I am not sure this is fair. 1. Unless it was clear in the rules that if the sp/sd was completed and the competition is forced to end early the leader wins then it is n't fair. It needed to be in the rules. Why? Well who says the sp or sd had to be first. What if someone strategically saved themselves for the lp. It should be scrapped all together. I agree you can't predict the lp but these results should be clearly scrapped = they have little value.

 

[mrrice]

I am not sure this is fair. 1. Unless it was clear in the rules that if the sp/sd was completed and the competition is forced to end early the leader wins then it is n't fair. It needed to be in the rules. Why? Well who says the sp or sd had to be first. What if someone strategically saved themselves for the lp. It should be scrapped all together. I agree you can't predict the lp but these results should be clearly scrapped = they have little value.

100% Correct!! It wouldn't surprise me in the least that both Patrick and Max were strategically saving themselves to "Battle it out" in the LP. These scores......Scrap Em!! A GPF without 2 GP Gold Medalists makes no sense.