A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[4everchan]

Life is unfair. Think about those who lost theirs on Friday. I love fs. But yeah. Having perspective is great in such events. I even don't care if my boy chan doesn't qualify.

That's because both solutions are unfair

 

[ice coverage]

I don't think anyone is arguing that those skaters would've skated as well in the LP as they did in the SP.

The argument is instead that, due to exceptional circumstances, the SP was the only portion of the competition to be held. Thus, it is the only thing we have to go off of in determining placements at this particular event. It CAN be argued that no one at TEB earned GP points due to not doing an LP there, but do we punish all TEB skaters because of the exceptional circumstances? Or accept the fact that part of the competition was skated and go with those results because there's nothing else to be done?

That said, I'm not opposed to solutions that will take the SPs into account while also offering equal opportunities to TEB skaters who MAY have risen in the LP, but those opportunities should cover ALL of the skaters at TEB, not just the favorites.

MM seemed to be making a case against additional opportunities:

... How can they possibly give consideration to what someone couda-wouda-shouda done, but didna? ...

I was pointing out the fallacy (IMO) of MM's premise as to why additional opportunities are not warranted.

The ISU already will be taking coulda/woulda/shoulda into consideration if it decides to use the TEB SP results to award GP ranking points.

So why would reliance on coulda/woulda/shoulda be acceptable to MM regarding usage of SP results, but not regarding any offers of additional opportunities?

 

[ice coverage]

... So I am uncomfortable that these skaters might be given the benefit of the doubt that they would have pulled up in the FS, or that skaters above them would have not done strong enough free programs. ... We have no idea what would have happened & I don't want to see skaters in Barcelona who only got there thanks to some kind assumptions.

But again: "Kind assumptions" would be exactly how Uno (and possibly Kovtun and Murakami) would qualify for the GPF -- if the SP results are used to award full ranking points.
The kind assumptions obviously being that Uno et al. still would have had the top placements after the free skates.

Given that "benefit of the doubt" makes you uncomfortable, you should be equally uncomfortable that Uno et al. would be given the benefit of the doubt re their FS results.

 

[sabinfire]

I can't wait to hear if some solution is announced that will still allow Chan, Aaron or Tuktamysheva to qualify for the finals. Heads will explode around here!

 

[fallingsk8er]

I say let each skater decide.
Since there will not be a long program, the skater can do one of the following:

1. Use the short program placement for TEB
or
2. Throw out the TEB placement and use the placement from a previous or upcoming grand prix event instead.

 

[moriel]

I can't wait to hear if some solution is announced that will still allow Chan, Aaron or Tuktamysheva to qualify for the finals. Heads will explode around here!

Yup, waiting for fan wars that will last till the end of season.
Specially if lets say Chan and Tukt get into GPF and then WIN GPF. Srsly see threads of 100+ pages about cheating, favouritism, unfair judging, etc etc etc

I predict GS popcorn sales will skyrocket.

 

[Icey]

Hmm, I wonder if they can re-schedule the FP of TEB to the week of 3-5 December, at the same venue. It would be an amazing occasion to show everyone that French people are not scared, and I think that the athletes will be pleased to show their support for France by coming back and skate there.

The French people are scared and scarred and, justifiably so: look how firecrackers going off sent all those at the memorial sites scurrying in fear. It will take some time for people to feel significantly safe again, especially considering the kinds of venues that were attacked.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Daleman's case - she was 5th in her other GP - 7 points. If she won TEB, she would have 22 points. How likely is that? But still, benefit of doubt, is a score of 22 enough to get into GPF? If yes, she deserves a chance, maybe she would have given the skate of her life in TEB and the other strong contenders for gold would have had terrible meltdowns.

This situation is quite different than Patrick's, Max's, or Liza's. Those three did achieve a high result already this season. They are being penalized for not having a full opportunity to match their previous high placement.

 

[andromache]

But again: "Kind assumptions" would be exactly how Uno (and possibly Kovtun and Murakami) would qualify for the GPF -- if the SP results are used to award full ranking points.
The kind assumptions obviously being that Uno et al. still would have had the top placements after the free skates.

Given that "benefit of the doubt" makes you uncomfortable, you should be equally uncomfortable that Uno et al. would be given the benefit of the doubt re their FS results.

Again, the SP result is not an assumption of how the LP might've gone. The SP result is a fact based on performances that happened. Due to terrible things in France, the event consisted only of a short program in each discipline, and we have results of that SP. This happens to be the circumstances of this particular event.

'm willing to give the TEB skaters who did not perform well in the SP some sort of benefit of the doubt, but not one that strips away the SP accomplishment of the skaters who did perform well or is not applied to all of the skaters equally.

 

[moriel]

This situation is quite different than Patrick's, Max's, or Liza's. Those three did achieve a high result already this season. They are being penalized for not having a full opportunity to match their previous high placement.

I understand your point

Just giving examples of actual benefit of doubt and cases when its less clear. While the 3 listed are obviously "deserving" because they had real chances for GPF, one would need to draw a line - what makes a skater deserving actually. I agree those 3 are obviously deserving - but we must look at everybody, not just them.
Mostly to avoid people saying that they just let each fed pick their own fav and randomly add it to GPF.

 

[Eclair]

Life is unfair. Think about those who lost theirs on Friday. I love fs. But yeah. Having perspective is great in such events. I even don't care if my boy chan doesn't qualify.

Of course a figure skating competion is nothing compared to the death of those people. A figure skating competition becomes insignifant when compared to such a tragedy!
But still there're people who care about who goes to GPF - such as the skateres themselves (who trained long and hard) and all the other skaters who had to skate two good programms to earn their spot.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This situation is quite different than Patrick's, Max's, or Liza's. Those three did achieve a high result already this season. They are being penalized for not having a full opportunity to match their previous high placement.

They are all equally missing the opportunity to perform their FS. Shouldn't matter how you did earlier in the season. The problem is the judges already think this way when scoring and this just is going to reinforce the notion that those who are in the hunt should receive special consideration.

 

[Sorrento]

What about all those deserving skaters who are not named Chan, Aaron or Tuktamysheva?

Earn the reputation to be counted same as those mentioned. There is no other way.

 

[ice coverage]

Again, the SP result is not an assumption of how the LP might've gone. The SP result is a fact based on performances that happened. Due to terrible things in France, the event consisted only of a short program in each discipline, and we have results of that SP. This happens to be the circumstances of this particular event. ...

If the SP results are accepted as the full-fledged TEB results and are the basis for full GP ranking points, using the SP results ABSOLUTELY would be an assumption of how the free skates would have gone.

As I said in a previous post:
Winning the SP at Skate America was not enough for Max to earn 15 ranking points. His FS result also was necessary for the 15 points.
Winning the SP at Cup of China was not enough for Javi to earn 15 ranking points. His FS result also was necessary for the 15 points.

If the TEB SP results are accepted as full-fledged results:
Winning the SP alone at TEB will be enough for Shoma to earn 15 ranking points.

Shoma would not deserve the 15 ranking points, unless it is ASSUMED that his FS result would have kept him in first place.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Earn the reputation to be counted same as those mentioned. There is no other way.

:disagree:
Closest thing to a dislike button I could find.

 

[moriel]

They are all equally missing the opportunity. Shouldn't matter how you did earlier in the season. The problem is the judges already think this way when scoring and this just is going to reinforce the notion that those who are in the hunt should receive special consideration.

Well, it should matter how the person did over the season, not just earlier. After all, not everybody goes to GPF, and a person who came in 8th in one of their two GPs, for example, would never go to GPF no matter how well the other skate was. For example, if Ashley comes last at NHK, it doesnt matter she won a gold before, she will be out of final.

So a benefit of doubt would be maybe selecting 6 finalists among skaters who didnt skate in TEB, and taking the lowest points as a "deserving" criteria. Then, suppose all TEB skaters won gold and add whoever hit that minimum or more - i dunno, just random ideas.

 

[Sorrento]

:disagree:
Closest thing to a dislike button I could find.

And that is an opinion, only.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am starting to wonder if adjusted points might be the way to go.

As Golden pointed out winning the SP is not enough to earn 15 points in prior comps, so it should not be here.

So maybe an adjusted scale. Maybe 75% value could work, though it is a bit generous. That would keep Gracie and Shoma in strong contention for the final as well as keep V/T, H/D and Kovtun in contention based on their future performance. Tut and Chan would likely be out, but...well I think the odds of Shoma and Gracie getting a bronze or better is higher than the odds of Tut and Chan getting Bronze or better. I still think Chan and/or Tut had a very strong possibility of pulling up, but i think the others had a higher chance of not crashing to 4th.

I still think more of a "skate a free at any of the upcoming official events or provide your own telecompetition venue and that will be added to TEB" would be better, but if they do go with just the SP, i do think some adjustments might be in order. Put another way. I think the skater who skates 4 programs should win a tie breaker over someone who skated 3 programs regardless of it being their fault or not. There should be some consideration for the skaters that do compete full compositions. So maybe just reducing the points by one (i.e. 14 for gold, 12 for silver, etc) could be an option. That would acknowledge that they did do less skating, but also is such a small amount that it hopefully would not seem punitive.

 

[moriel]

I am starting to wonder if adjusted points might be the way to go.

As Golden pointed out winning the SP is not enough to earn 15 points in prior comps, so it should not be here.

So maybe an adjusted scale. Maybe 75% value could work, though it is a bit generous. That would keep Gracie and Shoma in strong contention for the final as well as keep V/T, H/D and Kovtun in contention based on their future performance. Tut and Chan would likely be out, but...well I think the odds of Shoma and Gracie getting a bronze or better is higher than the odds of Tut and Chan getting Bronze or better. I still think Chan and/or Tut had a very strong possibility of pulling up, but i think the others had a higher chance of not crashing to 4th.

I still think more of a "skate a free at any of the upcoming official events or provide your own telecompetition venue and that will be added to TEB" would be better, but if they do go with just the SP, i do think some adjustments might be in order. Put another way. I think the skater who skates 4 programs should win a tie breaker over someone who skated 3 programs regardless of it being their fault or not. There should be some consideration for the skaters that do compete full compositions. So maybe just reducing the points by one (i.e. 14 for gold, 12 for silver, etc) could be an option. That would acknowledge that they did do less skating, but also is such a small amount that it hopefully would not seem punitive.

Well, keep in mind there are 3 medals... If you just award one medal, yeah, Gracie's chances are higher than Tukt's. But then there are 3. Gracie gets gold for example. Can Tukt get silver or bronze? Absolutely. With a silver, she has 2 silver medals and decent GPF chances.
SP is just 1/3rd of the total score - so it should be given this value =)

As a sidenote, you cannot take future performances for everybody - many skaters just will not skate until GPF - for example, folks that had their first GP already. Will Tukt be given a 3rd GP just so she can skate before GPF in an international comp? That would be epically unfair to everybody.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

ISU trumps French government's official decision and creates imaginary scores for a free skate that was cancelled for a selected few skaters who underperformed in the SP and deems those skaters eligible to be given a chance to make it to the GPF. Yeah...that sounds about right and I don't think anyone would be surprised.