A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[sowcow]

To me, that is the whole thing in a nutshell.

Completely agree!!

Hopefully the ISU remembers to K.I.S.S. [keep it simple stupid]

The simplest solution:

• Medals and points awarded as per short program results.
• At the end of the 6 Grand Prix events, the top-6 in each discipline advance as usual.
• In the case where there is a tie for 6th place (based on total points) then the normal tie-breaking procedures are used; EXCEPT where a 'TEB' skater is involved.
  • In that case, the 'TEB' skater who tied for 6th place is accepted as the 7th entrant in the GPF.
• If there is a 3-way (or more) tie for 6th, then the regular tie-breaking procedures are used break any tie between the 'non-TEB' 6th place skaters; and similarly the regular tie-breaking rules** are used to break any tie between the 'TEB' 6th place skaters.
  • In this case, still only 1 additional skater is accepted as the "7th" entrant in the GPF.

** unless a particular tie-breaking rule is impossible to use for some reason, then it is skipped for the next rule. (As example, a tie-breaking rule such as: "Compare the results of the long program for each skater's 2nd highest scoring Grand Prix event". Obviously, the 'TEB' skaters will NOT have a "2nd" long program score to compare against one another).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thank you Sowcow. I completely agree. KISS!!!!!
http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Nailed-It.gif

 

[blue dog]

I liked the suggestion to invite all GP medalists to GPF the best. Including the ones who have a small SP medal from TEB. That would mean about a double count of competitors than the usual six, but there are often 12 entries in a category at the individual GP events anyway, so a GPF exception just for this once would be nice. It would cost no little amount of money, and mess up the current GPF schedule, but it appears more feasible to me than hosting a special stand-alone event just for the LPs. And for me, 12 medalists would make for a more exciting competition than just the usual top 6.

But I don't think the ISU will go for this, as it would mean too much paperwork, organization, and money. I'm resigned to hearing tomorrow that the SP scores will be the ones taken into consideration, and to waving bye to Liza or Max in the final. I'm sad about that, but for me that's the other best, and relatively fair, option.
And I'm glad all the skaters are safe. I feel deeply sorry for all those people who weren't, two days and two weeks ago.

This was the original intent of the GP way back in 1995! They wanted to make it a "Champions Series" (the original name), where the medalists were invited to a final. The format has changed so much, that it has happened where a champion of one event did not make it (Laetitia Hubert stands out; she won Lalique, but finished last in her other GP).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Laetitia Hubert stands out; she won Lalique, but finished last in her other GP.

Only Laetitia could achieve such an incredible feat. At Worlds she usually almost medaled or almost came in last. In 9 trips, she had four top 6 finishes and three outside the top 20. :thumbsup:

 

[samson]

Wow well if they still haven't come to a decision that seems to indicate to me they're trying to come up with an alternative to just using the sp scores. If that article Lunna posted is any indication then that could be very good news for several skaters. I did my best to break down the men is they would stand if they are in fact awarded points based off the short program standings. They would be:

1. Shoma 28 points
2. Patrick 22 points
3. Dai 22 points (Patrick wins the tie breaker)
4. Han Y 20 points
5. Max 19 points
6. Javi 15 points
7. Boyang 13 points
8. Yuzu 13 points
9. Maxim 13 points
10.Jason 11 points

These are the men that I see still having a legitimate shot at the final. Of these men Jason, Max, Daisuke and Han Yan probably have the lowest shot. Javi doesn't have much competition in Russia and top three finish would guarantee his spot. If the podium in Japan is Boyang, Yuzu and Maxim then they are also in the final. If it's six skaters then we'd be looking at Shoma, Patrick, Javi, Yuzu, Boyang and Maxim.

Expanding it to 8 would definitely benefit Daisuke, and keep Jason and Han Yan in the mix. I think Max is likely out of the picture but Jason could sneak in there if he could place second or higher at NHK OR if they expand to 8 and he medals at NHK or places 4th and beats Han Yan in a tie breaker.

Of course there are skaters like Mura and Elladj who can't make the final but could certainly be spoilers if they bring it and some of the other men struggle at NHK.

Either way it looks like unless they give the TEB skaters 0 points, Patrick has likely still made it but a las Max could have really benefitted from a comeback skate.

Edited to add: I might have time to look at the other disciplines too. Also just wanted to say that if they for some reason award no points to the TEB skaters then Rostelecom would become an all out battle for Adam, Nam, and Voronov to earn enough points and sneak into the final.

 

[sowcow]

Completely agree!!

Hopefully the ISU remembers to K.I.S.S. [keep it simple stupid]

The simplest solution:

• Medals and points awarded as per short program results.
• At the end of the 6 Grand Prix events, the top-6 in each discipline advance as usual.
• In the case where there is a tie for 6th place (based on total points) then the normal tie-breaking procedures are used; EXCEPT where a 'TEB' skater is involved.
  • In that case, the 'TEB' skater who tied for 6th place is accepted as the 7th entrant in the GPF.
• If there is a 3-way (or more) tie for 6th, then the regular tie-breaking procedures are used break any tie between the 'non-TEB' 6th place skaters; and similarly the regular tie-breaking rules** are used to break any tie between the 'TEB' 6th place skaters.
  • In this case, still only 1 additional skater is accepted as the "7th" entrant in the GPF.

** unless a particular tie-breaking rule is impossible to use for some reason, then it is skipped for the next rule. (As example, a tie-breaking rule such as: "Compare the results of the long program for each skater's 2nd highest scoring Grand Prix event". Obviously, the 'TEB' skaters will NOT have a "2nd" long program score to compare against one another).

Some further thoughts...

The Benefits of this method:

• Simplest method.
• NO "new" rules need be created or voted on.
• It GUARANTEES that NO SKATER will be unfairly "pushed out" from competing at the GPF.
• Regardless of whether a skater is in the 'non-TEB' or 'TEB' group, if they fail to make the top-6, in NO WAY can any fault be blamed on the cancellation of the TEB event!
  • In fact, this method affords ALL SKATERS an equally (but very, very) small increase in their chances (probability) to make the GPF!!
• This method is least likely to cause an increase in the number of skaters competing at the GPF (i.e. the likelihood of a 7th skater/team appearing in any of the 4 disciplines is highly unlikely).
  • This conclusion is reached by simply analyzing the historically LOW number of 6th place ties at the completion of the past 5-6 Grand Prix event seasons).
• In the UNLIKELY event of a tie for 6th, the tie-breaking rules are applied separately for 'non-TEB' versus 'TEB' skaters.
  • So, if there is a tie for 6th place between 2 or more 'non-TEB' or skaters, then it is 'business as usual' (and only 1 will eventually proceed to skate at the GPF).
  • Similarly, if the tie for 6th place is between 2 or more 'TEB' skaters, then it is also 'business as usual' (as the normal tie-breaking rules will be used to determine the 1 'TEB' skater who will skate at the GPF).
  • The ONLY time a 7th entrant is added to a GPF is if 1 or more of the skaters who tied for 6th place is from the 'TEB' group AND 1 or more of the skaters who tied for 6th place is from the 'non-TEB' group.
• This method ensures that there is NO instance where a 'non-TEB' skater is "pushed out" of the GPF by a 'TEB' skater (or visa-versa) because of an arbitrary decision made by the ISU.
  • This is because in the UNLIKELY case of a 6th place tie involving a 'non-TEB' skater AND a 'TEB' skater, the tie-breaking rules are NOT applied to these 2 skaters (e.g. the 'non-TEB' skaters are NOT compared to the 'TEB' skaters).
  • Rather, the best 6th place 'non-TEB' skater [decided by applying the tie-breaking rules if more than 1 'non-TEB' was tied for 6th] and the best 6th place 'TEB' skater [decided by applying the tie-breaking rules if more than 1 'TEB' was tied for 6th] both will compete at the GPF.

 

[Amei]

I really wish they could have continued behind closed doors. :/

The conspiracy theory fans would have a field day with closed door skates deciding who won a competition. :rofl2:

I wonder, can't they just reschedule all the LP? Seems the only fair way. :/

Not saying its a bad idea but here's 1 negative that I can come up with:
- TEB skaters have an unfair advantage from skaters that competed at other GP events because they have a longer time to recover from the SP and prep for the FS

 

[ice coverage]

.... If that article Lunna posted is any indication ...

Seems impossible to know whether the article really is any good indication of what the ISU will decide.

Kogan doesn't name any specific other countries that support the Russian proposal.

 

[moriel]

This was the original intent of the GP way back in 1995! They wanted to make it a "Champions Series" (the original name), where the medalists were invited to a final. The format has changed so much, that it has happened where a champion of one event did not make it (Laetitia Hubert stands out; she won Lalique, but finished last in her other GP).

That would probably make something like this for GPF:

12-13 men
14-15 ladies
12 pairs
10 dance

Which is actually quite a lot of people.

 

[Icey]

Hold a lottery drawing

 

[Lunna]

Seems impossible to know whether the article really is any good indication of what the ISU will decide.

Thats for sure. There was a press-conference today due to Cup of Russia so basically all comments are from there and we didn't hear anything from other federations.

 

[el henry]

sorry, but if you *really* wanted KISS...

Don't count the SP. Just don't count it. This is the simplest of the simple solutions. No need for further discussion

Except about "fair"

 

[sowcow]

sorry, but if you *really* wanted KISS...

Don't count the SP. Just don't count it. This is the simplest of the simple solutions. No need for further discussion

Except about "fair"

That's hardly a "simple" solution...

• First,, you'd need to have a vote by ISU members to agree to "not count" the SP. HA ... good luck on that!
• Then you'd need to figure out what to do with all those TEB skaters who will now only have points from just 1 other Grand Prix event. Just imagine all the arguing about how to deal with that...

No need to go any further exploring your suggestion... I daresay it is anything but "simple" in reality!! :hpull:

 

[Pamigena]

Hopefully the ISU remembers to K.I.S.S. [keep it simple stupid]

They could "keep it simple, stupid" or "keep it simply stupid" :sarcasm: we'll see

 

[4everchan]

LOL i saw my typo and fell on the floor LOL

Sorry but it just made me burst into laughter on a train

 

[Amei]

To be fair to the ISU:

No doubt it already has lost significant $$$ because of the cancellation of TEB. For example:

It probably has to return some of the money that it received for broadcast/streaming rights.

Ticketholders are getting refunds.​

Any extra costs involved in handling the response to the cancellation of TEB will be a double-whammy.

Money is king for anyone and everyone on the planet. The ISU cannot be blamed for that reality.

Any chance that the French govt. reimburses the ISU? Seems to me they should be able to recoup some of the costs seeing as how they forced the event to be cancelled

 

[shyne]

Any chance that the French govt. reimburses the ISU? Seems to me they should be able to recoup some of the costs seeing as how they forced the event to be cancelled

Not a chance

 

[ice coverage]

Any chance that the French govt. reimburses the ISU? Seems to me they should be able to recoup some of the costs seeing as how they forced the event to be cancelled

Just my guess (and I am not French):

Because the cause was a national state of emergency, I doubt that the French gov't is obligated to reimburse the ISU or any similar entities.

In the U.S. (where I live), I bet that the law that allows declaration of a state of emergency also absolves the gov't from reimbursing anyone for cancelled events.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Just my guess (and I am not French):

Because the cause was a national state of emergency, I doubt that the French gov't is obligated to reimburse the ISU or any similar entities.

In the U.S. (where I live), I bet that the law that allows declaration of a state of emergency also absolves the gov't from reimbursing anyone for cancelled events.

I suspect in the US they would be able to at least claim it as a loss on taxes. I see lines on taxes all the time about natural disasters.

 

[ice coverage]

I suspect in the US they would be able to at least claim it as a loss on taxes. I see lines on taxes all the time about natural disasters.

I would note that an act of terrorism -- not a natural disaster -- was the reason for the state of emergency in France.

But your comment about claiming a business loss for U.S. tax purposes does sound plausible.