A fascination with clean

[Linny]

What is this fascination with clean programs? Maybe someone can explain it to me. There was even a question about clean programs in one of the "Push Dick's Button" segments.

My preference is for a balance - I love seeing athletes pushing the limits, taking chances, going to difficult jumps and jump sequences, and maybe having the risk pay off... or maybe not.

At the same time, I also love seeing perfect basic skating skills, cross overs that are to die for, soft, silent "Yuka" feet, stretched limbs, things like that. This stuff brings a balance to a program that may be otherwise flawed by a bobble or two on the big tickets items.

So, someone who longs for "clean" = wanna explain it to me?

Linny

 

[Mathman]

I think it's sort of like if a person fell off his horse in an equestrian event. The mistake dominates the program and takes away from all the good things he did.

Plus, when you hit all your elements the mood that you are trying to create has a chance to build from beginning to end, giving the program as a whole an integrity that it doesn't have when it is just a succession of elements, some landed, some not.

Many times we see a performance that is going along fine, then boom, a bad stumble and it just deflates both the skater and the audience. It is rare that a skater can truly recover and give it his all the rest of the way.

 

[antmanb]

What is this fascination with clean programs? Maybe someone can explain it to me. There was even a question about clean programs in one of the "Push Dick's Button" segments.

My preference is for a balance - I love seeing athletes pushing the limits, taking chances, going to difficult jumps and jump sequences, and maybe having the risk pay off... or maybe not.

At the same time, I also love seeing perfect basic skating skills, cross overs that are to die for, soft, silent "Yuka" feet, stretched limbs, things like that. This stuff brings a balance to a program that may be otherwise flawed by a bobble or two on the big tickets items.

So, someone who longs for "clean" = wanna explain it to me?

Linny

I've got a funny two standards for "clean". ONe is from the perspective of the the performance and the other is technically clean.

Technically clean means error free in the technical elements a two foot or step out of a jump, or a fall. A wildly unctonrolled spin, a trip or stumble in the footwark or a wobbly uncontrolled spiral sequence. All of these things matter and count towards the mark for the elements. A big error (like a fall) will always dirupt the program, whether its a fall on an attempted quadruple salchow or if the skater caught an edge doing a bracket in the step sequence. If there are a few minor erros in the program - a handful of -1 GOE type things then it doesn't really matter to me.

The performance clean for me is generally all about the skater really trying to do the program and doing nothing to detract from that performance. This is nearly always greatly marred by a fall. A two-footed landing of a jump, or a turn out, even a popped jump to me doesn't detract from the performance if the skater blocks it out of their mind and continues to sell the program.

Personally i prefer both technically and performance-y (!) clean programs. A clean performance usually wins in my mind over a non clean performance but that might change if you look at the technical content. A beuaitufl lyrical performance showing excellent basic skating skills, control and speed with onyl double jumps up to a double axel may be a thing of beauty to watch but i don't think it should beat a program by an equally competant basic skills skater who landed three triple jump but fell on two. If a skater with sloppy basics, average control but slow across the ice squeaked out three triple and fell on three, i'd be very tempted to give the win to the double jumps program.

Ant (who doesn't actually think he answered the question!)

 

[Tinymavy15]

Clean programs are great to see, and you know that it is what the skater has been striving for. However, I would much rather see a program with grater techinal difficulty and better techinque win over a "clean" program that stayed "safe" and did not have a specail quality. I feel that Mao really deserved that worlds title after the freeskate... it was yards better tha miki's, i was really surprised about thet judges descion, but i guess mao was just too far behind after the short. In my opnion, if the skater really tries somthing hard and is pushing the envolpe with theier perfomance... cut them a little slack fordoubel foots and hard landings.

 

[Mathman]

Clean programs are great to see, and you know that it is what the skater has been striving for. However, I would much rather see a program with grater techinal difficulty and better techinque win over a "clean" program that stayed "safe" and did not have a specail quality. I feel that Mao really deserved that worlds title after the freeskate... it was yards better tha miki's, i was really surprised about thet judges descion, but i guess mao was just too far behind after the short. In my opnion, if the skater really tries somthing hard and is pushing the envolpe with theier perfomance... cut them a little slack fordoubel foots and hard landings.

That post rocks.

 

[flying camel]

I think a lot of us have been spoiled by the clean performances of Michelle, Tara, Sarah. So, that is something we expect to see. Yea, I love a clean performance but I really prefer Sasha's style of skating. She took everything she did well to the max. People complained about her technique, but her jumps were beautiful. She had a way about landing them. The criticism people had about her edging, I never saw. She was as Peggy says "breathtakingly beautiful."

 

[Spun Silver]

When I watch skating I hope to see the gods playing on Mount Olympus.

That might look like exquisite Sasha shooting for both complexity and perfection and falling... lovely little Mao dancing effortlessly on a wave and not falling... or Alexei channeling Baryshnikov.

Mainly I don't want to see a lot of either chugging-puffing or dull paint-by-numbers skating. I'm also not too interested in fakeness - eg a 16-year-old doing an uncanny imitation of Mata Hari (sorry, Yu Na - you were astoundingly beautiful but be yourself next time).

But I'm very happy with a skater like Miki, where you see both effort and flashes of greatness.

So I guess fall or no fall is not really what it's about to me either. I want to see humans rise to the level of the gods and I want to taste that ambrosia, even if only for a second.

 

[heyang]

My cousin's wife just commented that she doesn't like watching skating now because she doesn't understand how someone who falls could beat someone who didn't. I did explain to her that they are doing much more difficult programs than some of the cleaner ones. However, this is probably one reason why people aren't interested in skating.


For example, a lot of people would think that Caroline Zhang would win at senior levels because of her wow factor, 'The Pearl' and a clean skate. More knowledgeable viewers would know that her jump content is not as high as some other sr ladies, etc.

 

[SeaniBu]

^ It really isn't funny but....

The friend of mine who said "ALL TENS" to Carolina's SP at words, and I exsplained it was a little different then that - I showed him the score sheets. I don't know how to explain the look.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/gallery/2001/10/17/rings01.jpg
He just looked away after a second or two of scanning the page for something that made sense, reached for his beer and said " I'll stick with Give her all +3s until they change that over complicated (not his words) scoring."

I do wish it could be easier format for people to grasp, or even feel like they can.

 

[Hsuhs]

Is it about Mao being wuzrobbed? Is there a mention of a 'slightly' as opposed to 'obviously' 2-footed jump in the CoP? I don't think so.

Why award a messy technique with a gold? All those cheated landings, under rotated combos, and level 1 spins.

 

[kyla2]

Clean Programs

O.k. how about this comparison: an opera singer forgets the words mid song and then shakes it off and goes on. She would be booed right off the stage. Now I am not for booing skaters if they fall but there should be no points for falling on a jump. Why? Because the flow and beauty of the program is significantly disrupted. I will take a clean program any day of the week over an attempted but failed triple axel (ladies) or failed quad (men). Under this system each part and move is graded and the whole program/performance is not. Consequently, what we have are uninspiring programs which lack beauty, flow and choreography. Shen and Zhao being the one exception. This worlds was the most lackluster in many years.

 

[Spun Silver]

O.k. how about this comparison: an opera singer forgets the words mid song and then shakes it off and goes on. She would be booed right off the stage. .

I doubt it. The only time anyone ever got booed off the stage that I can recall, it got reported in the Times, i.e., it's highly rare. Singers mess up. We don't care. We love them for their singing, not their memories. But that's the Met - maybe opera audiences are harsher outside NYC?

I will remember this Worlds especially for Yu Na's SP (even if I object to her vamping, she did it marvelously); Takahashi's passion and perfection; D/L and S/Z with their transcendent performances; Mao's great comeback; and gorgeous, determined Miki squeaking out the gold with her two clean programs. I haven't seen most of the men's programs yet so I'm sure there will be more. I had a great time - just wished ESPN showed more skaters and wished they had found some pretext to include Johnny in the gala.

 

[satorare]

Ando might be "conservetive" to avoid 4S, yet her FP is technically very difficult. Especially 3Lz-3Lo combo is only possible by Slutskaya of her best days and Mao Asada. Even Slutskaya dare not try that in SP. Ando skated clean with two difficult programs, which are not the most impressive though. I don't have any bad feelings like when I saw "clean Kwan" winning over errored Slutskaya.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I am under the impression that most skating fans like to watch skating because of the (at least potential) beauty of the performances; glitches and falls definitely mar the beauty of a performance*. Figure skating, to me, and I am sure to most others, is not like NASCAR or Luge, where most of the appeal (at least IMHO) has to do with sitting there watching it waiting for someone to completely crash or biff. Perhaps all skating events should start holding seperate competitions for just JUMPING for people who are just in it to watch the technical bar get raised higher and/or see skaters fall on their butts. (Actually, I have a feeling this kind of thing would actually help skating get back some of its lost audience)

*There have, however, been exceptions. At the 83 Nationals, at the very end of the free dance, Judy Blumberg stumbled, nearly ended up on her face, and had to do this near half-somersault thing to recover, but it was done so well it was actually a lot cooler than the ending she and Michael Siebert had actually choreographed. Then there was Jamie & David falling on top of each other at the end of their SP in SLC -- not choreographed, BUT -- given the theme of the program, actually a very appropriate ending that I think actually ENHANCED the program. But this kind of thing happens about once or twice a decade.....

 

[Mathman]

^Or when the "illusion spin" was accidentally invented be Jacqueline de Bief when she fell out of her camel. :thumbsup:

 

[Mathman]

My cousin's wife just commented that she doesn't like watching skating now because she doesn't understand how someone who falls could beat someone who didn't. I did explain to her that they are doing much more difficult programs than some of the cleaner ones....

But I don't think this is a problem for most sports fans. The quarterback throws an interception, then he comes back and throws two touchdowns. At the end of the game you add up the points and see who wins.

If we agree (I'm not sure I do) that figure skating needs to become "more like a real sport" and that the new judging system is a step in that direction, I don't see any reason why this should confuse the fans.

 

[mzheng]

I've got a funny two standards for "clean". ONe is from the perspective of the the performance and the other is technically clean.

Technically clean means error free in the technical elements a two foot or step out of a jump, or a fall. A wildly unctonrolled spin, a trip or stumble in the footwark or a wobbly uncontrolled spiral sequence. All of these things matter and count towards the mark for the elements. A big error (like a fall) will always dirupt the program, whether its a fall on an attempted quadruple salchow or if the skater caught an edge doing a bracket in the step sequence. If there are a few minor erros in the program - a handful of -1 GOE type things then it doesn't really matter to me.

The performance clean for me is generally all about the skater really trying to do the program and doing nothing to detract from that performance. This is nearly always greatly marred by a fall. A two-footed landing of a jump, or a turn out, even a popped jump to me doesn't detract from the performance if the skater blocks it out of their mind and continues to sell the program.

Personally i prefer both technically and performance-y (!) clean programs. A clean performance usually wins in my mind over a non clean performance but that might change if you look at the technical content. A beuaitufl lyrical performance showing excellent basic skating skills, control and speed with onyl double jumps up to a double axel may be a thing of beauty to watch but i don't think it should beat a program by an equally competant basic skills skater who landed three triple jump but fell on two. If a skater with sloppy basics, average control but slow across the ice squeaked out three triple and fell on three, i'd be very tempted to give the win to the double jumps program.

Ant (who doesn't actually think he answered the question!)

ITA. For competitive figure skating.

However, for me as personal enjoyment, if a program marred with a fall, no matter how difficult or how emotional it was skated, I would never consider it as a master piece to be collected.

 

[JonnyCoop]

^Or when the "illusion spin" was accidentally invented be Jacqueline de Bief when she fell out of her camel. :thumbsup:

Was it really? I didn't know that.

Now that I think of it, I seem to recall reading somewhere that that "on the knees" spin that Candeloro used to do also came out of him falling out of something else...

Still, I can't see many "happy accidents" coming out of missed jumps. Seems to me if that were possible, we would have seen something along that line by now...

 

[antmanb]

I am under the impression that most skating fans like to watch skating because of the (at least potential) beauty of the performances; glitches and falls definitely mar the beauty of a performance*. Figure skating, to me, and I am sure to most others, is not like NASCAR or Luge, where most of the appeal (at least IMHO) has to do with sitting there watching it waiting for someone to completely crash or biff. Perhaps all skating events should start holding seperate competitions for just JUMPING for people who are just in it to watch the technical bar get raised higher and/or see skaters fall on their butts. (Actually, I have a feeling this kind of thing would actually help skating get back some of its lost audience)

But the "Top Jump" competition that was just that never really attracted a large group of skaters. It was interesting up to a point but its an awful lot of waiting around and prep just to see one jump from each skater. I'm not sure whether anyone other than hardcore skating fans went to see it, and i don't think it was televised outside of the french chanel that was recording it (it was in france both (or was it more than twice?) that it was held).

Ant

 

[Kwanford Wife]

For me, its simple... I watch skating because its a sport. In sports, athelets should push the limits but also be perfect. If a program is perfect while maintaining pre-set notions of what is technically superior & what is not, then that program is the best and should be judged as such. Skating fans drive me crazy with the idea that if a skater is lovely to see, then they should be placed ahead of a skater who actually got the job done.

There should be no reward in wowing the crowd & then falling, two-footing, falling out of a spin or something else that is a mistake. And if a skater makes an error, they should be prepared to lose the top spot - regardless of who they are & how I feel. There is a difference between what you feel & what is real. Either skating is a sport and should be viewed as such - meaning perfection or it should be viewed as athletic performance. You cannot have it both ways... If you could, Michelle Kwan would be a two-time olympic champion - but she wasn't perfect, therefore she is not. It doesn't take away her goddessness, but it does deprive her of the gold. Same with Irinia, Sasha, Mao, and all the rest... It is what it is.