A fascination with clean

[Mathman]

You cannot have it both ways...

Well, figure skating has always been defined as the sport that does have it both ways. The first mark. And the second mark. The TES. And the PCS.

If skating did not have this Jeckyl and Hyde thing going for it, there would be no reason for the sport to exist in the first place. We already have plenty of sports. Why would we need figure skating?

 

[Mathman]

For me, its simple... I watch skating because its a sport. In sports, athelets should push the limits but also be perfect.... Either skating is a sport and should be viewed as such - meaning perfection or it should be viewed as athletic performance.

Do champions in other sports really achieve "perfection?" Did Michael Jordan hit every shot he took? Does Tiger Woods make every putt?

No, just more than the other guy.

 

[SeaniBu]

OK, I really want to know if the Illusion spin was really "created" for that reason.????

^Or when the "illusion spin" was accidentally invented be Jacqueline de Bief when she fell out of her camel. :thumbsup:

If not it is funny, if so it is really interesting.:yes:

I think the running score mark being known during the action of the competition - not after it is over - is something sports fans usually like. Time left, etc....

The "numbers" of the sport come to be confusing because they become so large in comparison to most other popular sports and most don't know what and where the score was placed. The "factored by" just leave the average sports fan with a notion they will need a calculator. I am seeing how the scoring works and why, but I did have to "work at it" where as most want to just look and know, or learn as they go. And tutorials don't work with a majority of sports fans. IMO because they can't sit and fake it until they really start understanding. Saying "hold on a second bud, I need to hear the the scoring tutorial" is a dead give away.

When I told the friend - with the "look of confusion first time gazing upon the score sheet - about the fact a fall on a 3 can gain points of a 2 and a deduction for falling, he did seem to get the understanding of someone falling placing above someone "clean." So a fall on a 3a is still going to get 2a marks - poor but still gain the points. If every other skater is only pulling 2a s you can see how the scores really don't get separated that far from each other just because of a fall.

But things like Carolina getting a 8 from one judge in interpretation and another giving a 6.75 is going to have people wondering.....
Now factor that by 0.80, add the......
Most just turned to another topic "did you see that pass last weekend? 48 yards for a 14 yard run, wow. And his spiral was perfect, the receivers stride was so long I thought he would go all the way."
Same things being appreciated, but on a simple scale - saw the yards passed and ran, saw the throw and thought it looked great, etc...

If there was some way for people to "grasp" the scorring I don't think they would rely on their eyes - hence not putting so much solely on the factor of a clean program. But it also works in favor to point out how a football team can win even if they had more mistakes. It is ultimately numbers on the board in the end. Both sports.

JAT.

Do champions in other sports really achieve "perfection?" Did Michael Jordan hit every shot he took? Does Tiger Woods make every putt?

No, just more than the other guy.

Ain't it the truth!

 

[Mathman]

OK, I really want to know if the Illusion spin was really "created" for that reason.????

As far as I know, this is true (scroll down to "history.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_spin

I think the running score mark being known during the action of the competition - not after it is over - is something sports fans usually like. Time left, etc....

That would be totally cool. The only drawback it that there would still be a lot of corrections afterward, due to downgrades, changes in expected levels, etc. -- plus the PCSs could change the outcome after the audience has seen the "clear winner" rack up the most points in real time.

Worth a shot, though.

The "numbers" of the sport come to be confusing because they become so large in comparison to most other popular sports and most don't know what and where the score was placed.

This is true, but maybe if they just concentrated of the base marks for the major technical elements they could mitigate this problem.

For instance, for jumps there are six different kinds, with increasing difficulty. The scores start at 4.0 for the easiest and go up by increments of .5. Except for the Big Daddy triple Axel that is so hard that you get an extra bonus. -- Something like that would be a good start in understanding the scoring.

But things like Carolina getting a 8 from one judge in interpretation and another giving a 6.75 is going to have people wondering...

This I think can't be helped. It is a judged sport. Judges will have differences of opinion.

Just like the sport of pie-baking. At the county fair one judge likes Aunt Suzie's sweet potato the best, another judge goes for Grandma Jenkins blueberry.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Grandma Jenkins can't bake her way out of a paper bag!

If there was some way for people to "grasp" the scorring I don't think they would rely on their eyes...

That is a great insight. We see it on the figure skating boards all the time. After every contest, people come on and say, "well, I liked so-and-so's performance the best. They deserved to win."

Or even, "Michelle really won in Nagano, but they gave it to Tara."

This doesn't happen in other sports. However beautifully the Denver Nuggets played last night, however much they "deserved" to win, "Ball Don't Lie."

Yes, that 62-footer by the Piston's Rasheed Wallace at the buzzer went in! :chorus:

 

[SeaniBu]

This doesn't happen in other sports. However beautifully the the Denver Nuggets played last night, however much they "deserved" to win, "ball don't lie." Yes, that 62-footer by the Piston's Rasheed Wallce at the buzzer went in. :chorus:

That is such a good example, also says something for competitors like Sasha or Z&Z that might have had a mistake but the SKATERS STAYED IN THE GAME, fought until the very end.

PCSs could change the outcome after the audience has seen the "clear winner" rack up the most points in real time.

That is a realtime scoreboard issue, but could be played off as the "nail biter" - you saw how they scored based on the elements and their base values to know where they stand and now lets see the judges marks.
"Miki received 34.10 points for elements and with the judges marks on these elements, she gets a 38.67 for components and with the PCS of a 29.31 gives her a 67.98.

Leaving out the ADVERTISED fact (not hiding just not publicizing) Miki received a 9.00 from one judge in interpretation and a 6.50 (from the blind judge ) might be a good idea for a starting viewer. Look at Yu-Na's and see there is at most a .75 difference in scores is going to get people wondering. I am.:yes:

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Do champions in other sports really achieve "perfection?" Did Michael Jordan hit every shot he took? Does Tiger Woods make every putt?

No, just more than the other guy.

Point taken... but what gymnastics? Lose that footing, lose the gold. Perfection should be the ultimate guideline in judged events.

 

[Mathman]

Leaving out the ADVERTISED fact (not hiding just not publicizing) Miki received a 9.00 from one judge in interpretation and a 6.50 (from the blind judge ) might be a good idea for a starting viewer. Look at Yu-Na's and see there is at most a .75 difference in scores is going to get people wondering. I am.:yes:

That is really a good example. But an honest one. As we know from reading Golden Skate there really is a wide differentce of opinion about Ando's performance skills. Some see her as ungainly, bad posture, lacking in grace, weak spiral, no extension, wobbly edges, nothing but jumps. Others think she is elegant, exquisite, beautiful lines, total command of the ice, musically expressive.

The judges though so, too. One gave her a 6.50, another 9.00.

For Kim, there does not seem to be any such difference of opinion. Everyone thinks she's the cat's pajamas in all categories, only she had those two falls so she didn't win.

 

[SeaniBu]

I am going to try this thought, just a thought no one kill me please.

Take out the 5 factors of PCS and make it one score from 10 - 50 each judge. Or 1 - 10.

No factored grade (.80) - every one getting the same factor to start sounds like there is a flaw in the way the score is tallied to start with and this "factor" is to try and compensate.

"Are we using Pi to figure out circle circumference and skating?" - not a good example I confess.

Post the "possible base score" for the elements at the start of the programme. This might show people something regarding who needs perfect and who can afford a fall.

OK, I'll stop, I feel that first one is enough to get me in hot water.

BTW, isn't it MM's Birthday today? OOp, no'p tomorrow.

 

[antmanb]

For me, its simple... I watch skating because its a sport. In sports, athelets should push the limits but also be perfect. If a program is perfect while maintaining pre-set notions of what is technically superior & what is not, then that program is the best and should be judged as such. Skating fans drive me crazy with the idea that if a skater is lovely to see, then they should be placed ahead of a skater who actually got the job done.

There should be no reward in wowing the crowd & then falling, two-footing, falling out of a spin or something else that is a mistake. And if a skater makes an error, they should be prepared to lose the top spot - regardless of who they are & how I feel. There is a difference between what you feel & what is real. Either skating is a sport and should be viewed as such - meaning perfection or it should be viewed as athletic performance. You cannot have it both ways... If you could, Michelle Kwan would be a two-time olympic champion - but she wasn't perfect, therefore she is not. It doesn't take away her goddessness, but it does deprive her of the gold. Same with Irinia, Sasha, Mao, and all the rest... It is what it is.

Honestly i don't think that's what anyone is saying. There are two sets of marks in skating, the day that only one prevails is the day that the scoring system is changed so that only one set of marks is awarded.

The former presentation mark and the now PCS are not marks that are given based on "how lovely" a skater is to see, its based on set criteria that appear in the rules and some of those are pretty technical e.g. transitions - being moves that you must execute, skating skills etc.

I am as uber a fan of MIchelle as you KW but even on presentation alone Kwan wouldn't have won in SLC because Hughes had her beat on that mark as well (on my scorecard, i'm not sure about on the actual night from teh judges). Nagano you would have an argument.

The second statement i've made bold in the above quote again i think is missing the point. Some fans do gripe about a result based purely on the fact that they like a particular skater over another. The debate that i think people actually have is not around that, but around how you balance the mark given for technical and about the mark given for PCS. This has always been a big debate in skating, and i think there will always be arguments both ways. Purists will tell you that an ability to spin three times in the air is not necessarily as important a skating skill as e.g. spinning in a centred spot on the ice in difficult positions, or executing clean turns that generate power, speed and flow.

The dichotomy is, IMO, put in place because of the two marks awarded in skating, not from fans whining!

Ant

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Honestly i don't think that's what anyone is saying. There are two sets of marks in skating, the day that only one prevails is the day that the scoring system is changed so that only one set of marks is awarded.

The former presentation mark and the now PCS are not marks that are given based on "how lovely" a skater is to see, its based on set criteria that appear in the rules and some of those are pretty technical e.g. transitions - being moves that you must execute, skating skills etc.

I am as uber a fan of MIchelle as you KW but even on presentation alone Kwan wouldn't have won in SLC because Hughes had her beat on that mark as well (on my scorecard, i'm not sure about on the actual night from teh judges). Nagano you would have an argument.

The second statement i've made bold in the above quote again i think is missing the point. Some fans do gripe about a result based purely on the fact that they like a particular skater over another. The debate that i think people actually have is not around that, but around how you balance the mark given for technical and about the mark given for PCS. This has always been a big debate in skating, and i think there will always be arguments both ways. Purists will tell you that an ability to spin three times in the air is not necessarily as important a skating skill as e.g. spinning in a centred spot on the ice in difficult positions, or executing clean turns that generate power, speed and flow.

The dichotomy is, IMO, put in place because of the two marks awarded in skating, not from fans whining!

Ant

Oh, I totally agree... and must admit to climbing up on the soapbox and then hitting submit without re-reading my post to clairfy... I just get sick of the "wuz robbing" and argument that pointed toes should count for more than perfection on ice... Its justannoying to someone who watches for the sport aspect. Espcially after a worlds competition where all four golds went to teams that were simply technically & perforance-wise superior to the runner-ups and people still complain...

You know what... let's keep it real... I simply like perfect programs with great music, strong edges, perfect spirals without crotch shots, good costumes, clean jumps, clear choreography that doesn't require "method acting," passion and hot footwork. All the rest is secondary for me and I don't understand how people could disagree with me... (like MY opinion isn't the only correct notion of how things should be... as if... )

As for Kwan at the games... sooo many kwaniacs whined about Sarah & Tara without focusing on the fact that in one case she was outskated and then she fell. Its sad, but she lost because she didn't skate perfectly.

 

[gkelly]

Well, there are many competitions (especially SPs) where several skaters have clean programs. No one is perfect, there's always something each skater could have done better, but lack of outright errors is certainly possible.

And there are even more competitions (especially LPs) where no one skates a perfect program.

So in those cases the winner can't be decided by a simple rule that clean programs always beat programs with errors. There have to be additional standards.

And in fact some of those standards are more important than the question of whether a program was clean or not. Especially pervasive qualities like basic skating between the elements.

 

[SeaniBu]

You know what... let's keep it real... I simply like perfect programs with great music, strong edges, perfect spirals without crotch shots, good costumes, clean jumps, clear choreography that doesn't require "method acting," passion and hot footwork. All the rest is secondary for me and I don't understand how people could disagree with me... (like MY opinion isn't the only correct notion of how things should be... as if... ).

To me SOME OF that is not "Real."

^The more I hear certain things brought up about FS that really don't matter and are subject to anatomy comments, the more I think the people with the issues are the problem. Sorry, but the more I hear it the thought comes to mind, the less it is brought up (because it really has nothing to do with the skating just peoples "comfort zone) the less people think about it. I feel like saying "put it out there and get them used to it so they can finally get over it and enjoy the skating." They will never ban the Candlestick and ladies will always wear skirts from time to time, etc.... Get over it and move on.

I am really sorry, for going off like that (fair is fair) I hate to be that way but it gets to me that it is more a focus of those who don't want to see it than those who don't care. It is the human body, so what!? Besides, the women skating are strong mentally to get over it and that is something. I could do without seeing Brian J without his shirt, but accept it.

JMO. I have got to rant once and awhile.

Again sorry for going off. it is just so disappointing how we hide that in which we are, through fear and judgment. Sorry.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

To me SOME OF that is not "Real."

^The more I hear certain things brought up about FS that really don't matter and are subject to anatomy comments, the more I think the people with the issues are the problem. Sorry, but the more I hear it the thought comes to mind, the less it is brought up (because it really has nothing to do with the skating just peoples "comfort zone) the less people think about it. I feel like saying "put it out there and get them used to it so they can finally get over it and enjoy the skating." They will never ban the Candlestick and ladies will always wear skirts from time to time, etc.... Get over it and move on.

Besides, ever since Sonia that has been a draw of the sport, does anyone think the Ladies don't know? Deal. I am really sorry, for going off like that (fair is fair) I hate to be that way but it gets to me that it is more a focus of those who don't want to see it than those who don't mind. It is the human body, so what!? Besides, the women skating are strong mentally to get over it and that is something. I could do without seeing Brian J without his shirt, but accept it.

JMO. I have got to rant once and awhile.

Again sorry for going off. it is just so disappointing how we hide that in which we are, through fear and judgment. Sorry.

Hey, Sean... someone is posting under your name!!

I'm so confused... I don't like crotch shots because "the dog peeing on the hydriant" spiral is ugly. It has NOTHING to do with my personal hang-ups about women and our bodies... heck, I don't care if you skate butt naked if you look good doing it. Nor do I have anything against the dresses. I do have a problem with ugly fashion... totally different. I'd rather go naked than wear ugly clothes or bad shoes...

And when I say "lets keep it real" what I'm saying is let me stop trying to be all skaterific with my post and simply state what I personally like to see... and that's what that list was about. So sorry to offend. I was just breaking down my personal preferences which are: clean jumps, great music & costumes, passion vs. bad acting, strong edges, perfect spirals WITHOUT "the dog peeing on the hydriant" position and cool, clear, modern choro within a technically difficult program w/ great presentation... That's all nothing else. Nothing personal.

What is personal however is not liking Brian Joubert without his shirt on. That is simply unacceptable... Those are fighting words... everything else is fair game!

(and doesn't it simply feel good to go off on a rant every now & then...teehee...)

 

[SeaniBu]

Hey, Sean... someone is posting under your name!!

What is personal however is not liking Brian Joubert without his shirt on. That is simply unacceptable... Those are fighting words... everything else is fair game!

Agreed, he has every right. And any lady or man to view.:agree:

(and doesn't it simply feel good to go off on a rant every now & then...teehee...)

Yes!

btw, most of that (both of your posts) I agree with.:agree: Just wanted to give you a hard time for not seeing Eat Drink Man Woman.

And as most of you might know I prefer the "panted" outfits anyway.

I don't know how to get back to the topic, sorry everyone.

 

[kyla2]

Spun Silver

Regarding booing at the opera: the audiences at La Scala in Italy are FAMOUS for booing singers who aren't in voice. They don't take any prisoners. They used to boo Maria Callas if they weren't happy. Then again, if they love you there are no better audiences in the world.

 

[Mathman]

Take out the 5 factors of PCS and make it one score from 10 - 50 each judge. Or 1 - 10.

That's exactly how it was under ordinal judging, except that the range was 0.0 to 6.0.

Then there was one overall score for the total technical content, also from 0.0 to 6.0.

No factoring, no controversial downgrades, simple as pie. (Just don't ask how to do OBO, LOL.)

 

[Spun Silver]

Regarding booing at the opera: the audiences at La Scala in Italy are FAMOUS for booing singers who aren't in voice. They don't take any prisoners. They used to boo Maria Callas if they weren't happy. Then again, if they love you there are no better audiences in the world.

Just goes to show how nice and polite New Yorkers are. I keep trying to tell people, but no one will believe me.

 

[hockeyfan228]

O.k. how about this comparison: an opera singer forgets the words mid song and then shakes it off and goes on. She would be booed right off the stage. .

Actually I saw Marilyn Horne lose her place at the beginning of "Ma coeur s'ouvre a ta voix," Delilah's big aria, during her farewell tour in a concert with the Seattle Symphony. She stopped the conductor, announced that she had just had a "senior moment" and started over. The crowd roared in approval, and the "encore" was just terrific.

In over 35 years of opera-going, I've heard a number of great opera singers crack notes, lose their place, get behind the music, get stuck, have coughing fits because of dust or dryness. I heard Beverly Sills and Norman Treigle try to sing in Julius Caesar when both of them were suffering from the flu. I heard a singer with torn ligaments sing a role from the side of the stage which his understudy lip-synched and mimed the role. S**t happens, and the singers weren't booed off the stage.

I've seen dancers wipe out on stage. Balanchine loved when dancers fell, because they were expending 110% of their energy and not holding back.

If a skater falters, gets up, and continues with energy and can refocus, there's no reason to trash the skater for mistakes. It's when a skater has no energy or is enervated by an early mistake that it's painful to watch. In a show, a skater who performs on auto-pilot might get booed.

 

[Spun Silver]

What a great post! You brought together 3 of my passions - opera, Balanchine and skating. Thanks for articulating so eloquently what I was groping for with my post about Mt Olympus. What's the point of auto-pilot, play-it-safe "perfection"? I want beauty and passion and to see the impossible executed with precision and grace.

This is why show skating is not satisfying... it is all about what we know is possible, dressed up like Broadway. It's that edge of impossibility that makes skating amazing.

 

[Ladskater]

To put it in laymen's terms - there has to be some kind of "measuring rod" in figure skating for the outcome to be fair. It used to be school figures. In those days the skater with the best figures - no matter how they skated their free program won. There were some great figure skaters - Trixi Schuba to name one - who were masters at school figures but not so great at free skating. After the elimination of figures from competition the emphasis went more on the outcome of the short program. Which ever skater had the strongest lead in the short usually won the long - even if he or she fell. Now it seems with the new scoring system one has to be perfect at both short and long programs. Skaters are taking less risks especially in their long programs. I would say Jeff Buttle was gutsy to try a quad in his long program at Worlds since he has never landed one in competition and also has had a short season. He took the risk as you were mentioning. Jeff knew when he stepped on the ice the quad was the deciding factor for the men.

Also one could compare it to listening to a concert pianist playing Beethoven for example. Would you enjoy the concert if the pianist constantly hit wrong notes? It would certainly take away from the beauty of the music being played. Concert pianists srtive for perfection likewise figure skaters strive for that "perfect" or "clean" skate.