A glance at who is skating where in the GPs

[Mathman]

I think the CoP is a big obstacle to reviving the popularity of figure skating in the United States.

To enjoy watching a soccer game, all a person needs to know about the sport is that if you kick the ball into the goal you score a point. If you can work the ball down deep into the other guys' end of the pitch then at least you might get a good shot on goal.

To enjoy a tennis match, all you need to know is that if you hit the ball into the net or out of the lines, then the other guy gets a point. If you win a few points, that's a game, and if you win a few games that's a set.

Of course if you know more, that's all to the good, but it is not necessary for enjoying the sport as a live or television spectator.

In figure skating, it used to be that all you needed to know to enjoy watching the sport was, if you do a bunch of hard jumps and don't fall down, then you get a 5.7 or 5,8 in tech. If you look graceful and skate with pizzazz, you might get a 5,8 in presentation, and if you look really, really graceful and skate with a lot of pizzazz, then you might get a 5.9.

With CoP scoring the general audience does not have the foggiest notion of what it is the skaters are getting points for (he turned to the right at least one-third of the time in his footwork sequence?), or why one skater ended up higher than another.

It is all very well to say that the ISU and the television commentators ought to educate the audience, but the audience is not seeking education. You cannot tell the audience what they ought to enjoy or appreciate. On the contrary, the audience will tell you -- with their remotes.

 

[Mattieu]

With CoP scoring the general audience does not have the foggiest notion of what it is the skaters are getting points for (he turned to the right at least one-third of the time in his footwork sequence?), or why one skater ended up higher than another.

The same could be said of gymnastics. I used to fully understand gymnasts scores in the times of Nadia Commaneci and Olga Korbut. Now, with the more complicated scoring system triggered by Nadia Commaneci's perfect scores, I have little idea what is going on with respect to the marking. However, even though I don't understand how they are scored, I still enjoy the gymnastics as much as ever.

 

[Mathman]

I think gymnastics is in the same predicament as figure skating. A scoring system that works well within the sport does not necessarily reach out and grab the audience.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Figure Skating (and to a certain extent, Gymnastics) are Female Friendly spectator fans moreso than Soccer, Hockey, etc. Two thirds of the figure skating scoring is done by the pageant-like method of giving opinions, and the Winner and its podium are based on a consensus by multi judgeships. Presumably the judges have a degree in Fine Arts or something similar and also have clear definitions of the elements.

However, almost completing an element gets partial credit as well as trying to do a more difficult trick gets an attempt partial credit. Not seen in any other Sport.

There are many restrictions to the sport. The contestants must perform within these restrictions. They are not permitted to show their best as figure skaters but only as prescribed the current rules.

 

[Mathman]

Figure Skating (and to a certain extent, Gymnastics) are Female Friendly spectator fans moreso than Soccer, Hockey, etc. Two thirds of the figure skating scoring is done by the pageant-like method of giving opinions, and the Winner and its podium are based on a consensus by multi judgeships...

There is an intriguing book review in the latest International Figure Skating magazine. I haven't read the book, but according to the reviewer it focuses on the men's discipline and on the question,

If figure skating first evolved as a dignified pursuit for upper-class men, when and why did it become an activity that draws ridicule for boys? When did figure skating become a “girl’s sport?”

http://www.ifsmagazine.com/articles/573-artistic-impressions-by-mary-louise-adams

The author, a Canadian, finds fault with the "Canadian sports media during the 1990s, when machismo was touted as the best style of men’s skating."

Evidently this ploy failed as a marketing strategy, in the opinion of the author.

 

[feraina]

I think the CoP is a big obstacle to reviving the popularity of figure skating in the United States.

A much bigger obstacle than CoP is the lack of credible U.S. ladies contenders for the Olympic or Worlds podiums. Figure skating is immensely popular in Korea and Japan, which have monopolized the gold medal for several years now. Yu-na is the biggest celebrity in her country. Mao & Miki not far behind in theirs. If you have world-class skaters that look beautiful and get good competitive results, the audience will tune in even if they don't understand all the intricacies of the scoring system.

What fraction of the audience knew what differentiated a 5.8 from 5.9 in presentation, or 5.4 from 5.5 in technical elements, back in the 6.0 days? Who understood the factored scoring system? Even though these intricacies determined outcomes at the biggest championships...

I'm not saying CoP is perfect. It obviously has many shortcomings. But to blame the lack of popularity of figure skating in the U.S. on CoP alone is overly simplistic.

USFSA needs to figure out how to produce skaters that compete with the very best under CoP. Look at Canada, it manages to produce more medal contenders than the U.S. despite being a much more poorly funded organization and having a much smaller pool of talents to work with (ever seen Junior level competition at their National's?). Maybe the problem with USFSA is that it's just too decentralized. So often talented skaters don't continue because of funding difficulties, or conflict between training and schooling, or coaching/partner changes. In most other countries, there is a lot more financial and logistic assistance, uniformity in standards, etc.

I can't imagine a debacle like Rachael Flatt's Worlds experience and subsequent reprimand/fine happening in any of the other top skating countries. Their federations are much more in touch with their athletes and coaches. Maybe USFSA should look to Skate Canada to see if there are not some lessons to be learned.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Mathman's saying in a relative system, you don't have to understand to enjoy it, whereas in an objective system (which COP is designed to be, but yes, I'm well aware it isn't Hernando) understanding is certainly more necessary. He's right, but as you point out feraina, other countries seem to be fine with it.

That said, I'd beg USFSA to avoid following Skate Canada in many respects, and development of skaters is certainly one of them. The Flatt thing might not have happened, but it's not for nothing that her result eclipsed that of Phaneuf/LaCoste (to say nothing of what Czisny did, or that Zawadski/Gao outscored Phaneuf at World Juniors.) I do think there are things that SC does well (a more egalitarian approach to each event, for sure)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think MM brought up the question of what place Men have in the laurels of Figure Skating.

Let's face it, it is a Women's Sport by the Media since day one, and which has been losing its appeal for some tiime.

What is the percentage of girls to boys taking skating lessons? Which has the higher percentage of Skating Board fans-girls or boys?

Men see a good presentation in a performance without faults. Women are more interested being moved by a performance.

The above are general statements with exceptions.

The Sport aspect of skating lies in its defined jumps where the number of air rotations contributes more to a skater's performance than demonstrating actual choreographic steps to music.

The ISU has to run an organized competitions. It's too late for changing its methods.

 

[cooper]

I think the CoP is a big obstacle to reviving the popularity of figure skating in the United States.

I disagree.. it's easy to blame the system when you don't have a dominant skater that can rely on... if there's a top US lady skater/s now I'm sure figure skating will be revived.. though not as popular before but it will slowly get the attention..

 

[janetfan]

I disagree.. it's easy to blame the system when you don't have a dominant skater that can rely on... if there's a top US lady skater/s now I'm sure figure skating will be revived.. though not as popular before but it will slowly get the attention..

I dunno....newer fans don't remember how popular Scott, Brian and Randy and Tai were in their day.

Reliable :think: Who has been more reliable than D/W and I could even include Evan in that category.

I think if Mirai or Rachael had won a medal at the Olympics or Worlds it would barely have made a ripple in USA.

Skating was bigger here 30-40 years ago. Its already had it's time and different things are more interesting to Americans today.

This girl will be more popular in USA in the next four years than any skater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRbf0huZLLA

"Her speed for 20 meters is as fast as the men" which is why her teammates refer to the youngest player on the team as the "baby horse."

Pageanty type sports were big in the USA in the past but that era is over here.

.

 

[Mathman]

Pageanty type sports were big in the USA in the past but that era is over here.

I agree with this assessment. A society's tastes in entertainment change.

Still, I think the ISU is headed in the wrong direction if they think they can, or should, make figure skating "more like other sports." It isn't, and I believe that we should instead celebrate what makes figure skating different from other sports.

On this board there are many discussions of one skater being more musical than another. That's not sports.

One skater always skates in the same style, but another is capable of interpreting many different types of music. That's not sports.

Skaters get points for presenting aesthetically intriguing choreography. That's not sports.

Feraina made a good point above about the popularity of skating in Korea. If Yu-na Kim were just as talented, but ugly, there would be no Korean skating boom.

To me, figure skating is more like the Roman gladiatorial contests. Sport and pageant all rolled into one. I don't think skating need apologize for that or try to pretend that it isn't so. Some people will continue to enjoy it; others won't.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Much of what you say is true. Soccer is not like Tennis, why should it be? Scoring Soccer is different than scoring Tennis. yet they are worldwide favorite sports. I do not think the iSU is trying to make figure skating like other sports.

Where Figure Skating is differnt than all other Sports is the use of Music. Music interferes with the quantifiable elements because of its attempt at quantifying opinions. After scoring the quantifiable elements figure skating relies on opinions for its required program and for its results.

Yes indeed figure skating is part sport and part pagaentry. It not only wont change; it can't change. The ISU will lose just about all its fans if they eliminated the pagaentry.

The fans who love the pagaentry (as fans love the Ms World contest) will stick by it through thick and thin, even if viewing it is limited by TV decisions. Why not?

I'll watch competitions for the musical talent that I appreciate. (Just not into barrel jumping.)

 

[Olympia]

You and me both, Joesitz! I'll take Debussy over barrel jumping any day. I agree with both you and Math.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But to negate Kwan, and other skaters because they may not have fulfilled the CoP's requirements is a bit much for me to swallow.

Figure Skating is an eye-catching sport because of the music. The Wow elements enhance the music as part of the choreography which is set to the beat and rhythm of the music. Figure skating was built on movements on the ice and not movements in the air. A skater should show Flow, Stroking, Skating Turns where blade hits the ice. Yet for most fans, it is the air turns only in one direction that are the important elements of scoring.

For a bigger thrill, I would suggest Skate Boarding which offers air turns in both directions.

 

[sorcerer]

.....Figure Skating is an eye-catching sport because of the music. The Wow elements enhance the music as part of the choreography which is set to the beat and rhythm of the music. Figure skating was built on movements on the ice and not movements in the air. A skater should show Flow, Stroking, Skating Turns where blade hits the ice. Yet for most fans, it is the air turns only in one direction that are the important elements of scoring.
For a bigger thrill, I would suggest Skate Boarding which offers air turns in both directions.

Quite late to respond but there are many ways to see it differently.
- Figure Skating is an eye-catching sport because of the jumps and other physically difficult tasks, and is an heart-catching art because of the music. No marketing possible if you take away thrill/risk of the jumps. It is the "Don't fall plz" nail-biting that catches most of the rather new-comer fans (and the die-hard fans too).
- Wow elements can also be spins (Chinese fans mostly cheer for this), steps (Chan wows us for this), or even spirals (Shizuka's hand-let-go Y spiral f'rinstance).
- Jumps are movements made mostly on the ice, what's between take-offs and landings are merely the visual index of the element.

Midori's jumps in the old vids still thrill me. Call them barrel jumping or anything nasty you can think of. That doesn't diminish the value of Ito's accomplishments.

ETA: Figure skating got huge new market because of its integration of jumps into the programs. Jumps are not the reason of the decline of this sport's popularity in the US, IMO. It seems to me the reason is the lack of explanation of the rules in the broadcasts, especially in the commentatings.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
There are more ways to look at skating differently with avid fans of figure skating alone. They are still big fans but see it differently. What I was talking about are the fans that have been leaving it as a must see. Those fans made figure skating popular. They are gone, and since money is involved, the ISU is working on that necessity for running the organized sport.

Will giving an extra GP to presumed "stars" increase the box office sales? I think ticket sales were already sold which included "stars" without any additions. Also I doubt a complete GP will be shown on TV other than a local showing. TV revenues are as important as the ISU revenues.