Aged down programs in senior women?

[lariko]

All this is as I understand it as a fan.

The shift to older age in senior women was in part intended to bring us to the world of the mature, grown women skating (i.e. either Sakomoto or Gubanova's stuff, skating with experience of age, or Lui and Hendrixx like programing in the "I crashed the car into the bridge, I'm the 90s b..." party-party-party style). Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of Japanese new gen on international circuit, including Nakai and Shimada, present what seems deliberately aged-down programs, more like someone who is a pre-teen in style? Not ALL of them -- I want to emphasize that -- but quite a few. Kinda opposite to Russians where every 13 yo jumps out of her skin to be aged up for programs into a drama of a 30-something.

Not sure what the judges' hive mind make with that.

Thoughts? If at all possible, in a non-confrontational way, though I know how hard it is.

 

[4everchan]

I am not so sure it was about the programs at all. So, in that sense, to each their own. There are still juniors skating to Big Spender, Roxanne, Shéhérazade and Méditation de Thaïs, for instance. It's not about the programs they will present but where they are in their development to protect them physically and mentally. (but a rule cannot save them all...) I think that it's less harmful If a senior eligible skater skates to Itsy Bitsy Spider than the juniors skating about being prostitutes at the mercy of older men.

 

[Isk]

I've said the same thing about Russian women representing drama on ice a couple years ago, and was thrown rotten tomatoes at, so better not touch this topic. But I am glad someone else see it. I think a variety is always good. I agree that the most pressing issues behind age raise were the protected athlete problem and the domination of quadsters from a certain training camp. Shimada is a great jumper, but not the best skater or interpreter, maybe juniorish programs is a way of covering certain interpretation limitations, just like drama. It's hard to have it all: some jump well, some skate well, some can't find their balance between skating and jumping, some people do both well.

 

[lariko]

I think the FS's fatal attachment to Roxanne's Tango can be a separate thread. There is a lot to unpack there in terms of why it is a go-to across all ages and disciplines. One thing for sure: it is not the audience that demands it to be performed over and over and over again.

 

[Karoltyna]

I am not so sure it was about the programs at all. So, in that sense, to each their own. There are still juniors skating to Big Spender, Roxanne, Shéhérazade and Méditation de Thaïs, for instance. It's not about the programs they will present but where they are in their development to protect them physically and mentally. (but a rule cannot save them all...) I think that it's less harmful If a senior eligible skater skates to Itsy Bitsy Spider than the juniors skating about being prostitutes at the mercy of older men.

If Guarino-Sabate skates a Minion program, you know it is supposed to be funny. If a child skates to song about prostitutes, you don't want to know what it's supposed to be.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

As others have said, I think it would be preferable to see someone skate a little "young" for their age instead of inappropriately too mature (e.g. Roxanne).

Though I don't agree that Nakai or Shimada are being aged down with their programs. They are both young. I think Shimada's junior free skates have always given her an aura of being mature beyond her years (though not in an inappropriate way) and the peppy short programs are youthful but not childish.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I'm quite into this distinction between youthful and juniorish or childish. Juniorish, in my opinion, is in the quality (imprecision, lack of edges...) of the basic skate; childish is either an immaturity in interpretation, or a wish to look like a child without being credible; youthful is not always appreciated, I do, I have an inner protestation in Opera and Ballet when I read the name of the category of interprets called "soubrette" (a French term initially meaning a young and pretty Lady's maid, I suppose that it came from Theatre to Opera from some parts in Mozart's, my objection being to somehow restricting the voices/ballerinas with this ability to this secondary part, I find it a bit derogatory, 4everchan may correct me if I'm wrong).
An example in Ballet, it took her longer to become a Principal because you know, she's a Soubrette, in the first video when technical agility makes magic, in the second when it makes absolute refinement in the line of the aim of Sleeping Beauty (the Ballet):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

I believe that all personalities are welcome in Figure Skating, of course viewers (and judges) have their preferences but what matters is how they pull it off.

 

[lariko]

I mean 'I'm such a cute littl' girl' style imitating preteen age rather than 16-17 that the skater is versus edges or wrist rotations not holding up to the latest in ballet.

 

[midori green]

I don't think you'd realize Mone Chiba is three months older than Alysa Liu from watching them. Nothing really to be done if your physical features make you look younger or older, but I think there is a difference in maturity in their programs/packaging. "Last Dance" and "MacArthur Park" aren't really all that different conceptually, though.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

@ Lariko and @ Midori Green, when a skater tries to imitate a cute little girl and it doesn't work, it's childish. I suppose that should Alysa Liu try to imitate Mone Chiba, it would be childish. Fortunately, she skates in a way that suits her present personality.
Now, different skaters have different personalities. Particularly in high level Sports, athletes are known for looking physically and being emotionally younger than their age would let guess. Country/cultural differences can do a lot too, with North America being an extreme of "early aging" and Japan the other extreme of "late ageing" — in average (skaters aren't an average, they're persons). That's why Last Dance and Romeo and Juliet are very good choices for Mone Chiba, they're in the character age range she can best interpret, on the base of her physical appearance and what I perceive of her natural self.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I am not sure what you mean by aged programs, but as I read responses.
It more of the younger interpretation of music.
How mature the younger emotes the music thar is old.

My question is do they? All skaters have coaches that teach them how to skate to music and put jumps in Katlyn weaver, The Daniel, Lori McNuchol.

Is it the skaters or choreography.
Most skaters do what the choreography states , few rarely interpret it .
Audience feels numb or don't understand what trying to convey.

the younger tends not to a few exceptions.
Can younger convey music
Yes. If what listen to. Not if classical. It tends to go to more season skaters.

 

[Skating91]

All this is as I understand it as a fan.

The shift to older age in senior women was in part intended to bring us to the world of the mature, grown women skating (i.e. either Sakomoto or Gubanova's stuff, skating with experience of age, or Lui and Hendrixx like programing in the "I crashed the car into the bridge, I'm the 90s b..." party-party-party style). Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of Japanese new gen on international circuit, including Nakai and Shimada, present what seems deliberately aged-down programs, more like someone who is a pre-teen in style? Not ALL of them -- I want to emphasize that -- but quite a few. Kinda opposite to Russians where every 13 yo jumps out of her skin to be aged up for programs into a drama of a 30-something.

Not sure what the judges' hive mind make with that.

Thoughts? If at all possible, in a non-confrontational way, though I know how hard it is.

I think Shimada just doesn't have any depth in her performances it's never really developed as with other girls. Kanazawa and Oka were quite good, so it's not a Japanese thing per se. Nakai and to a lesser extent Chiba (who I quite like although a lot of jump are not rotated) are a little juniorish in their presentation.

For sure Russian girls skate much more mature programs than what their ages are, but I don't think that kind of thing is appreciated on the international circuit.

You just have to listen to the commentators Ted and Chris (and to a lesser extent Mark) they always talk about how much a female skater is smiling, or laughing. For whatever reason a female skater is supposed to be all giggly and smiling at everything. As if giggling and smiling is the only emotion they are supposed to express. Maybe Ted and Chris are trying to impose their values on the rest of the world .

Dzepka's Spartacus free skate is a classic, Shimada for all her beautiful consistent jumps and outrageous spins could not skate a program like that -- ever. Not even one of the greats like Kaori she doesn't have the arms or the upper body movement. Then there is Valieva basically a complete skater in terms of composition and presentation at age 15.

 

[TallyT]

For sure Russian girls skate much more mature programs than what their ages are,

Well, they skated it without any sign of understanding, for which I am grateful, but it came over to me as just young teens soullessly aping what they see on musicvids (with bonus die away airs from Shcherbakova).

Young Mao does seem to be leaning (or being leaned that way by her team) into almost Shirley Temple style childlikeness. I don't care for it, but childlike is very in in Japan...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

To be honest, it came to my mind that Yuzuru Hanyu didn't understand every word of the song from his 2021-2022 Short Program, Let Me Entertain You, either; the cheating part, I mean. It was refreshingly flirty and cheering-up though, what he wanted to be in those COVID-times.

 

[TallyT]

I think we need to wait and see with Mao, what they give her next year when (I think?) she goes senior.

 

[Remilia]

I mean, Kurakova has been doing that for years. I don't have a problem with juniors doing cutesy programs, but it does stick out more when you then have them ageing into seniors and doing them like Ami. Some could argue it stick out in a good way, while others a bad way. You could also argue something like Mone's last dance comes across as childish and cutesy, but I'd say that's just in part due to her looking younger than her actual age.
I do think that, for as much as everyone praises Mao, her actual performance ability is rather limited, but hey, there are plenty of skaters who that applies to

 

[elektra blue]

you know, me be me, i'm enjoying a lot all those spooky junior programs, i find them a good alternative to the usual cutesy girlie programs. all these wannabe little Addams girls at least bring something different to the table. also spooky never gets old if you want to be a princess, be a princess of darkness

 

[Skating91]

Well, they skated it without any sign of understanding, for which I am grateful, but it came over to me as just young teens soullessly aping what they see on musicvids (with bonus die away airs from Shcherbakova).

The don't need to know what the lyrics are. If they skated to Russian music do we presume the judges understand Russian?

In ice dance we have young teens "soullessly aping" (as you put it) 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's music etc. They weren't there there so how can they possibly perform with any authenticity?

 

[TallyT]

The don't need to know what the lyrics are. If they skated to Russian music do we presume the judges understand Russian?

In ice dance we have young teens "soullessly aping" (as you put it) 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's music etc. They weren't there there so how can they possibly perform with any authenticity?

I'm talking mainly about Hey Big Spender (from the POV of prostitutes trying to attract customers) and other highly, darkly sexualised songs, which is why I said that I was grateful. It was like small girls trying to act sexy at beauty pageants, and I find it icky just as when juniors in the ID also skated to songs that - at least for the younger ones, 13-14 - were unnaturally sexualised, I found it icky (except I'm Too Sexy, which every damn ID team that tried it just came over as scrubbed over with dishwashing liquid and very silly.) Hey, I'm getting old, I remember dancing/'miming' to that sort of pop song and at that age in my bedroom, but at least I had the brains/luck to not do it in public and filmed for posterity.

you know, me be me, i'm enjoying a lot all those spooky junior programs,

Oh me too, youngsters and spooky go together so well.

 

[moonvine]

I am not so sure it was about the programs at all. So, in that sense, to each their own. There are still juniors skating to Big Spender, Roxanne, Shéhérazade and Méditation de Thaïs, for instance. It's not about the programs they will present but where they are in their development to protect them physically and mentally. (but a rule cannot save them all...) I think that it's less harmful If a senior eligible skater skates to Itsy Bitsy Spider than the juniors skating about being prostitutes at the mercy of older men.

Every time I hear a junior or junior pair skating to “Hey Big Spender” I cringe and wonder where their parents are.
I watched some Intermediate meh skating at Sectionals and thought they had much more appropriate, fun and unique music than the juniors