Alissa Czisny plans to compete next season

[FlattFan]

hate to break it to you people
but rachel has been held up since 2009, her jumps should have been edge call and some ur wasn't. her programs was passable at best. never skated for it. her pcs was higher than should have been.

Which jumps? She's the only one of the US girl who has true flip and lutz.
Fact is fact.

 

[R.D.]

It may just be those two in your opinion, but no one has really delivered at Nationals to push one or both of those two off the World/Olympic team

This is true. It all comes back to whether Nationals should be the ONLY criteria for the World team...and whether this is perhaps an insufficient way to pick the team now that we have IJS and a deeper field. Perhaps picking the top 2 or 3 was fine under 6.0 when those were the only skaters with real rep among the international judges, but I think IJS has evened things out somewhat. It has changed things.

In the second point, where do you draw the line? If you want to institute post Nationals monitoring, then you have to set rules for it. What if there had been this monitoring and the rules were your monitoring session had to be "perfect".

No. Again, that is not the point. As I mentioned above, a big reason is to help prevent another "tibiagate".

Yes, we will need rules. But the way I'm thinking, it's not intended to be a "test skate". We are looking for EXTREME circumstances here, not just a simple off-night.

It should be emphasized, perhaps, that no method is perfect, or is going to be. But I think this is better than the status quo of simply picking top finishers at a competition that may or may not have gotten lucky one night. Especially these days with NJS where it is easier than ever to go up and down standings in a single event.

You may not be able to tell if someone is injured or they may get injured they day they are supposed to leave. Then what?

In the latter case there's not much one can do, unless it's not too late for the alternate to be called up. But that's ALWAYS an issue, no? Such a possibility ALWAYS exists.

A solution (a potentially costly one, however) would be to bring the 1st alternate along with the team for circumstances like that. But I wouldn't recommend that, personally.

 

[Jammers]

hate to break it to you people

but rachel has been held up since 2009, her jumps should have been edge call and some ur wasn't. her programs was passable at best. never skated for it. her pcs was higher than should have been.

mirai held up since frank even before next best thing since slice bread due to jnational win, over marked senior national win next year.
all times pc scores held up despite screw ups

alissa been held up since 2006 group left. pc wise. whenever u.s. has skaters especially women they want. they hold them up pc wise overlook, small misteps, urs edge call, speed etc. everyone has been held up but one.

everyone complained about zhangs lack of speed but didn't notice mirai, ashley, rachels and alissa's and or screwups , same type of skating
why didn't want zhang even though fight. had mentality. none of above ladies from 2008-2011 showed any kind of mental attitude.

they did it when they wanted to not before, during and after. all stated i should have been held up due to national champ, olymp, or this and that person is behind me. not to mention the so-called mentoring by the olympic gold medalist. did any of them pick zhang-no one wanted her, all that michelle was behind mentoring-wasn't . who mentored coached and helped all about skaters. kristi, brian, dorothy. i applaud tara for taking and answering question approach to ashley-which is what they should do ask question and then answer anything else is coaching teaching how to do spins, showing how to do jumps, spins.
did it help them no-it hurt them why-no they think we are on the inside and can skate anyway we want and get away with it. which is what happened .
the ladies are good enough but they have to apply themselves at all times and all competitions not when we want to , becuase it comes out wonky looking and not applying your best-just skating.
until this year at nationals that is what happened. yes 2010 olympic year.
all of them could have finished in 5-10 spot if wanted to and applied themselves-mentally whether they wanted to or not is another sotry.
only zhang would have tried. rachel 3 times none applied

most are waiting to give all to olympics how can they know all if don't apply themselves to try harder at each competition-they leave it on the floor in practice or don't know the have it in the first place.

you have to keep pushing yourselve to know what you are really capable of doing. you dont keep pushing-you plateau and then you arent as good as you think or wonder what happen.

ashley i am taking a wait and see approach as to next year whether she can handle it mentally or not. she did a good job this year.

but that is the problem, mirai, rachel, alissa done in one year-not two years straight. we havent had that since michelle/sasha, i would hadd kimmie in it.
the ladies have a habit not skating as wwell as they should . their mindset isnt there -only zhang but than they helped deflate it in prevboius 2 season.

Zhang wasn't held up because she had more serious issues then most of the skaters that you mentioned. Slow and bad technique on her jumps which was glaring was why Caroline dropped in the standings. Rachael was more consistent Mirai had better all around skills and so did Ashley. And the judges always loved Alissa.

 

[mskater93]

In the latter case there's not much one can do, unless it's not too late for the alternate to be called up. But that's ALWAYS an issue, no? Such a possibility ALWAYS exists.

A solution (a potentially costly one, however) would be to bring the 1st alternate along with the team for circumstances like that. But I wouldn't recommend that, personally.

In 2012, if you factored in other events, Czsiny STILL would have been the second choice based on scores she had put up. I don't think there would be anyway around that one in any method or universe. She was the highest finisher at the previous World's, made the GPF (the only American) and seemed to be recovering from her injury at the GPF. Who would have been your second choice?

If you read between the lines on Flatt's injury last year, the pain and inability to skate to her potential really manifested the week before Worlds when it was too late for the alternate to get a Visa, etc. This would be your situation where you really couldn't do anything about it. She would have "passed" your test skate/monitoring that you are proposing but then later had an injury.

USFS is in enough financial doodoo where your solution isn't practical to bring the 1st alternate along. I say this based on the big push at Governing Council last year to raise dues to the members through the clubs ($10 increase per skater) and through individual membership (which I think went up $50). Also, if a skater is in training mode, where are they going to train? Can't on the practice ice because they aren't entered in the event, so now what?

 

[Nigel]

Oh, that year. My bad.
Still don't see her winning.

SP, 2A looked URed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWQXLQDv1OE

LP, stumbled a bit on the 3loop-2loop combo. URed, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShGt3JB_uu0

Rachael beat her on TES. They both got the same on PCS, I believe.

Looked up results from the LP:
1 Rachael Flatt
Broadmoor SC 125.82 69.38 56.44 7.00 6.82 7.18 7.14 7.14 0.00
2 Ashley Wagner
Washington FSC 123.41 67.86 55.55 7.04 6.57 7.11 6.96 7.04 0.00
3 Mirai Nagasu
Pasadena FSC 120.18 63.35 57.83 7.29 7.00 7.18 7.29 7.39 1.00

With overall results:
FPl. Name Points SP FS
1 Mirai Nagasu
Pasadena FSC 190.41 1 3
2 Rachael Flatt
Broadmoor SC 188.73 3 1
3 Ashley Wagner
Washington FSC 188.56 2 2

 

[R.D.]

In 2012, if you factored in other events, Czsiny STILL would have been the second choice based on scores she had put up. I don't think there would be anyway around that one in any method or universe. She was the highest finisher at the previous World's, made the GPF (the only American) and seemed to be recovering from her injury at the GPF. Who would have been your second choice?

Like I said in an earlier post, I had no problem with the initial choice of Czisny for the team. I would have waited until after 4CC to name the team though (ESPECIALLY considering 4CC was in the US). But something may have gone wrong in the 2 months prior to Worlds (what was it?). At least if she was being monitored, the federation could know what was up.

If you read between the lines on Flatt's injury last year, the pain and inability to skate to her potential really manifested the week before Worlds when it was too late for the alternate to get a Visa, etc. This would be your situation where you really couldn't do anything about it. She would have "passed" your test skate/monitoring that you are proposing but then later had an injury.

My take is that if she REALLY couldn't do anything about it, USFS wouldn't have bothered to fine her. That tells me that at least they wanted to know about it (she was required to disclose, wasn't she?). And what I mean is that it would be a regular, all-day thing, the last one perhaps being a few days prior to the event. It's not necessarily a given that it wouldn't have been caught then unless it was something that suddenly blew up on her the day before she left- and from what I've been reading, that wasn't the case.

USFS is in enough financial doodoo where your solution isn't practical to bring the 1st alternate along. I say this based on the big push at Governing Council last year to raise dues to the members through the clubs ($10 increase per skater) and through individual membership (which I think went up $50).

Exactly, it's not practical. Which is exactly why I said I wouldn't recommend it.

(although Czisny somehow made her way to 4CCs...I know she wasn't an alternate, but...)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It might be tough for the US to have great ladies going forward. Skating is for those whose families are relatively well-off and can not only afford lessons but also distractions like iPhones, iPads, laptops, etc. It saddens me a bit that so many kids in the US idolize people Paris Hilton, Jessica Simpson, Snookie, and Kim Kardashian. Who wants to be stuck in a cold ice rink all day working hard when she sees all these half-brains getting everything in life?

 

[Olympia]

Oh, dear, I fear you're right. It's such a bad moment for role models for girls.

There may be another reason, though, in the opposite direction. These days, skating isn't the only sport girls can excel in, and maybe some kids that would have gone into skating are training in some other sport that's less greedy in terms of time and devotion. These days, you can get to the Olympics in all sorts of other ways, and there's no puberty monster to be afraid of in those sports.

 

[mskater93]

Like I said in an earlier post, I had no problem with the initial choice of Czisny for the team. I would have waited until after 4CC to name the team though (ESPECIALLY considering 4CC was in the US). But something may have gone wrong in the 2 months prior to Worlds (what was it?). At least if she was being monitored, the federation could know what was up.



My take is that if she REALLY couldn't do anything about it, USFS wouldn't have bothered to fine her. That tells me that at least they wanted to know about it (she was required to disclose, wasn't she?). And what I mean is that it would be a regular, all-day thing, the last one perhaps being a few days prior to the event. It's not necessarily a given that it wouldn't have been caught then unless it was something that suddenly blew up on her the day before she left- and from what I've been reading, that wasn't the case.



Exactly, it's not practical. Which is exactly why I said I wouldn't recommend it.

(although Czisny somehow made her way to 4CCs...I know she wasn't an alternate, but...)

I think Flatt got caught in that it wasn't disclosed. She HAD been feeling some pain, but likely thought it was related to her tendonitis issues (her boots and how she ties her skates was causing it off and on) she'd been having (she mentioned that around GPF) until the pain got much worse right before she left. Once it was diagnosed (I believe it was the Friday before leaving according to an article I read about it), it was too late to do anything, but it was still her responsibility to say something about it...

As for Czsiny, I suspect something happened in her personal life that caused distraction right around the time of CC and she was unable to recover. What would you have done if she hadn't done CC and had managed to pull herself together for her monitoring session "enough". Then that begs the question, what's "enough" in the monitoring session(s) you propose? Who's going to do the monitoring?

She was skating on FS sessions at Broadmoor, NOT on practice sessions...It just so happened that regular FS sessions were going on there on the other rink, not in the arena or practice rink.

As for waiting until 4C is over, why? USFS is trying to spread the "wealth" of championship events around a bit and there's been discussion that it's too close to Nationals for skaters to peak there or skaters that DO peak there, didn't at Nationals (think Nagasu in 2011).

The problem with the US ladies is more bredth of competition (there's a lot more skaters who can do the SAME elements) but no real leader over the last several years (one who's going to have an "off night" for her and still end up on the podium) to take the pressure off the other team member(s). Looking at the Ladies since Cohen and Meissner hung up their skates:
Flatt has done fairly well with the talent she has, but she's on par more with Nikodinov/Kirk in terms of where she's going to top out at international championships (not going to land on the podium unless it's a really, really badly skated event, sorry, Flattfan, but that's just how she's received), but you need a steady Eddie who can typically land in the middle of the top 10 if you have another who just can kill it.
Czsiny is wildly inconsistent in her ability to focus and could end up on the podium or not making the LP. You never know which one will show up, either, although at high pressure events, you are more likely to get the "not make the LP" version.
Nagasu hasn't proved she "wants" it by skating mistake-filled programs at Nationals and sleep walking through programs. She needs some (personal) maturity in taking control of her skating and work ethic (from most accounts) if she's going to fullfill her potential.
Wagner, until this year, wanted it too much and killed her SP repeatedly at Nationals and in the position in the 3-6 range at Nationals, hasn't gotten enough exposure, backing, or notice from USFS and internationally. I think Mr. Nicks has done a tremendous job with her from a mental preparation aspect this season and I am most curious to see where she goes from 4th at Worlds.
Zhang has had technique issues that got worse and worse as she grew from being a twinkie which she is just starting to fix. She is probably the most mentally tough of the American ladies.
Gao still isn't "there" yet although she has some good technical tricks. She's what we'd call an "element" skater - some nice elements, but can't string them together in a program
Zawadski is only a second year Senior and can't get through a LP clean - yet - and needs some work on the SS/speed/presentation side

So, what do you do?

 

[Nigel]

I think Flatt got caught in that it wasn't disclosed. She HAD been feeling some pain, but likely thought it was related to her tendonitis issues (her boots and how she ties her skates was causing it off and on) she'd been having (she mentioned that around GPF) until the pain got much worse right before she left. Once it was diagnosed (I believe it was the Friday before leaving according to an article I read about it), it was too late to do anything, but it was still her responsibility to say something about it...

As for Czsiny, I suspect something happened in her personal life that caused distraction right around the time of CC and she was unable to recover. What would you have done if she hadn't done CC and had managed to pull herself together for her monitoring session "enough". Then that begs the question, what's "enough" in the monitoring session(s) you propose? Who's going to do the monitoring?

She was skating on FS sessions at Broadmoor, NOT on practice sessions...It just so happened that regular FS sessions were going on there on the other rink, not in the arena or practice rink.

Alissa: She was skating at the World Arena/Ice Hall during 4CC. I can't imagine that Mitch Moyer (Sr Dir of Athlete High Performance) or Kathy Casey(Dir of Athlete Performance) did not walk over to watch some of Alissa's practices during the 4CC event. USFS personnel would have been in the building, so I just can't imagine that there was not some form of monitoring going on at that point, no matter how informal it was. Wasn't Jeremy there as well training? So, I just can't imagine that USFS did not watch them practice, with The Hague coming up shortly thereafter.

Flatt mentioned on her twitter or FB, can't remember which, or perhaps it was interview with espnW prior to US Nationals that she had worked with Riedell in late December after going through multiple pairs of boots in the last two seasons, after visiting the Steadman Clinic in Vail over her holiday break to get some feedback on the chronic pain in her feet. Riedell designed a new boot for her, based on recommendations from Steadman staff, and Flatt said that she was into those newly designed boots, with no pain, when she got back to school in January (so, maybe 2 1/2 weeks before US Nationals). Makes me wonder if the chronic pain/tendonitis that she had been dealing with for two seasons could have been resolved sooner with new design in her boots. Also makes me wonder how many other (elite) skaters deal with similar issues, and why doesn't USFS high performance and sports med group step up to the plate and help these athletes. Alissa, for all we know, may fall into that category as well...if there is a chronic or reoccuring issue with her training. JMO.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't think there is any physical problem with Alissa. She has given no indication that she has any problems. Can we accept maybe she just isn't a good competitor? She usually falls once or twice. When she does we attribute that to her just being Alissa. Now when she falls five times there must be some physical (or perhaps personal) issue. Someone who regularly falls in competition is fully capable of a meltdown in pressure situations.

 

[R.D.]

As for Czsiny, I suspect something happened in her personal life that caused distraction right around the time of CC and she was unable to recover. What would you have done if she hadn't done CC and had managed to pull herself together for her monitoring session "enough".

Like I said earlier, no system is going to be perfect. The scenario you described would make it seem as if it was simply a "by chance" meltdown she had, in which case there's nothing to be done. That's obviously a limitation- you can't protect against "by chance" meltdowns (no system can do that). However, the poor finish does enter the books and once next season rolls around, although we start over again, it is noted.

Look at what Russia did with Ksenia Makarova, having her do a test skate/event and evaluating her and Shelepen (the other candidate) to ensure they were sending their strongest team. Of course, Makarova was shaky in the FS all season (and that wasn't really going to change at Worlds), but Shelepen had a rough SP. Neither skater was going to blow the roof off the arena. The Russian Fed went with Makarova (better to put yourself in position with good SP), and while it was no surprise that she gave way in the freeskate, she still hung on to a top 10 finish.

Then that begs the question, what's "enough" in the monitoring session(s) you propose? Who's going to do the monitoring?

That would indicate that it is set up to be a test skate. I say it is NOT intended to be that.

There MUST be folks at USFS responsible for performance of athletes. Isn't there a director of high performance? Probably would want team doctors in the event of injuries.

Flatt has done fairly well with the talent she has, but she's on par more with Nikodinov/Kirk in terms of where she's going to top out at international championships

Oh, I'd give her more credit than that. Kirk was never top 10 at worlds. Of course, Flatt was no Meissner or Cohen, but I liken her more to Em Hughes. She was actually a good bet for the top 10 until after the Olympics. I think she peaked as a competitor that season.

Czsiny is wildly inconsistent in her ability to focus and could end up on the podium or not making the LP. You never know which one will show up, either, although at high pressure events, you are more likely to get the "not make the LP" version.
Nagasu hasn't proved she "wants" it by skating mistake-filled programs at Nationals and sleep walking through programs. She needs some (personal) maturity in taking control of her skating and work ethic (from most accounts) if she's going to fullfill her potential.
Wagner, until this year, wanted it too much and killed her SP repeatedly at Nationals and in the position in the 3-6 range at Nationals, hasn't gotten enough exposure, backing, or notice from USFS and internationally. I think Mr. Nicks has done a tremendous job with her from a mental preparation aspect this season and I am most curious to see where she goes from 4th at Worlds.
Zhang has had technique issues that got worse and worse as she grew from being a twinkie which she is just starting to fix. She is probably the most mentally tough of the American ladies.
Gao still isn't "there" yet although she has some good technical tricks. She's what we'd call an "element" skater - some nice elements, but can't string them together in a program
Zawadski is only a second year Senior and can't get through a LP clean - yet - and needs some work on the SS/speed/presentation side

So, what do you do?

First off, perhaps I should start a new thread to ask the question, What is POTENTIAL? Probably the most overused, useless word used by skating fans, and I'm not even excluding myself as I might have used the term in the past.

As to what you do, well, it's useless to get mired in the trap of what could be. You look at cold, hard numbers, placements and trends as they tell the story. Wagner: 4th and 3rd in her GP events. Not spectacular but not horrible. Comes back to win Nationals. She's earned her trip. Czisny: 5th at worlds last year, 1st and 3rd on the GP, qualifies for GPF. Disastrous finish there, 5th out of 5 skaters. Shaky at Nationals, finishing 2nd but in notably better form than GPF. Upward trend. Zawadzki: Unimpressive GP, strong SP at Nationals, mediocre LP to finish 3rd. Upward trend. Zhang: Strongest 2 skates she's had since 2009. Upward trend.

One of two things can be done: send Czisny based on her season history and current upward trend, or make sure Czisny is really back in form by having her skate off at 4CC with Zawadzki and/or Zhang. Again I had no problem with her initial selection. It's what happened afterward where questions need to be asked.

 

[mskater93]

If Czsiny hadn't skated CC, it would have appeared as a "random meltdown". If you can't guard against that, then chalk up her Worlds appearance this year as a random meltdown (typically she has meltdown-good skate-meltdown as a pattern when she has meltdowns, so USFS may have felt that she was due for a good skate since she'd had a recent meltdown).

Abbott did not JUMP while they were in CS. He was off jumping for the two weeks after Nationals and into 4CC week due to hip and back soreness and was working on the in betweens and some spins while there. Alissa may have been taking it easy as well while they were there - only working on polishing the in betweens or the elements in isolation which means if anyone was trolling around, they would have seen a skater getting ready to gear training back up after backing away after Nationals. It's common.

If you forced a "skate off" at 4CC, Czsiny would likely have complained that she wasn't really ready to compete since it was only two weeks after Nats like she did the year before when she was the lowest finisher of the American ladies.

There are many skaters who have boot issues. Some of the more famous ones with known issues beyond Flatt: boot problems forced Goebel's retirement. Czsiny had issues for the longest time when she was younger and so was in Jackson hinge boots until they stopped making them due to issues she had. Not sure what she's in now, they look like SP Teri's, probably. Abbott's 2011 lost season was due to boot problems. Kwan was wearing Reidells for a season when they were her sponsor, but they didn't work for her and caused her some pain so she went back to her tried and true boot brand. Custom boots are hand made and so even making them to the same specifications as the "last pair" isn't perfect - there's a lot of variation because it's craft not production that can make a pair of boots hurt when the previous pair with the same specifications and no changes to the skater's feet.

As for not sending Czsiny, it's hindsight now. Looking at it after Nationals, she looked like the best bet for a top 5 finish based on her skating like "she always does" (ie a couple mistakes). Also, you can't wait too long to make your decision because skaters need to get planning on their training....

 

[R.D.]

If Czsiny hadn't skated CC, it would have appeared as a "random meltdown". If you can't guard against that, then chalk up her Worlds appearance this year as a random meltdown (typically she has meltdown-good skate-meltdown as a pattern when she has meltdowns, so USFS may have felt that she was due for a good skate since she'd had a recent meltdown).

As fans, we don't know that. But did USFS know? Did Team Czisny know? The reaction of her coaches after the freeskate was rather curious to say the least...as if they saw it coming this whole time.

I'm not ready to let them off the hook. Next season, if Czisny is in contention, this should be kept in mind. Like Flatt last year, no?

If you forced a "skate off" at 4CC, Czsiny would likely have complained that she wasn't really ready to compete since it was only two weeks after Nats like she did the year before when she was the lowest finisher of the American ladies.

And this year, she complained about NOT getting 4CC. What do you do?

 

[tulosai]

As fans, we don't know that. But did USFS know? Did Team Czisny know? The reaction of her coaches after the freeskate was rather curious to say the least...as if they saw it coming this whole time.

I'm not ready to let them off the hook. Next season, if Czisny is in contention, this should be kept in mind. Like Flatt last year, no?

And this year, she complained about NOT getting 4CC. What do you do?

I actually wonder if you (or someone else) could explain to me why a lot of people here seem to think he coaches should have looked/acted more surprised. Despite not knowing what happened, most if not all of us weren't really surprised. Why do we think (even if they did NOT know what was going on like we didn't) that Jason and Yuka should have acted differently.

Also,maybe they just didn't want to be perceived by Alissa as 'confronting' her when she clearly was already devastated. Maybe they just did not know what to say. I am genuinely confused about why people think their reaction was odd.

 

[Tonichelle]

After her meltdown in the short, and their knowing her personality/response to pressure better than anyone else, they probably did expect her meltdown in the long... but after the SP what can they do? pull out? that doesn't help anybody.

 

[chuckm]

After falling twice in the SP, Alissa could have withdrawn and spared herself the embarrassment of the 5-fall FS. The US would still have kept two spots and the lower-ranked US skater next year would still have to do the QR.

Since that performance, ISU judges may start to hedge on the high PCS scores they'd been giving Alissa, much as they've done with Cynthia Phaneuf.

 

[Mathman]

After falling twice in the SP, Alissa could have withdrawn and spared herself the embarrassment of the 5-fall FS.

She probably did not expect to fall five times in the long program and hoped to do better.

 

[mskater93]

I think they weren't suprised because her practices AT Worlds were really BAD supposedly.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

She probably did not expect to fall five times in the long program and hoped to do better.

I agree. In fairness, I'm sure they thought her placement could only improve from what she did in the SP.