Am I overbooted?

[fliptzies]

Hi, 109 lbs , 4'11" female. Currently, I'm working on axels and beginning double sal and 2toe , only skating 2-3 days a week, about 2 hours each time. Working on Bronze MITF. Previously, I had had Jackson Elles for about a year and a half, and I recently got new Jackson Premiere 2800 with the Aspire XP blade. My old Elles felt really comfortable, although I suppose that has to be a given considering the amount of time I had them. The foot shape and everything was great, although my ankles were starting to hurt. My new Premieres feel fine off the ice, just standing, however after I get on, even after many punchings, they still seem to be tight. I've had them for about 2 weeks now. It doesn't bother me too much, but I was wondering if the tightness has to do with the stiffness? I am pretty sure there is about 30 difference between the stiffness of the Elle and Premiere. Also wondering whether or not I've overbooted, I used to have a gorgeous hydroblade and now I can't get all the way down. Pretty frustrating. It feel easier to get nice, deep, crunchy edges, however bending my ankle and knees is frustrating at times.The reason I chose Premiere was because I was promised that they weren't too big of a step up from Freestyles, the other one recommended. The Premieres were about $200 more than the Freestyles, so I chose them based on the promise of being able to have them for an extra year longer, but now I'm hesitant on whether I should've have gotten the Freestyles. Just wanted to get some advice on this matter, better sooner than later. Sorry if I'm not explaining this well or am missing some information. Thanks!

( also as a sidenote - I wanted to compare prices from the official Jackson website but it seems they have been out of stock for a while, they aren't discontinued are they? Just want to make sure I wasn't sold some discontinued stock the fitter needed to get rid of )

 

[IceM]

Hi, 109 lbs , 4'11" female. Currently, I'm working on axels and beginning double sal and 2toe , only skating 2-3 days a week, about 2 hours each time. Working on Bronze MITF. Previously, I had had Jackson Elles for about a year and a half, and I recently got new Jackson Premiere 2800 with the Aspire XP blade. My old Elles felt really comfortable, although I suppose that has to be a given considering the amount of time I had them. The foot shape and everything was great, although my ankles were starting to hurt. My new Premieres feel fine off the ice, just standing, however after I get on, even after many punchings, they still seem to be tight. I've had them for about 2 weeks now. It doesn't bother me too much, but I was wondering if the tightness has to do with the stiffness? I am pretty sure there is about 30 difference between the stiffness of the Elle and Premiere. Also wondering whether or not I've overbooted, I used to have a gorgeous hydroblade and now I can't get all the way down. Pretty frustrating. It feel easier to get nice, deep, crunchy edges, however bending my ankle and knees is frustrating at times.The reason I chose Premiere was because I was promised that they weren't too big of a step up from Freestyles, the other one recommended. The Premieres were about $200 more than the Freestyles, so I chose them based on the promise of being able to have them for an extra year longer, but now I'm hesitant on whether I should've have gotten the Freestyles. Just wanted to get some advice on this matter, better sooner than later. Sorry if I'm not explaining this well or am missing some information. Thanks!

( also as a sidenote - I wanted to compare prices from the official Jackson website but it seems they have been out of stock for a while, they aren't discontinued are they? Just want to make sure I wasn't sold some discontinued stock the fitter needed to get rid of )

Assuming you fit the boot, and have had them for a couple of weeks just, I wouldn't fret too much. You're not overbooted per say, but they are properly stiff boots given your stats, so it'll take some time to break them in. And stiffer boots are harder on the feet in general. They will surely get you through doubles, but you should probably consider a blade upgrade as well, when that time comes.

As for the sidenote, they seem to be discontinued, but I don't know about Jackson boots too much.

 

[tstop4me]

( also as a sidenote - I wanted to compare prices from the official Jackson website but it seems they have been out of stock for a while, they aren't discontinued are they? Just want to make sure I wasn't sold some discontinued stock the fitter needed to get rid of )

The Premiere 2800 (microfiber uppers, weird Premiere pattern 5 offset rows of hooks) was recently discontinued. The current model on the jacksonultima website is the Premiere 2850 (return to leather uppers, now with 4 standard straight rows of hooks).

 

[fliptzies]

Assuming you fit the boot, and have had them for a couple of weeks just, I wouldn't fret too much. You're not overbooted per say, but they are properly stiff boots given your stats, so it'll take some time to break them in. And stiffer boots are harder on the feet in general. They will surely get you through doubles, but you should probably consider a blade upgrade as well, when that time comes.

As for the sidenote, they seem to be discontinued, but I don't know about Jackson boots too much.

Thanks! I've been only tying the first 4 hooks up, and slightly loosely, which is what the fitter recommended, not sure if that's for the break-in or stiffness, but I'd guess that it helps with both? As for the blade, would CoroAce or Matrix Supreme be what I get? I'm not in a rush for new blades, but I personally just like having a good gauge and knowledge about what I will be most likely purchasing.

 

[IceM]

Thanks! I've been only tying the first 4 hooks up, and slightly loosely, which is what the fitter recommended, not sure if that's for the break-in or stiffness, but I'd guess that it helps with both? As for the blade, would CoroAce or Matrix Supreme be what I get? I'm not in a rush for new blades, but I personally just like having a good gauge and knowledge about what I will be most likely purchasing.

Yeah, that's a pretty common way people deal with break in, at least the first few hours, although you should probably be lacing them all the way up by now, slightly loosely if needed at the top. And if you do so, it's better to lace at least couple of the first hooks over and under, so they lock in place better. Otherwise the laces just loosen all the way down when you kneebend.

As to the blade, it depends how far you get on the blades you have now, and if you have difficulty learning all the turns and proper spins. CA or Legacy 7 might help with those, although I've also met beginner/intermediate skaters who prefer the flatter rocker of the more advanced blades, and do well on those, including Supremes. So, keeping that in mind, it's up to you.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks! I've been only tying the first 4 hooks up, and slightly loosely, which is what the fitter recommended, not sure if that's for the break-in or stiffness, but I'd guess that it helps with both? As for the blade, would CoroAce or Matrix Supreme be what I get? I'm not in a rush for new blades, but I personally just like having a good gauge and knowledge about what I will be most likely purchasing.

Gold Seal or Gold Star should fix you for spins, there's a little getting used to them period, but after that you should be fine. I would not go lower in blades, especially doing doubles at this point. Good luck!

 

[fliptzies]

The Premiere 2800 (microfiber uppers, weird Premiere pattern 5 offset rows of hooks) was recently discontinued. The current model on the jacksonultima website is the Premiere 2850 (return to leather uppers, now with 4 standard straight rows of hooks).

Thanks, I mean, so far, there aren't any really big issues with them, just normal ones, e.g. needing punchouts, but I don't know, there has to be a reason they were discontinued right? Personally I do prefer the straight rows, however I do recall seeing that it helps with security and stability?

 

[fliptzies]

Yeah, that's a pretty common way people deal with break in, at least the first few hours, although you should probably be lacing them all the way up by now, slightly loosely if needed at the top. And if you do so, it's better to lace at least couple of the first hooks over and under, so they lock in place better. Otherwise the laces just loosen all the way down when you kneebend.

As to the blade, it depends how far you get on the blades you have now, and if you have difficulty learning all the turns and proper spins. CA or Legacy 7 might help with those, although I've also met beginner/intermediate skaters who prefer the flatter rocker of the more advanced blades, and do well on those, including Supremes. So, keeping that in mind, it's up to you.

Yeah, I mean I just want these to last me through this season, I am considering getting new blades in the off, it just comforts me more knowing I have a month or two to get used to new blades, also of course, they are a big investment...

Of course the only sport I truly enjoy is one of the most expensive

 

[fliptzies]

Gold Seal or Gold Star should fix you for spins, there's a little getting used to them period, but after that you should be fine. I would not go lower in blades, especially doing doubles at this point. Good luck!

Thanks! Also - a question just out of curiosity, I noticed on the MK website they have different blade types ( Parabolic, Taper ), can you really feel a difference between them? And is there any reason why they can't just combine both features? Do they affect each other?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks! Also - a question just out of curiosity, I noticed on the MK website they have different blade types ( Parabolic, Taper ), can you really feel a difference between them? And is there any reason why they can't just combine both features? Do they affect each other?

You're welcome. You can feel a difference and unless you are very advanced, you really don't need anything but the regular one.

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks, I mean, so far, there aren't any really big issues with them, just normal ones, e.g. needing punchouts, but I don't know, there has to be a reason they were discontinued right? Personally I do prefer the straight rows, however I do recall seeing that it helps with security and stability?

* Marketing managers live in a world of their own. As I mentioned above, two of the primary changes to the new Premiere 2850 are the return to leather uppers and a redesign of the hook pattern.

* Look at the official Jackson YouTube launch videos for the Premiere 2800 (old) and Premiere 2850 (new) for marketing spin.

* With respect to the material for the uppers, here's what Jackson said when they launched the 2800 (which changed the uppers from previous leather to synthetic microfiber): “The exterior of the boot has been upgraded to durable microfiber, which is stronger than leather and lighter weight."

Now here's what Jackson is saying as they launch the 2850: "The relaunched Premiere blends traditional materials with modern innovations into a comfortable responsive boot. The Premiere features a genuine leather upper reinforced with advanced heat moldable Surlyn." Which really doesn't say much.

But the Jackson website listing for the 2850 states: “Durable leather upper has remarkable flexibility, versatility, and strength.” And the Jackson YouTube launch video for the new Debut 2550 (which also is changing from microfiber to leather uppers) has this further explanation why they are switching to leather: "Taking feedback from athletes and skate techs around the world, Jackson Ultima is relaunching the Debut boot. The new and improved Debut features a better fit from its leather constructed upper combining the best of traditional materials with heat moldable Surlyn. … Leather remains the gold standard for skaters delivering the ideal level of flex supporting you in low spins, twizzles, and jumps."

* With respect to the hooks, here's what Jackson said when they launched the 2800: “Offset hooks allow skaters to personalize their lacing for the most stability and security around the ankle area.” Here's what they are saying as they launch the 2850: "Returning to a four hook vertical lacing design gives you consistent ankle support and foot comfort."

Personally, I've never understood the offset 5-row hook pattern. For at least the past 5 (maybe 10?) years, Jackson competitive freestyle boots below the Premiere had the straight 4-row hook pattern, as did the Jackson competitive freestyle boots above the Premiere. So why the offset 5-row hook pattern just for this one intermediate model?

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks! Also - a question just out of curiosity, I noticed on the MK website they have different blade types ( Parabolic, Taper ), can you really feel a difference between them? And is there any reason why they can't just combine both features? Do they affect each other?

Not sure whether MK and JW currently offer parabolic tapered blades. At one time they were available on special order. But note the geometry (and hence configuration of edge angles) of a parabolic tapered blade does not simply simultaneously offer both the advantages of parabolic and the advantages of tapered geometries (which is what you seem to be implying); it should be considered a distinct geometry of its own. Here's some of my previous posts addressing parabolic and tapered geometries.

Not sure what you mean by effective contact surface in this instance. But I view the scenario in terms on the included edge angles. Think of the inside skate edge and the outside skate edge in terms of the edge of a knife. Each skate edge is defined by the intersection of two surfaces: one surface is the curved hollow, the other surface is the flat exterior surface of the skate blade (outside or inside exterior surface). The included angle at the intersection defines how sharp the skate edge is. Just as in a knife blade, the smaller the included angle, the sharper the skate edge. For a fixed value of the ROH, the included angle varies with the thickness of the skate blade: the thicker the blade, the smaller the included angle and the sharper the skate edge.

In a tapered skate blade, the thickness is greatest near the picks, and decreases progressively towards the heel; therefore, the skate edges are sharpest near the front of the blade, and gets progressively less sharp towards the rear of the blade. This provides extra bite for maneuvers (such as turns and entrances to spins) that use the front of the blade; and extra glide for maneuvers that use the middle and rear of the blade.

For a parabolic blade, the blade is thicker near the pick and heel, and thinner near the middle. This provides a more longitudinally symmetric blade: more bite towards the front and heel; and extra glide near the middle.

I'll try to explain as best as I can using keyboard characters, in lieu of a drawing. Suppose you're holding one skate in front of you, edges facing you, vertically oriented with picks on the top, heel on the bottom. Imagine the edges projected onto a plane, such as a flat screen (as if you were viewing them on a camera LCD screen).

* With parallel edges, the outside and inside edges are configured as such: ||. The edges are straight lines, and the lines are parallel. The thickness of the blade (transverse distance measured between the outside and inside edges) is nominally constant along the length of the blade.

* With tapered edges, the outside and inside edges are configured as such: \ / (greatly exaggerated). The edges are straight lines, but the lines are not parallel, The thickness of the blade progressively decreases from near the picks (thickest) to the heel (thinnest).

* With parabolic edges, the outside and inside edges are configured as such: ) ( (greatly exaggerated). The edges are concave curves. The blades are thicker near the picks and the heel and thinner near the middle.

 

[IceM]

Thanks! Also - a question just out of curiosity, I noticed on the MK website they have different blade types ( Parabolic, Taper ), can you really feel a difference between them? And is there any reason why they can't just combine both features? Do they affect each other?

The marketing information on the websites are generally quite messy. Typically, it's either or (tapered or parabolic). Regular MK Pros are neither (parallel), Gold Stars are typically tapered, as are Gold Seals. If you go for Gold Stars/Gold Seals, just go for the tapered ones. They are the standard. It's not a big deal. There's a subtle difference, but some of it might also be the geometry being a pita to sharpen, causing uneven edges and whatnot. So, just go with the standard (tapered).

 

[tstop4me]

Currently, I'm working on axels and beginning double sal and 2toe , only skating 2-3 days a week, about 2 hours each time. Working on Bronze MITF. Previously, I had had Jackson Elles for about a year and a half, and I recently got new Jackson Premiere 2800 with the Aspire XP blade.

Just curious. At your level of skating, neither your coach nor your fitter recommended that you upgrade your blade (to something higher than Aspire XP) when you upgraded your boot?

 

[fliptzies]

Just curious. At your level of skating, neither your coach nor your fitter recommended that you upgrade your blade (to something higher than Aspire XP) when you upgraded your boot?

No, I was actually recommended the Freestyles at first, so I think we all just took it as a given that I would continue with the blade if that makes sense? I mean so far the blades are doing fine for me so I haven't given it much thought...