Am I too heavy for Jackson Freestyles?

[Query]

In another thread
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/are-my-boots-broken-down.101143
Ic3Rabbit told the o.p. (a 64 kg female working on backspin and backflip) that Jackson Freestyles were inadequate for her because of her weight.

I am a 5'3.5" (162.3 cm), 140 pounds (63.5 kg) (unclothed, in morning, after voiding, to get reliable stats; otherwise my weight varies) male.

Am I too heavy for Freestyles too?

But I don't do any jumps over 1/2 rotation, or anything else fancy, and am too old to develop more advanced skills. I never got beyond Preliminary and (untested) Pre-Bronze ice dance, working now on basic USFS "Skating Skills", stroking, 3-turns, and very easy spins. I still do moderately deep edges, but I'm not strong enough to get down low in my knees, and may never recover my strength enough to do so.

The Freestyles appeal to me because I found a used pair fits me fairly well, which I have never encountered before because of my wide toes and narrow heels - though my small foot size - about men's size 6 or women's 7.5 in Jacksons - makes it impossible to find stock figure skating boots in stores that comes anywhere close to fitting. (The freestyles that fit are 7.5 wide womens, but I'm not sure how much being used has altered the shape.) Tight toe fit on my old Klingbeil Dance boots (which were grossly misfit by the wrong fitter despite being full custom) may have caused my metatarsal bone spurs (uncertain), so I view fit as extremely important. The uppers were slightly high volume for me, and the heels slightly too wide - but I added stuff inside to make them fit, and maybe that was because they were used and presumably heat or use molded to fit someone else.

The used pair won't last me long - less than half as stiff as new Freestyles, and they are starting to form creases despite my best efforts at filling space, but had planned to order new ones to replace them. But they are still a stiffer than my broken down Klingbeils.

One thing that might impact structural integrity - I plan to cut down or remove the heels, which are uncomfortably high for me, which was also true of my older boots. (Jackson's customer service has warned me that modification would void the warranty, and also that the heel has a hollow space inside, which I might have to partly fill.) So maybe the heels are structurally important, or the change in orientation would change stress directions beyond design limits. (Jackson rapid customs can have slightly shaved down heels, but not enough.) I plan to try that first on the used boots. I'm not sure, but the heel might just be held on by a bolt.

Would higher level Jackson boots fit the same? Could I safely use a somewhat higher level boot at my very basic level, or would that cause problems?

I have briefly tried a few other boots, including something by Risports (which fit surprisingly well, but broke down in a month, because they were single layer leather boots) and Graf Edmonton Specials, which I found awkward and heavy - though that is partly because they were too big. (I stuffed stuff inside and modified the insoles to make them fit, which I've had a lot of experience doing on many types of shoe and boot because of my wide toes and narrow heels, but that couldn't fix the stiffness or weight, or the fact that the size wouldn't let me bring my feet together as close as I had been taught. In any event, if they weren't oversized, the toes would have been too narrow.) But the Grafs taught me that overbooting isn't ideal for me. I don't want something that stiff or heavy. I'm not strong enough to break them in.

Incidentally, I have the "Egyptian" pattern of toe lengths (Big toe longest), but my toes are a bit shorter than average. I'm told I do not have high or low arches, nor an unusual amount of pronation or supination, but one leg is roughly 1/2" longer than the other. When I say I have narrow toes, I mean that both the big toe and little toe are squeezed into the other toes by most shoes or boots. I am willing and able to make or modify insoles and fill extra space inside. I find the upwards bend present in most figure skating boots around the ball somewhat uncomfortable. And I hate high heels. (I've sometimes used negative heel tennis shoes, or flat bottom sandals. So I obviously wasn't designed to figure skate, but am too stubborn to stop.)

 

[Diana Delafield]

In another thread
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/are-my-boots-broken-down.101143
Ic3Rabbit told the o.p. (a 64 kg female working on backspin and backflip) that Jackson Freestyles were inadequate for her because of her weight.

I am a 5'3.5" (162.3 cm), 140 pounds (63.5 kg) (unclothed, in morning, after voiding, to get reliable stats; otherwise my weight varies) male.

Am I too heavy for Freestyles too?

But I don't do any jumps over 1/2 rotation, or anything else fancy, and am too old to develop more advanced skills. I never got beyond Preliminary and (untested) Pre-Bronze ice dance, working now on basic USFS "Skating Skills", stroking, 3-turns, and very easy spins. I still do moderately deep edges, but I'm not strong enough to get down low in my knees, and may never recover my strength enough to do so.

The Freestyles appeal to me because I found a used pair fits me fairly well, which I have never encountered before because of my wide toes and narrow heels - though my small foot size - about men's size 6 or women's 7.5 in Jacksons - makes it impossible to find stock figure skating boots in stores that comes anywhere close to fitting. (The freestyles that fit are 7.5 wide womens, but I'm not sure how much being used has altered the shape.) Tight toe fit on my old Klingbeil Dance boots (which were grossly misfit by the wrong fitter despite being full custom) may have caused my metatarsal bone spurs (uncertain), so I view fit as extremely important. The uppers were slightly high volume for me, and the heels slightly too wide - but I added stuff inside to make them fit, and maybe that was because they were used and presumably heat or use molded to fit someone else.

The used pair won't last me long - less than half as stiff as new Freestyles, and they are starting to form creases despite my best efforts at filling space, but had planned to order new ones to replace them. But they are still a stiffer than my broken down Klingbeils.

One thing that might impact structural integrity - I plan to cut down or remove the heels, which are uncomfortably high for me, which was also true of my older boots. (Jackson's customer service has warned me that modification would void the warranty, and also that the heel has a hollow space inside, which I might have to partly fill.) So maybe the heels are structurally important, or the change in orientation would change stress directions beyond design limits. (Jackson rapid customs can have slightly shaved down heels, but not enough.) I plan to try that first on the used boots. I'm not sure, but the heel might just be held on by a bolt.

Would higher level Jackson boots fit the same? Could I safely use a somewhat higher level boot at my very basic level, or would that cause problems?

I have briefly tried a few other boots, including something by Risports (which fit surprisingly well, but broke down in a month, because they were single layer leather boots) and Graf Edmonton Specials, which I found awkward and heavy - though that is partly because they were too big. (I stuffed stuff inside and modified the insoles to make them fit, which I've had a lot of experience doing on many types of shoe and boot because of my wide toes and narrow heels, but that couldn't fix the stiffness or weight, or the fact that the size wouldn't let me bring my feet together as close as I had been taught. In any event, if they weren't oversized, the toes would have been too narrow.) But the Grafs taught me that overbooting isn't ideal for me. I don't want something that stiff or heavy. I'm not strong enough to break them in.

Incidentally, I have the "Egyptian" pattern of toe lengths (Big toe longest), but my toes are a bit shorter than average. I'm told I do not have high or low arches, nor an unusual amount of pronation or supination, but one leg is roughly 1/2" longer than the other. When I say I have narrow toes, I mean that both the big toe and little toe are squeezed into the other toes by most shoes or boots. I am willing and able to make or modify insoles and fill extra space inside. I find the upwards bend present in most figure skating boots around the ball somewhat uncomfortable. And I hate high heels. (I've sometimes used negative heel tennis shoes, or flat bottom sandals. So I obviously wasn't designed to figure skate, but am too stubborn to stop.)

Just out of curiosity, since you like to tinker and experiment, have you ever tried attaching figure skate blades to speed skate boots, which have no heels? (I have no idea if that could be done, having no interest in speedskating except as a spectator. Just wondered if you'd ever made that experiment.)

I doubt if you'd be able to attach figure skate blades onto boots whose heels you'd cut down. The boot sole isn't flexible enough to force into a flat line from toe to the back of the shortened heel. At best the blade would be slanted and you'd have to skate either on your toes or on your heels, making even basic stroking impossible and causing faceplants or falls on the back of your head inevitable.

Sounds as if your used Freestyles are the old Jackson last. A new pair will be their newer, different shape and may not fit an Egyptian foot. You might find Risports fit better if you're going for new skates this time. Can you get junior boots intended for boys? There's often an overlap in sizes and the junior boots are less expensive. (I usually buy my street shoes, size 4, in the children's department, and save money thereby.) Used boots aren't recommended because as well as being broken down, they've been shaped by someone else's feet after maybe being moulded to their feet to begin with. Otherwise, you asked about their stiffness, and the Freestyles are fine for a small adult skating at the beginner level technically. Let your fitter measure and recommend, and don't approach the fitting with preconceived ideas about your feet and then try to persuade them to change their advice. The fitter will suggest brands and models based on what they can see and clearly measure. Minutiae about weight placement during strokes and the feel just back of the ball of the foot and.........etc etc won't change the fitter's advice. Good luck!

 

[IceM]

Short answer yes, they are "too soft" for you, but it doesn't matter if you're not doing anything crazy and feel supported enough. You could go up to that 65 stiffness or so, but if you're not jumping, a softer boot is probably going to help instead of hinder, while working on the basics.

As to the heel height, you might want to look at Riedells. I think they have the lowest heels available. As to modifying the heel, you can't really just saw it off, at least not that much, as the blades still need to be mounted level. So you'd have to modify the sole too, not just the heels. Imagine if you cut the heels off from some high heel shoes but the sole was still sloped as it is, it's not really gona work.

As to the speed skates Diana suggested, I don't know about those, but I have actually seen figure blades mounted on a pair of hockey/freestyle skates, which do come with a lot lower heels.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Short answer yes, they are "too soft" for you, but it doesn't matter if you're not doing anything crazy and feel supported enough. You could go up to that 65 stiffness or so, but if you're not jumping, a softer boot is probably going to help instead of hinder, while working on the basics.

As to the heel height, you might want to look at Riedells. I think they have the lowest heels available. As to modifying the heel, you can't really just saw it off, at least not that much, as the blades still need to be mounted level. So you'd have to modify the sole too, not just the heels. Imagine if you cut the heels off from some high heel shoes but the sole was still sloped as it is, it's not really gona work.

As to the speed skates Diana suggested, I don't know about those, but I have actually seen figure blades mounted on a pair of hockey/freestyle skates, which do come with a lot lower heels.

I don't think speed skate boots would really work for figure skating. Not enough ankle support. I just wondered if Query had ever tried that since he likes to experiment with equipment .

But you're right about hockey boots having next to no heels, and I've seen one or two men using them with figure blades attached, at least for learn-to-skate classes. Whether it was to save money or it was an image thing, I don't know.

 

[IceM]

I don't think speed skate boots would really work for figure skating. Not enough ankle support. I just wondered if Query had ever tried that since he likes to experiment with equipment .

But you're right about hockey boots having next to no heels, and I've seen one or two men using them with figure blades attached, at least for learn-to-skate classes. Whether it was to save money or it was an image thing, I don't know.

Definitely not...optimal But people 100+ years ago did some amazing things with no ankle support to speak of, so it's possible with some strong ankles and good technique.

And I guess freestyle on hockey boots is a thing, and some guys out there might want to explore having a toepick too, but I don't know much about that either.

 

[Query]

I have a pair of very old speed skates - 35 or 40 years old by now, probably long track speed skates. But it would be pretty hard to mount any of my figure skating blades on them.

The hockey boots I own and have looked at have roughly the same heel height as figure skates - but the "heel" is in the blade holder, not the boot. I bought a pair that seemed to fit fairly well (hockey boots, male or female, mostly have wider toes than figure skates, and come much closer to fitting me. I'm not sure why.) But they are quite loose at the ankles (they are designed for external impact resistance more than internal ankle support) - which I was told by a skate tech is deliberate - it helps fast breaks. At the time, I didn't have a hot enough hair drier to heat mold them - but I recently dug up one, as well as a cheap heat gun. (Though I need to do something to drop the temperature on the heat gun - even on low, it's too hot.) I might give it a try.

As to modifying the heel, you can't really just saw it off, at least not that much, as the blades still need to be mounted level. So you'd have to modify the sole too, not just the heels. Imagine if you cut the heels off from some high heel shoes but the sole was still sloped as it is, it's not really gona work.

If I'm right about it being held on by a bolt in the Freestyles, I wouldn't have to saw anything. I know I would have to shim the mount (in both front and back, because of the difference in tilt) to fit. Part of my problem with high heels, in addition to pushing my limited flexibility, is that it forces me to lean too far forwards, and I have trouble coming back towards the center of the blade, after tilting forwards for a turn. I constantly feel off balance forwards, and have trouble avoiding the toe pick - and I've been skating since the late 1990s or early 2000's, so that isn't going away. So I don't want the same level footbed - part of the goal is to make reaching the toepick a little harder. But I'm not sure whether removing or cutting back the heel will make it too hard to reach the toe pick when I want to. I've tried rental skates which had lower heels. Reaching the toepick was hard in the rental skates with my flexibility limits - though that is partly blade shape.

I realize there are reasons for high heels, other than appearance (which is less applicable to males like me). I think part of the goal is to force you to bend your knees as deep as possible, and I've had skating instructors who tried to make me do that. (One loved to say "Sit!".) But I've had surgeries, and was forbidden to exercise for a long while. Without being specific, I am between 65 and 70 years old. I don't have the core strength to bend my knees deep, and am unlikely to get there again - especially since one of those surgeries was for a hernia, and I don't want another, which limits strength building exercises.

I've made temporary shims from athletic tape for other purposes. (I believe there should be no bending moment on blades to conform to boots.) But I saw a video where someone cut shims from a hockey puck. Sounds like a good durable material, that will hold its shape better.

I already cut and shape my own insoles to get a somewhat less curved footbed, among other things. But there are limits to that, because there is only so much space inside the boot over the foot.

To me, playing with equipment is itself fun. I never had the athletic potential to be a great skater, and started too late. Playing with equipment is to some extent an alternative thing to try to become good at. I wish I had the skills to make my own boots. I tried, using tape wrap methods, but that wasn't durable or stable enough. I probably lack the skills to use sock molds and alternate layers of (real or fake) leather and epoxy, which might be closer to the way real boots are now made.

 

[FethryDuck]

... maybe you could use hockey boots (which do not have high heels) instead of figure skating boots and mount figure skating blades ...? And, as it does not sound like you are doing triple axels you probably do not need super stiff boots but can go for sth which is more comfortable?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

If you're male, go up in stiffness. Premier 2802 is going to be what you'd need/I'd suggest if your foot is even meant to be in a Jackson.

 

[Query]

If you're male, go up in stiffness. Premier 2802 is going to be what you'd need/I'd suggest if your foot is even meant to be in a Jackson.

I'm not nearly as strong as some female skaters I've met. Especially the ones doing triples and pancake spins. Does that affect going up in stiffness? The used women's 7.5 Wide Jackson skates are the ones that have come closest in fit. (Aside from some very soft boots that didn't provide me enough ankle support, and/or broke down very quickly - but the softness let them conform to my feet.)

Is something better for me than Jackson? Or would you need more information?

I've made a lot of boot & shoe mistakes over the years. I could easily be making mistakes again.

None of the boot fitters I've talked to - including a few of the best - take measurements to determine optimal heel height. (Though I forgot to ask that of Avanta's main bootmaker.) Are there any you know of who do, and are great in other respects? I'm willing to travel within a few hundred miles of Washington D.C. - more if someone is really, really good.

 

[tstop4me]

None of the boot fitters I've talked to - including a few of the best - take measurements to determine optimal heel height.

This is not surprising. AFAIK, there are no standardized criteria for determining optimal heel height. If you have your own personal criteria (no need to present them here), you would need to specify to the fitter what measurements you want them to take.

 

[Query]

You may feel that there is no need to present criteria here. But I started this thread, for me.

There are few or no "standardized criteria" for almost anything relating to skating equipment. One could certainly devise hardware that would allow the skate tech to test whether it physically hurt to be at an angle that the boot forces you to. (When I got my Klingbeils, that was true. I had to have Klingbeil cut down the heels a little.) Or perhaps to test whether the skater feels balanced at a given angle, though I admit that might change with practice.

The skate techs I have asked have said they know of no such devices. But I feel they "should" exist.

The limitation that things might change with practice exists for other things too - e.g., at first a skater may not feel they can comfortably skate on an outside edge, or much of an inside edge, because of fear of falling - yet many skate techs and coaches do ask skaters about that.

Obviously, many of the potentially best skaters don't experience these issues. They tend to have very high flexibility, and very high foot, ankle, leg and core strengths, and have previously engaged in similar balance activities which are also hard to balance. Most of them are female, and have used high heel fashion shoes in other activities, unlike me. (Some medical books say people who spend a lot of time in high heel fashion shoes can injure themselves very badly in flat shoes, because their Achilles tendons adapt to wearing high heels, and aren't long enough for flats. There should be a way to test for that too.)

So I admit it might be difficult or even impossible to come up with criteria and test equipment that work for everyone. But, at least for people like me who have been skating over two decades, under a number of different coaches, and am no longer much afraid of falling, I feel some rough criteria should exist. Some way of experimenting with heel heights and related parameters that doesn't require us to buy many, many different boots and apply trial and error techniques.

Along these lines, I imagine modular trial boots and blade holders (akin to the old Ultima Matrix I interchangeable blade runner system, but with better designed bolts, and adjustable offsets and orientations, like some speed skates) that let you try many different heels, many different footbed shapes and tilts, and interchange many different blade shapes. And with many different boot liners, to adapt to different foot shapes and support requirements. I'm not good enough at mechanical things to make or design something like that - but maybe a good engineer (like you, tstop4me?) or machinist could do it. Once the skate tech had determined what was best for a skater, they could order the dedicated equipment. (Because the modular equipment might be too complex to stay reliable for frequent use, and too heavy.) An incredibly large percentage of skaters I've asked about it are completely happy with their boots and blades, and many others wonder whether they would be happy with other equipment options, so I think there would be a market for it.

 

[tstop4me]

Again, presenting your discussion here accomplishes nothing to advance your goal of better fitting boots for you now. If you want fitters to take specific measurements to suit your personal purposes, you need to provide them explicit instructions. Unless your criteria for good fitters include being clairvoyant.

 

[FethryDuck]

... talking heel hight; just curious:
Is the heel hight of a certain boot the same for the smallest and the biggest boot size?
I am saying this because at a given heel hight the slope of the sole would be much bigger for a small shoe size compared to a big shoe size.

... It's a difference if someone wears 8cm high heel stilettos having size 35 compared to having size 42 ...
Size 35 would make you pretty much standing on your toes ...

 

[Query]

Is the heel hight of a certain boot the same for the smallest and the biggest boot size?

I don't know.

 

[Query]

... talking heel hight; just curious:
Is the heel hight of a certain boot the same for the smallest and the biggest boot size?
I am saying this because at a given heel hight the slope of the sole would be much bigger for a small shoe size compared to a big shoe size.

... It's a difference if someone wears 8cm high heel stilettos having size 35 compared to having size 42 ...
Size 35 would make you pretty much standing on your toes ...

It took me a while, but I took some quick measurements:

The (external) heel heights of size 5.5 and 9 Jackson Womens' Freestyle (model) boots are both just over 2 inches. They do not scale with the size of the foot. Does that make sense?

My measurements were crude. I.e., maybe I should have measured the height of the heel inside the boot, and tried to take into account the heights of different parts of the (Aspire XP) blades.

When I measured a new pair of (only factory sharpened) Aspire XP blades on Freestyle boots, the left and right blades had significantly different profiles. Plus, different coaches say to use different parts of blades when doing turns and other moves. So it is hard to determine what foot angle is created during specific moves, which means it would be hard to claim Jackson is trying to create a specific foot angle on specific moves.

Can someone with a better understanding of heel heights explain this to me? Why do they do this?

I suppose one could say these are cheap boots and blades, and they are trying to keep manufacturing costs down. And I suspect that tstop4me would claim I have insufficient data to any conclusion - e.g., that I should make full shape and size measurements of different Aspire XP blades of many sizes.

Maybe. Jackson is a very reputable figure skate manufacturer. I would hope that they would try to make reasonably good design decisions.