Any Sasha updates?

[janetfan]

I will be careful. Over the years I have become a pro at avoiding choking on my beverages

The podium always felt off to me too, but for different reasons than yours.

Can we do this - and I would appreciate a response from ant!

In '98 - did Tara beat Michelle from the blade down?

Did Tara beat Michelle from the blade up?

If Tara could win by basically outperforming Michelle - and with a few flawed jumps - and little jumps at that - why is it so ridiculous to wonder about Sasha's LP at SLC?

Tara never saw the ice where she could hit better positions than Sasha.......

I think we need a wee bit of consistency here folks.

Did Irina beat Sarah from the blade down at SLC ? Did Michelle beat Sarah from the blade down at SLC?

However anyone answers - the blade down is not the ultimate thing in skating. It is part of it - but if some think it is the sole criteria then I say bring back school figures and we will see who has the best blades on the ice. :yes:

Watch the slow portion of Kristi's LP in '92 and then watch Midori. One girl had beautiful superior edges and the other was more like a "bull in the china shop."

Yet some think Midori should have won the OGM in '92 simply because in practice she could out jump Kristi.

The actual performance - the one under pressure is what counts - and I think Sasha had a better LP than either Irina or Michelle in SLC.

As far as "striped down choreo" goes - Michelle's SLC LP was pretty bare compared to what she had done in other years.

The problem is "reputation" is what most people are comfortable with - and not just the judges but fans too.

 

[Wicked]

Aunt Joyce reports "Word from a source says that Sasha Cohen is not skating well. She is training but is most certainly not back to her top form." Who knows what that actually means.

http://auntjoyceicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-and-that_17.html

 

[doug_log]

If I was judging back in 2002 Sasha would have won Silver in SLC as she outskated - and absolutely outperformed a lacklustre Michelle and Irina.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfT_F68KWao&feature=related

That podium should have been Sarah, Sasha and ............... not sure who for the bronze but probably Irina.

I hope Vancouver does not award medals to the favorites if they do not deserve it and earn it on the ice.

I've always thought this, too, Ms. Janet. Slutskaya wasn't/isn't my cup of tea. Where some saw power and bravura, I saw sloppiness. (Somehow, though, the same characteristics in Leonova don't bother me. Go figure.)

Should have been an American sweep, if you ask me. Sasha really skated well...perhaps her best LP ever? I think if she skates that jump content in Vancouver, she'd be a shoe-in for the podium, n'est-ce pas?

 

[demarinis5]

Can we do this - and I would appreciate a response from ant!

In '98 - did Tara beat Michelle from the blade down?

Did Tara beat Michelle from the blade up?

If Tara could win by basically outperforming Michelle - and with a few flawed jumps - and little jumps at that - why is it so ridiculous to wonder about Sasha's LP at SLC?

Tara never saw the ice where she could hit better positions than Sasha.......

I think we need a wee bit of consistency here folks.

Did Irina beat Sarah from the blade down at SLC ? Did Michelle beat Sarah from the blade down at SLC?

However anyone answers - the blade down is not the ultimate thing in skating. It is part of it - but if some think it is the sole criteria then I say bring back school figures and we will see who has the best blades on the ice. :yes:

Watch the slow portion of Kristi's LP in '92 and then watch Midori. One girl had beautiful superior edges and the other was more like a "bull in the china shop."

Yet some think Midori should have won the OGM in '92 simply because in practice she could out jump Kristi.

The actual performance - the one under pressure is what counts - and I think Sasha had a better LP than either Irina or Michelle in SLC.

As far as "striped down choreo" goes - Michelle's SLC LP was pretty bare compared to what she had done in other years.

The problem is "reputation" is what most people are comfortable with - and not just the judges but fans too.

Well you are entitled to your opinion about any competition.

So not only do I have to watch my coffee but I will have to start ducking because your digs are getting dagger like.

 

[janetfan]

Well you are entitled to your opinion about any competition.

So not only do I have to watch my coffee but I will have to start ducking because your digs are getting dagger like.

I was just trying to make a point - and was trying to use WORDS and not daggers.

Just my opinion as a fan and I don't think I am necessarily right - but see nothing wrong with expressing an opinion at a skating board.

Please use any "daggers" to stir your coffee OK?

I think the comparison to Tara/Michelle in '98 and Sasha/Michelle/Irina in 2002 is a valid one.

I think "performing" obviously counts in skating. It is the reason Tara beat Michelle in '98. She outperformed her. No way did those tiny, wrong edged jumps determine the outcome.

If one watches Sasha's performance at SLC - imo it was clearly better than either Michelle or Irina.

Of course, there are other thing to consider. But if the blade down is the determining factor there is no way Tara would have won in '98 without help from a group of judges.

No daggers - just some fair questions, OK :yes:

 

[gkelly]

Sasha really skated well...perhaps her best LP ever? I think if she skates that jump content in Vancouver, she'd be a shoe-in for the podium, n'est-ce pas?

But is there any reason to believe that she is currently capable of skating that jump content?

Even if she could, that would only put her in the running for a medal, not make her a shoo-in. It would depend how the other competitors skated. Several of the current competitors are capable of matching or exceeding that jump content with better GOEs and of scoring higher on one or more program components (esp. Skating Skills and Choreography IMO).

Cohen at her best would probably have an advantage on spins and spirals, and Performance/Execution, over the other potential medalists.

As performed in SLC, the 3Lz+3T combination would not be worth very much. Edge call on the lutz, downgrade on the 3T, bad landing = -3 GOE from a 6+1.3 = 7.3 base mark. 4.3 maximum for the combination and possibly a fall deduction as well. Under today's marking system, it's much more valuable to complete a successful 3-2 combo than to try a triple-triple and not quite succeed.

So say Cohen did six clean triples, only one lutz, with minorly negative GOE only on that one jump pass. That should definitely put her in contention. But if Ando and Kostner and Rochette each managed seven and Kim and Asada each managed six as well plus extra double axels, they would be "shoo-ins" as well. If more than three of them put it together at the same event, at least one of them's going to miss the podium. (And the fans would win by getting to see several great performances.)

Sure, it's wishful thinking/speculation that all or even any of those skaters will skate clean with that content. But that includes Cohen as well.

 

[janetfan]

But is there any reason to believe that she is currently capable of skating that jump content?

Even if she could, that would only put her in the running for a medal, not make her a shoo-in. It would depend how the other competitors skated. Several of the current competitors are capable of matching or exceeding that jump content with better GOEs and of scoring higher on one or more program components (esp. Skating Skills and Choreography IMO).

Cohen at her best would probably have an advantage on spins and spirals, and Performance/Execution, over the other potential medalists.

As performed in SLC, the 3Lz+3T combination would not be worth very much. Edge call on the lutz, downgrade on the 3T, bad landing = -3 GOE from a 6+1.3 = 7.3 base mark. 4.3 maximum for the combination and possibly a fall deduction as well. Under today's marking system, it's much more valuable to complete a successful 3-2 combo than to try a triple-triple and not quite succeed.

So say Cohen did six clean triples, only one lutz, with minorly negative GOE only on that one jump pass. That should definitely put her in contention. But if Ando and Kostner and Rochette each managed seven and Kim and Asada each managed six as well plus extra double axels, they would be "shoo-ins" as well. If more than three of them put it together at the same event, at least one of them's going to miss the podium. (And the fans would win by getting to see several great performances.)

Sure, it's wishful thinking/speculation that all or even any of those skaters will skate clean with that content. But that includes Cohen as well.

I have not seen the Ladies landing 6 or 7 clean triples this season? Oh yea, Akiko did and she came in third!

Which programs are you refering to where the top Ladies landed 7 triples this season?

ETA: Rachael landed 6 or 7 triples at SA.....and still came in second. My point is that I don't think any of the Ladies need 7 triples to win under CoP. Other aspects of their skating is important too - and to me that does make it more reasonable for a healthy Sasha to have a chance......if she actually skates

 

[gkelly]

I didn't say any of them had done it this season.

But they've all done at least once at least as recently as Cohen has.

If Midori Ito skated her 1988 Olympic long program at any Olympics since then or at 2010 Olympics, with adjustments to earn levels and meet well-balanced program restrictions, would she be a shoo-in for a medal?

It's all hypothetical, isn't it?

 

[silverlake22]

I have not seen the Ladies landing 6 or 7 clean triples this season? Oh yea, Akiko did and she came in third!

Which programs are you refering to where the top Ladies landed 7 triples this season?

Yeah seriously, the number of clean triples from the top ladies has been quite low this season.

Yuna:
TEB 5 triples
SA 3 (clean) triples
GPF 4 (clean) triples

MIki:
COR 5 (clean) triples
NHK 4 (clean) triples
GPF 4 (clean) triples

Mao:
TEB 4 (clean) triples
COR 2 (clean) triples....ouch

Joannie:
CoC 6 triples
SC 5 (clean) triples - should have been 4 but judges overlooked the first UR lutz
GPF 3 (clean) triples

So not a stellar season for any of them by any means. Looking at these numbers, I'm surprised Alissa didn't do better

 

[janetfan]

I didn't say any of them had done it this season.

But they've all done at least once at least as recently as Cohen has.

If Midori Ito skated her 1988 Olympic long program at any Olympics since then or at 2010 Olympics, with adjustments to earn levels and meet well-balanced program restrictions, would she be a shoo-in for a medal?

It's all hypothetical, isn't it?

Yes, I agree it is all hypothetical.
Sasha even showing up at Natls is appearing to be less likely.

But I am not so sure if she does show up she will get dinged much worse than any of the USA Ladies.

What appears to be BIG this season is performance ability. Watching Yuna's "Bond Girl" SP it is easy to see judges are awarding performance ability..

I have rarely seen better performers than Sasha. For that reason, with a 3-4 triple program I think Sasha would be in the hunt for a medal at Natls.

At the Olympics Sasha might need to up it to 5 triples for a chance at the podium.

 

[silverlake22]

Yes, I agree it is all hypothetical.
Sasha even showing up at Natls is appearing to be less likely.

But I am not so sure if she does show up she will get dinged much worse than any of the USA Ladies.

What appears to be BIG this season is performance ability. Watching Yuna's "Bond Girl" SP it is easy to see judges are awarding performance ability in a big way.

I have rarely seen better performers than Sasha. For that reason, with a 3-4 triple program I think Sasha would be in the hunt for a medal at Natls.

At the Olympics Sasha might need to up it to 5 triples for a chance at the podium.

You have a point, Alissa won by a substantial margin last year with 3 clean triples, and though she is a good performer Sasha is probably a bit better.

Yuna broke records with her 210 score at TEB with only 5 clean triples in the FS, and just won the GPF with about 190 points with a FS with 4 clean triples! Miki hasn't done more than 5 in her FS this season yet and Joannie seems to be having bug issues with her jumps, not to mention Mao.

Of course Sasha's jumps aren't as big and powerful as those of Yuna, Mao, Miki, Joannie, nor does she skate as fast or have the same quality of edging, but the fact that they are managing good scores without landing that many jumps is saying something.

 

[janetfan]

You have a point, Alissa won by a substantial margin last year with 3 clean triples, and though she is a good performer Sasha is probably a bit better.

Yuna broke records with her 210 score at TEB with only 5 clean triples in the FS, and just won the GPF with about 190 points with a FS with 4 clean triples! Miki hasn't done more than 5 in her FS this season yet and Joannie seems to be having bug issues with her jumps, not to mention Mao.

Of course Sasha's jumps aren't as big and powerful as those of Yuna, Mao, Miki, Joannie, nor does she skate as fast or have the same quality of edging, but the fact that they are managing good scores without landing that many jumps is saying something.

And let's not forget Sasha has such superior positions and extensions and the abilty to sell a program. No doubt Yuna is superior technically and athletically - but Yuna will not be at US Natls.

Will fans and judges be overwhelmed by Rachael if Sasha is also skating at Natls? Who do you think knows how to perform better in front of a crowd?

If Sasha shows and gives the worst jumping performance of her senior career - maybe 4 clean triples she will be hard to beat by a subpar field of USA Ladies.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sasha can sell chreography better than any skater out there, certainly the best of the American ladies. Alissa is pretty to watch, but I cannot really call her a performer, she seems too shy most of the time. Her new SP to Zoreo certainly has more "performance" than most of her programs, buy she does not really sell it unless her jumps are on.

The american ladies are just not that formidable for Sasha. She does not have to be back to 2006 form to beat them, but it would certainly be nice if she was.

 

[MKFSfan]

If Sasha shows and gives the worst jumping performance of her senior career - maybe 4 clean triples she will be hard to beat by a subpar field of USA Ladies.

The Sasha of old, at her peak, could be counted for 4-5 clean triples per program. I can only think of one time where she landed 6 clean ((meaning no hand down, no two foot, no turn outs)) triples in an international competition or at Nationals-and that was at the 2003 GPF when her only mistake was a popped loop.

2002 Olympics, once Sasha botched her 3z-landed so forward it's amazing she didn't put her hands down, she should never had attempted the 3t. She also had a funky landing on the solo 3flip. If that is a great performance...To each their own of course, but at least Michelle did land 5 clean triples at SLC-she had the fall (tht wouldn't have been a fall under COP) and a 2 foot. Her fall was not nearly as glaring as Sasha's "not fall" on the flip at 2006. Yes, that was not up to par with Michelle Kwan's standards of skating, but IMO, I would've had her 2nd after the LP, solely on skating quality and skills, given that both Irina and Sasha had their own issues. "Carmen" was my least fave program of Sasha's so I may be biased.

 

[Mathman]

On the question of "ankles up" versus "ankles down," I think fans watching on TV have a handicap in that the cameras hardly show the skater's feet at all. Plus, even when they do, how many casual fans know a Mohawn from a three-turn?

So viewers tend to judge a performance by criteria like how high the skater got her free leg up in the air.

To the judges, however, this still is not exactly a skating skill. A backflip looks cool and gets the audinece up on their feet, but it is generally not regarded as a steel-on-ice skating skill. I think that the ISU, while recognizing the performance aspect of their sport, still values really good skating.

Shizuka Arakawa, for instance, has great stroking skills and can accelerate effortlessly. Stuff like this counts for a lot, and rightly so, in my opinion.

 

[janetfan]

On the question of "ankles up" versus "ankles down," I think fans watching on TV have a handicap in that the cameras hardly show the skater's feet at all. Plus, even when they do, how many casual fans know a Mohawn from a three-turn?

So viewers tend to judge a performance by criteria like how high the skater got her free leg up in the air.

To the judges, however, this still is not exactly a skating skill. A backflip looks cool and gets the audinece up on their feet, but it is generally not regarded as a steel-on-ice skating skill. I think that the ISU, while recognizing the performance aspect of their sport, still values really good skating.

Shizuka Arakawa, for instance, has great stroking skills and can accelerate effortlessly. Stuff like this counts for a lot, and rightly so, in my opinion.

Positions above the ankle count too, posture counts, air position counts, choreography counts, musical IN counts, etc. and beautiful extensions count too.

If "ankle down" was the only thing that mattered it would be completely illogical to have done away with the figures. Apparently skating decided quite a while ago that "ankle down" was not the only thing that determined good free skating.

 

[Mathman]

If "ankle down" was the only thing that mattered it would be completely illogical to have done away with the figures.

I don't agree. "Ankle down" free skating is not the same as tracing figures.

Here are the criteria that the judges are supposed to be evaluating in the Skating Skills component:

* Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
* Flow and effortless glide
* Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
* Power/energy and acceleration
* Mastery of one-foot skating

This is all "ankle down" (well, maybe "knee down" ) But it is about flowing across the ice, not tracing intricate patterns at a snail's pace, like figures were. In practice, ISU judges tend to use the Skating Skills component to set each skater's benchmark for the other four components.

The place where Sasha shines is Performance/Execution:

* Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement. (I am not exactly sure what "intellectual involvement" means -- maybe it means, don't totally void out during your performance. )

* Carriage (A+ for Sasha.)

* Style and individuality/personality (A+ for Sasha.)

* Clarity of movement

* Variety and contrast

* Projection

For Choreography/Composition and Interpretation I do not think that Sasha has any particular edge over other skaters. Here are what the judges are looking for in these catagories.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

 

[chuckm]

Sasha can sell chreography better than any skater out there, certainly the best of the American ladies. Alissa is pretty to watch, but I cannot really call her a performer, she seems too shy most of the time. Her new SP to Zoreo certainly has more "performance" than most of her programs, buy she does not really sell it unless her jumps are on.

The american ladies are just not that formidable for Sasha. She does not have to be back to 2006 form to beat them, but it would certainly be nice if she was.

Sasha didn't do much 'selling' of her choreography at her last competition, Worlds 2006, as she stumbled her way through jumps in her FS. At this point, we don't know what Sasha is capable of when it comes to her jumps. At her last public appearance (at Rockefeller Center), she didn't attempt any jumps at all.

So I think Wagner, Flatt and even Czisny are formidable for Sasha, as she hasn't attempted a 4-minute FS in nearly 4 years. Landing 3 jumps and stumbling through the rest could leave her in the dust if those ladies can land 6 jumps. USFS isn't going to fall over themselves to reward her if she shows that she is not ready to compete, and I think Sasha knows that. Which is why I tend to believe she won't even show up.

 

[janetfan]

I don't agree. "Ankle down" free skating is not the same as tracing figures.

Here are the criteria that the judges are supposed to be evaluating in the Skating Skills component:

* Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
* Flow and effortless glide
* Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
* Power/energy and acceleration
* Mastery of one-foot skating

This is all "ankle down" (well, maybe "knee down" ) But it is about flowing across the ice, not tracing intricate patterns at a snail's pace, like figures were. In practice, ISU judges tend to use the Skating Skills component to set each skater's benchmark for the other four components.

The place where Sasha shines is Performance/Execution:

* Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement. (I am not exactly sure what "intellectual involvement" means -- maybe it means, don't totally void out during your performance. )

* Carriage (A+ for Sasha.)

* Style and individuality/personality (A+ for Sasha.)

* Clarity of movement

* Variety and contrast

* Projection

For Choreography/Composition and Interpretation I do not think that Sasha has any particular edge over other skaters. Here are what the judges are looking for in these catagories.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

Thanks, ankle down (knee down too) all good skills just as the PE you mentioned. I didn't say SS were the same as figures but they are related and the emphasis is from the ankle down. But a skater needs soft kness and very good balance to excel at figures. Figures were not just about the ankles down.

On choreo it might depend on the choreo itself. As far as interpretation Sasha was always among the best.

Some of the choreo that Tat did for Sasha ranks with the best I have seen.

The Carmen that Sasha used at SLC was done by Sasha and Nicks I believe.
It may have been simplified to let Sasha concentrate on jumps....

Some of it is a matter of taste, and is very subjective. Personally I thought Sasha moved extremely well to music and she demonstrated dance type skills that were superior the most of the Ladies she competed against.

ETA: Here is some skating I love and even with a couple of mistakes it is easy enough to appreciate how great some of Sasha's qualities were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwzzAhW6FHo

The dress is one of my favorites too

 

[R.D.]

Aunt Joyce reports "Word from a source says that Sasha Cohen is not skating well. She is training but is most certainly not back to her top form." Who knows what that actually means.

http://auntjoyceicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-and-that_17.html

Anyone surprised by this?











Ha! Didn't think so.

She won't be at Nats. Besides, even if she was, it would be really boneheaded of her to do what some are suggesting and just waltz into Nats with 3, 4 triples. The one thing you NEVER do is underestimate your competition, take it for granted. That's just asking for a butt-whooping. Occasionally strong teams slip into this mentality and that's when upsets usually happen.