Any Sasha updates?

[Olympia]

She sure does flutz. In fact, so do a lot of other skaters. Which makes me ask you tech experts: which ladies DON'T flutz? I'm fairly sure Michelle does a pure lutz, on the correct edge. Who else does? Am I correct that YuNa's jumps are pretty textbook? What about Mao? Anyone else?

 

[Tinymavy15]

She sure does flutz. In fact, so do a lot of other skaters. Which makes me ask you tech experts: which ladies DON'T flutz? I'm fairly sure Michelle does a pure lutz, on the correct edge. Who else does? Am I correct that YuNa's jumps are pretty textbook? What about Mao? Anyone else?

Michelle had a pure lutz back in the day. After she left Frank it got more and more flutzy and by 2005 it was a flutz. Mao has been trying VERY hard to fix her flutz, with varying degrees of success. Her takeoff edge is being corrected, but she often gets skittish about the jump now and singles or pops it. Because she continued to get the edge calls when she rotated it fully Mao has largely stopped performing it. Sasha will not have that luxury, as she has no triple axel to fall back on. Joannie has a true lutz after she went through 2 rough seasons re-working her technique. It paid off with a silver at worlds in LA. All the american ladies flutz, but I think Mirai has the best true lutz of them.

 

[antmanb]

She sure does flutz. In fact, so do a lot of other skaters. Which makes me ask you tech experts: which ladies DON'T flutz? I'm fairly sure Michelle does a pure lutz, on the correct edge. Who else does? Am I correct that YuNa's jumps are pretty textbook? What about Mao? Anyone else?

The problem you might find is that the ladies who don't flutz will tend to 'lip their flips! So the most important question I think would be which of the Ladies actually do both a true Lutz and a true Flip. I think the list is quite small.

Contrary to the blanket "all the US ladies flutz" i'm fairly certain that Meissner 'lips and does a true lutz. Czisny also has a textbook Lutz but does lip too.

Yuna has a very shallow edge on her triple flip (as it should be) but does sometimes get "!" on her flip, i think she may have received a controversial "e" as well.

As for the ladies who can do both jumps off the top of head ones I know for sure:

Rochette
Kostner
Poykio
Phaneuf
McCorkell
Emily Hughes (did do when she was properly completing - i suspect the triples of these jumps are beyond her capabaility at this point in time).

Ant

 

[Okami]

3Lz consistently without steps preceding it[/URL], but when she attempted it out of steps she doubled or popped it and landed it cleanly only once or twice.

She completely skipped 3Lz only once - at World Team Trophy, where she chose to do 3A-2T & 3F as her jumps in the SP.

According to Tatiana's commentary at WTT, Mao will not give up 3Lz in the Olympic season - she will do it in the LP instead.

Am I correct that YuNa's jumps are pretty textbook?

At last season's CoC, 4CC and Worlds she received edge calls. She was said to plan to work on fixing it in the off-season. It was also said that she will attempt 3Lz-3T instead of 3F-3T.

Miki Ando used to lip as well, but fixed it in the 07/08 off-season and has not received an edge call since.

 

[MKFSfan]

OK, here's what she did in 2005-2006:

TEB: she did a sequence, but it was 2A^3T and she got -1.00 GOE

Nationals: did 3T^3S, -2.43 GOE

Olympics: did 3T^3S, -1.14 GOE

Worlds: No sequence in QA and FS. That may be because in both programs, she had bad landings on the 3T (-1.4 GOE in QA and -1.0 in FS).

However, it seems that if Sasha rarely landed the sequence cleanly in the past, it hardly seems worth it. She loses 20% of the start value of the two jumps, and then on top of that she gets gigged for double-footed or wonky landings.

At the Olympics, she received only 6.36 for her sequence, only 0.27 more than Arakawa got for a clean 3S+2T.

That hardly compares to Kim's 3F+3T (9.90), Ando's 2A+3T (8.70) or Mao's 3A+2T (10.10).

Thank ou for the details. I was contemplating looking them up, but was too lazy!

Interesting. In that case, perhaps it would serve Sasha better to do a 3salchow/2t or 2lp instead of the sequence. I know she then only attempts 6 triples but give her history (and the fact she can no longer do the extra step she was doing back in 2006), if she can pull off the 3/2 combo, she may have a better shot of going clean. I doubt a 2ax/3t is within reach, and I don't think she's had much success with the 2ax^3t sequence either.

 

[museksk8r]

which ladies DON'T flutz?

Just off the top of my head. . .
Yu-Na Kim
Joannie Rochette
Miki Ando
Carolina Kostner
Sarah Meier
Laura Lepisto
Kimmie Meissner
Alissa Czisny
Alena Leonova
Cynthia Phaneuf

 

[nylynnr]

Good list. It's true lots of skaters don't flutz. IMO it's at least equally common for skaters with what were previously considered strong flips -- Weir, Joubert, Gedevanishvili, etc. -- to use the outside edge take-off. Many top men do this; again JMO but often they get a !, not an e, because the technique on the flip isn't as obvious. The above list would be even shorter if it consisted of skaters who have been called for neither a flutz nor a "lip," and who have a full complement of triples in their programs.

 

[antmanb]

Good list. It's true lots of skaters don't flutz. IMO it's at least equally common for skaters with what were previously considered strong flips -- Weir, Joubert, Gedevanishvili, etc. -- to use the outside edge take-off. Many top men do this; again JMO but often they get a !, not an e, because the technique on the flip isn't as obvious. The above list would be even shorter if it consisted of skaters who have been called for neither a flutz nor a "lip," and who have a full complement of triples in their programs.

You mean like the list i made in post #163?

Ant

 

[nylynnr]

You mean like the list i made in post #163?

Ant

Well, no, because I was speaking of men and women, and JMO, some of the ladies in your list don't qualify.

 

[Olympia]

Thanks so much, Muse, for your list!

I don't think it's a coincidence that those are all skaters I like watching. Sara Meier is especially enjoyable to watch: original and artistic. And how nice to see both Kimmie and Alissa on the list! I maintain hope that Kimmie will regain her excellence and that Alissa will be able to show hers to its full advantage.

I also have to say, it's fascinating (and pleasing) to me that Finland has such depth in the ladies' field. Isn't it great when a country not normally thought of as a powerhouse gets to be in the spotlight. (The extreme example being how exciting it is to watch Tugba when she does well.) My feeling is always that skating benefits not just from a broader field of performers but from a broader audience. People tend to get interested in a sport if their countrymen/women are doing well in it. That's how the sport stays healthy, and how it gets air time...even if it's just on YouTube.

 

[antmanb]

Well, no, because I was speaking of men and women, and JMO, some of the ladies in your list don't qualify.

Sorry I was merely answering the question about Women asked by Olympia hence the lack of men in my list.

Just out of interest - who do you disagree with in my list?

EDIT: flutzing appears to be quite rare amongst the men and lipping is more common, but overall I think more men do both a true lutz and true flip. Off the top of my head:

Lysacek
Abbot
Chan
Chipeur
Verner
Contesti
Van de Perren
Kozuka
Oda
Schultheiss
Berntsson
Lutai

I'm sure there's more.
Ant

 

[nylynnr]

Just out of interest - who do you disagree with in my list?

I don't think several of the skaters on your list can be considered to have a full complement of the triples (i.e., Salchow, loop, flip, Lutz, toe), by virtue of the fact that doing a jump very occasionally in competition, or doing it years ago but not currently, does not a full complement make. I also think top men "flutz" and are called on it.

However, like others my main point is it is virtually impossible under this system for a skater (especially a lady) to go out, do correct take-offs on all the jumps, and fully rotate them on a consistent basis. There is just too much scrutiny. You're going to get called for something. George Rossano has an interesting essay on the topic of under rotations (not edge calls) on his site, that proposes a judging solution (www.iceskatingintnl.com; I apologize if already mentioned). Much as I prefer IJS to 6.0, I think the emphasis on "if it's not perfect, leave it out" hurts the sport, especially at lower levels when you're trying to convince kids to take their lumps with the judges and stay in skating.

 

[sillylionlove]

FYI...I don't know a flutz from a lutz from a flip from a lip!!!!

 

[R.D.]

fyi...i don't know a flutz from a lutz from a flip from a lip!!!!

+ 1.

Or hell, even the jumps from one another. I can tell edge jumps from toe jumps from an axel- but anyone can learn that quickly if they know the definition of each.

doesn't really make that much of a difference to me...they look the same in the end

 

[*Sniper*]

+ 1.

Or hell, even the jumps from one another. I can tell edge jumps from toe jumps from an axel- but anyone can learn that quickly if they know the definition of each.

doesn't really make that much of a difference to me...they look the same in the end

Couldn't be truer with me as well.

Even after I've become familiar with the terms, I am just amazed at the fans on this site for their ability to tell lips and flutz from oops and whatnot, right as they are watching it on tv or on the internet.
How do you do that?

I'm also a big ice hockey fan, but much envy the fans who complain during games about the lack of ice time for certain players or line combinations, etc, because, for me, once the puck drops, it's just all one big chaos.

So my point is.... thank goodness for you knowledgeable fans out there! :thumbsup:

 

[*Sniper*]

OK, here's what she did in 2005-2006:

TEB: she did a sequence, but it was 2A^3T and she got -1.00 GOE

Nationals: did 3T^3S, -2.43 GOE

Olympics: did 3T^3S, -1.14 GOE

Worlds: No sequence in QA and FS. That may be because in both programs, she had bad landings on the 3T (-1.4 GOE in QA and -1.0 in FS).

However, it seems that if Sasha rarely landed the sequence cleanly in the past, it hardly seems worth it. She loses 20% of the start value of the two jumps, and then on top of that she gets gigged for double-footed or wonky landings.

At the Olympics, she received only 6.36 for her sequence, only 0.27 more than Arakawa got for a clean 3S+2T.

That hardly compares to Kim's 3F+3T (9.90), Ando's 2A+3T (8.70) or Mao's 3A+2T (10.10).

Thanks a lot for the post.
It really answers the questions that I had on Sasha's jumping ability.

 

[antmanb]

I don't think several of the skaters on your list can be considered to have a full complement of the triples (i.e., Salchow, loop, flip, Lutz, toe),

Apologies i completely failed to read the "full complement of triples " part of your original post...and i had even had my coffee by then

Ant

 

[Medusa]

EDIT: flutzing appears to be quite rare amongst the men and lipping is more common, but overall I think more men do both a true lutz and true flip. Off the top of my head:

Lysacek
Abbot
Chan
Chipeur
Verner
Contesti
Van de Perren
Kozuka
Oda
Schultheiss
Berntsson
Lutai

Lysacek gets nailed for the Lip quite often, Verner gets nailed for the Lip nearly every time. A KIm-Asada-bot-video reveals that Chan is a slight lipper, though he wasn't called on it yet. Van der Perren gets actually called for a Flutz from time to time (he is always going for the Triple Loop as the solo jump in his shorts, maybe because of that). Lutai got nailed for the LIp with a clear "e" at Europeans. Chipeur got edge warnings for his Lip at some competitions.

 

[hurrah]

I'm really amazed that there are so many repetitive threads regarding who flutzes, who lips and who's got the full set of triples.

 

[antmanb]

Lysacek gets nailed for the Lip quite often, Verner gets nailed for the Lip nearly every time. A KIm-Asada-bot-video reveals that Chan is a slight lipper, though he wasn't called on it yet. Van der Perren gets actually called for a Flutz from time to time (he is always going for the Triple Loop as the solo jump in his shorts, maybe because of that). Lutai got nailed for the LIp with a clear "e" at Europeans. Chipeur got edge warnings for his Lip at some competitions.

Thanks for all of that Medusa! I couldn't remember if Verner lipped or not so i gave him the benefit of the doubt. I was at Kevin VDP getting called for flutzing! I thought he had a great lutz - i'll have to check out the protocls for his events.

Other than that, clearly I should just give up!! Coffee or no coffee my brain apparently isn't working any more...bring on the weekend

Ant